Let's cut through the chase: Jesus didn't exist.
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
Godless said:
This argument is getting kind of dumb, and you are sounding like a pharisee. Listen to what Jesus said:
Mark 2: 16 & 17
How much worse would those prisoners be if they didn't have a God telling them it is wrong to steal, kill, etc.? :bugeye:
You can argue statistics all you want to. Christianity is not a license to sin -- hence they are in prison.
You think you are better than they are but you aren't, you're actually worse.
Again from Jesus to the pharisees:
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davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
(Q) said:
Let me post what you said first, and my responses:
You originally asserted(Note the probably word used):
There is probably a proportionate number of theist vs. non-theist in prisons. So, about 85% of Americans have professed to a relgion and about the same percentage of inmates are also professed theists.
I then asked:
Where's the evidence that the inmates were theists when they commited the crime?
You said:
The same statistics that show how many bacame theists in prison.
I then said and asked:
I'm struggling to understand what you mean by this.
Are you saying that a non theist commiting a crime that becomes a theist in prison, was always a theist?
Your response(Note the omission of the word probably):
I'm not sure where you're finding these meanings in what I'm saying, I started out with a simple percentage of theists to non-theists in prisons, and somehow you've infered something completely different.
It's no surprise you're struggling with that.
Care to actually answer a question? Also, if you want your theory to have any credence post some facts.
No relevance.
I admit that I believe in something, you don't.
Considering the title of the thread then the burden of proof is on the person claiming Jesus didn't exist.
Maybe articles that the one you believe in should not mention God at all then, and just try to explain behaviour from a natrualistic point of view.
Well judging by how confident you are regarding this, you must think you're a prophet or something, how ironic.
Like what decisions? Gay marriage?
This is sad, but so too is taking prayer out of schools in my opinion. It swings and roundabouts.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Godless said:
Those statistics are completely out of context with what Q and I are discussing(apart from the atheist is growing, which I already agreed with).
Actually, if the numbers used in that atheist poll are as low as it suggests then it is worthless.
If you have anything original to add give it a shot.
davewhite04 said:
Perhaps my numbers were not entirely accurate, this link states that the number of atheists in prisons is only a meager (.2%.)
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
This article talks about the affiliation of theist to non-thiests in prisons and discusses that ratio as a false dichotomy, which is the point I made above regarding proportionality.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html
Heres an article discussing the problem of cult and other dangerous religious group recruitments in prisons. It appears to be the most popular of conversions in prisons. We don't see atheist to theist conversions, rather it is theists converting to other religions.
http://www.equip.org/free/JAP160.htm
Then, will I have to guess the different subtleties of your faith in regards to other Christians or will you explain those as we go along?
I completely agree, the answer as to why you need to believe in such things would be interesting to hear. And that's usually the crux of the biscuit; the need to believe.
That's true, and it appears there is nothing other than the bible that claims he did exist. Again, his existence is completely based on blind faith.
You've changed stride again, what's your point? I look to books of science which do not mention gods, thanks.
And just to refresh your memory, the article above discusses how morality was most likely not divinly inspired.
Is that what you think? Anyone who can make a prediction is a prophet? Does that include all scientific predictions?
Can you compare a so-called prophets guesswork to that of a prediction?
Seriously, Dave.
That's one, yes.
What does prayer accomplish, Dave? Have you prayed recently to your god to provide food to the starving children of the world?
And how do you provide for those not of your faith? Why should my tax dollars be spent in someones quest for their god? That's what churches are for, Dave.
Schools are for learning about the world around us, not for pie in the sky fantasies.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
(Q) said:
If you try to click on what at first looks like a reliable link to the federal bureau of prisons (to the right of the apparent statistics for atheists in prison in 1997) it will take you to the holysmoke site also posted by yourself, hardly reliable, in fact it's just plain and simply smoke to make people think it's official but in fact is rather pathetic and very deceitful.
Ah the holysmoke site. The introduction:
By Rod Swift
I have expanded the figures to provide a % of the total respondents, and I have ranked them (they were presented to me alphabetically). These stats were obtained from their computer on 5 March 1997.
Dear Mr. Swift:
The Federal Bureau of Prisons does have statistics on religious
affiliations of inmates. The following are total number of
inmates per religion category:
And it goes on to provide a list of numbers...
Do you actually believe Mr Swift?
The opening lines of this website(least it is a little honest):
This document discusses some of the statistics available pertaining to prison incarceration and religious affiliation. This is not an in-depth study. Accurate, reliable statistics on this subject may not be readily available. Statistics (reliable or not) have been used by various writers to support two different, contraditory conclusions.
Confirms that statistics aren't readily available, maybe they should have pretended to be Mr Swift.
First of all, can you ask the person who runs this site to maybe increase the font size?
The site waffles away with no official source to the statistics it deems true. And you I take it, believe every word?
Can you explain yourself this time?
I already explained all you need to know.
This is precisely why religion will be with us for as long as we live on this planet.
As is His non existance.
And it proves nothing, yet you believe it, very scientific.
Yet, nobody argued his existence back then when it was easily provable/disprovable.
Here's what the apostle Paul said in I Cor. 15:3:
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
And last of all he was seen of me also,
In other words if you don't believe He came back from the dead why don't you ask some of the people there that saw the whole thing. Some of them are still alive -- go talk to them yourself - yah dumb asses.
Nobody was arguing whether Jesus existed in the first place -- because it is so like "duh" to argue the obvious. Now if you want to argue about the resurrection, that's debatable now but it wasn't then when any common body could go down there and argue with a few hundred people that saw it themselves. tisk tisk
So what is the conclusion here -- if everyone gave up their religious beliefs on morality that there would be less people in prison? That doesn't even pass the common sense test.
I can't speak for prisoners, but in corporte america I wish there were more christians. They are so much easier to work with. They have a friendlier attitude. They are usually more conscientious, definately more trustworthy.
Here's a quote from our pastor a couple of sundays ago concerning corporate restructurings and the "biggie sized" executive salaries that go along with it:
"I couldn't even conceive of cutting my staff to reduce the cost of running this church. It's unthinkable -- I love these people."
What a contrast between the self-serving corporate world and a church that wants to serve others!
As for your argument that "non-believers are on the increase" and "what a wonderful world it will be"- well, they were in the majority in Noah's day too.
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davewhite04 said:
The statistics did come from the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Are you saying the Bureau's statistics are pathetic and deceitful? What reason would they have to do that, Dave?
The opening lines of this website(least it is a little honest):
You conveniently left out "Accurate, reliable" which the author states support two contradictory conclusions - what's the problem with that?
What's there to explain, the statistics are from the US Department of Justice? It says so right in the article?
How do you keep missing this stuff?
Because people NEED TO BELIEVE? That's why religion will always be here?
If you admit to that, then you have to admit religion is a scam.
No, that is in the complete lack of evidence to support that assertion.
Isn't it you who've made such an effort in pointing out burden of proof? Where is the proof to theists claim of his existence?
It shows that gods were not required to deliver morality, since those moralities were practiced long before said commandments and were practiced by animals who could not have received said commandments.
You've not shown anything otherwise.
You haven't shown how man received rules of conduct other than the written word, in fact, you can't even show those words weren't just written by common men who based those words on the way they already conducted themselves.
The article makes a good point about the commandment stating that we honour our parents, and makes no suggestion to honour our children. Nowadays, children are one of our most valuable resources.
Could it be that children were treated much differently when those words were written, back in the time when mankind was most ignorant?
Oh, and I guess going from your same twisted logic, to find evidence Adam existed, why not just ask Eve?
Even IF Jesus existed and even IF he performed miracles and even IF he had risen from the dead and even IF he ascended to heaven, why should we trust peasants who claim to have witnessed it? Especially since it wasn't written in scriptures until 60 years after the alleged resurrection. Since when can we ever trust people stating what they saw. If we believed everything 'eye witnesses' told us we would believe aliens were visiting Earth, the loch ness monster, ghosts etc... Oh wait, most people believe that shit too...
But of course what actually happened is that perhaps a man existed, who achieved certain things, and upon his passing, self-indulgent stories were told by his followers that grew more and more rediculous. But of course people in those days (and even today) would have no problem believing it... Because at the end of the day, they want to believe it.
Make the most of this Jesus tale, because nothing like it will ever occur again because myth can not spread in such a way in a world with 24 hour media and in a world with slightly less superstition and greater scientific knowledge. A man who walks on water? The media would be over him like a rash these days, and exposing the lies behind it no doubt.
Well since social stability is higher in areas with higher levels of atheism, yes.
And there's good reason why civilisation doesn't work that way.
This is the funniest you have posted so far. You mean to say the church is not self-serving? LOL!
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KC said,
So you prefer aristocrasy for eye witness accounts? Do the texts of the bible look like they were written by unlearned people?
The answer is really so simple: nobody argued the fact that Jesus existed when he was there. So it's presumptuous to come along 2000 years later when all the eyewitnesses are dead, and then start questioning his existence -- you weren't there and neither was I.
Your "ask Eve" argument isn't an analogy compared to the christianity movement following the death of christ. Like Paul said, go to Jerusalem and ask anybody if Jesus was resurrected.
Do you believe it is possible that science can advance far enough to resurrect someone from the dead? Why not? After all we are just an arrangement of molecules, aren't we?
I disagree, and you sound rather ignorant. I am part of the church -- I can speak for myself. So tell me KC, when I served in a rest home ministry for 9 years of my life, went in on sunday afternoons when I would be very glad to stay at home and take a nap, helped drooling patients get around, held my breath at the smell of the diaper pails, patiently and lovingly wheeled people around in wheelchairs while they talked deleriously with alzheimers disease, working for no charge (free), tell me KC, was I being selfish and self-serving? If you think I was "self-serving" then you're a jerk, and there is really nothing more to talk about.
So you prefer aristocrasy for eye witness accounts? Do the texts of the bible look like they were written by unlearned people?
The answer is really so simple: nobody argued the fact that Jesus existed when he was there. So it's presumptuous to come along 2000 years later when all the eyewitnesses are dead, and then start questioning his existence -- you weren't there and neither was I.
Your "ask Eve" argument isn't an analogy compared to the christianity movement following the death of christ. Like Paul said, go to Jerusalem and ask anybody if Jesus was resurrected.
Do you believe it is possible that science can advance far enough to resurrect someone from the dead? Why not? After all we are just an arrangement of molecules, aren't we?
I disagree, and you sound rather ignorant. I am part of the church -- I can speak for myself. So tell me KC, when I served in a rest home ministry for 9 years of my life, went in on sunday afternoons when I would be very glad to stay at home and take a nap, helped drooling patients get around, held my breath at the smell of the diaper pails, patiently and lovingly wheeled people around in wheelchairs while they talked deleriously with alzheimers disease, working for no charge (free), tell me KC, was I being selfish and self-serving? If you think I was "self-serving" then you're a jerk, and there is really nothing more to talk about.
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davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
(Q) said:
There you go again getting your knickers in a twist...
That first site had(still does) a link titled "Federal Bureau of Prisons" next to the apparent number of atheists in prison(1997). When you click on it where should it take you?
For anyone interested in looking at it, here it is
No I didn't.
I wrote:
This document discusses some of the statistics available pertaining to prison incarceration and religious affiliation. This is not an in-depth study. Accurate, reliable statistics on this subject may not be readily available. Statistics (reliable or not) have been used by various writers to support two different, contraditory conclusions.
Oh so it must be right. I get the dinstinct impression that you seemingly chose what to believe to fit your own agenda without the use of critical thinking, very scientific.
The only thing I have missed was the simpsons last night at 6pm, luckily I recorded it.
Yes, as long as civilisation remains on this planet people will always turn back to their creator, once they swallow their pride and wake up. Some might be lost but hopefully not many.
Really, how did you conclude that sherlock?
The way I see it is this. People who do not believe that Jesus walked the earth have one logical choice, that is to say, I don't know if He did or not. Any other assertion is faith, as there's absolutely no evidence to suggest otherwise.
That's another thread, why don't you support your claim and stay on topic?
Morality was practised long before the commandments, heard of Noah?
That article is a sermon, and is faith based.
Did I write the article?
When was the last kid made a knight of the realm?(Maybe it was in a Harry Potter book somewhere dunno?)
Do you know what honour means?
I don't know, they probably were, so what?
Woody said:
But then the Bible is not a historical document. And there are no historical documents for the existence of someone who comes back from the dead, although there are many tales of such a thing.
I doubt they had sci-fi technology 2,000 years ago. But conveniantly this man is the son of God, so anything is possible yadadada.
Firstly, secularists do more for charity according to statistics. Also, the American church is a business, exploiting dumb people to make money and become rich. Exploiting their faith to make $$$'s. How can you follow these rich pastors who speak out against capitalism when they themselves are rich from exploiting evangelicals?
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
KennyJC said:
So what type of document is it?
How much charity work do you do personally? What per centage of your paycheck goes to charity?
Then why doesn't he cut his staff, and go for the big pay raise from all the money he saved? It leaves a lot more money for himself, doesn't it?
BTW if you think the pastorate is the road to riches then I'm the one laughing now, LOL. We don't send our money to Sun Yung Moon.
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Well a document that talks about people raising from the dead, adam and eve (not to be confused with Adam and Steve), Noahs Ark, 6 day creation etc etc... It is a story book. Not unlike Lord of the Rings.
I am a charity, therefor it goes to myself. But still I am one example, it still remains that secularists give more to charity statistically. I don't see why that should be surprising since liberals tend to care more about whats going on around to the world, whereas the religious right only care if it's to start a war or go grab some oil, or force their own values on to others.
Why does the continued employment of a few detract from the overall greed of the church? I have seen the way the church in america advertises itself compared to over here in the UK. So many different churches trying to lure people to make more $$$. Then you have these mega churches to which tens of thousands of people flock for the big production to line the pockets of a pastor and buy his merchandise.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
davewhite04 said:
I will flick through it when I get home. Although I am not saying there can't be some half truths in the Bible which can be looked at. But come on, have you read the bible? I'm not even talking about the obvious stuff like Adam and Eve and young Earth, but pretty much the whole thing is not historical. Half of it is so obviously fiction, that the other half can not be trusted as being historic.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
KennyJC said:
No problem, I'll let you mould your own version of reality.