Let's cut through the chase: Jesus didn't exist.

[KennyJC]

If you ask me, lack of religion is what's wrong with our country today, that combined with your type of naturalistic thinking. But hey, we all have our opinions, we haven't lost them yet.

What country would that be? Are you aware that secularist countries are better off socially than countries where religion is prominant? But still, theists like yourself are under the misguided belief that more God's are needed to keep society in check whilst the opposite appears to be true.

If you deny this (which I'm sure you will), you can wait till I get home to show you the facts.

 

[davewhite04]

What country would that be? Are you aware that secularist countries are better off socially than countries where religion is prominant? But still, theists like yourself are under the misguided belief that more God's are needed to keep society in check whilst the opposite appears to be true.

If you deny this (which I'm sure you will), you can wait till I get home to show you the facts.

It all depends on what religion you're talking about? When I talk religion I mean Christianity, which I now know I should have mentioned.

Which Christian dominant nation is in dire straits?

Mixing of religions in society can and does cause unrest, this doesn't mean that all religions should be abolished though just because of the misguided actions of the few.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

It all depends on what religion you're talking about? When I talk religion I mean Christianity, which I now know I should have mentioned.

Which Christian dominant nation is in dire straits?

Mixing of religions in society can and does cause unrest, this doesn't mean that all religions should be abolished though just because of the misguided actions of the few.

*************
M*W: Well, those "misguided few" have slaughtered millions, in some cases, their own people, in the name of Christianity. They have burned innocent women they have branded as witches. Hitler and his boys set out to eradicate the Jews. Stalin murdered 50 million of his own people. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor for King and Country. Muslim terrorists took down the World Trade Center towers with two airplanes, the Pentagon with another, and killed 40 others on United 93, all in the name of religion. But, let's not forget the pedophile priests. They may not have killed anyone, they simply destroyed their spirit. More people have died because of the religion of Christianity than all the wars in the history of the world.

Religion divides and conquers.

 

[davewhite04]

More people have died because of the religion of Christianity than all the wars in the history of the world..

Really, where did these people die?

 

[KennyJC]

It all depends on what religion you're talking about? When I talk religion I mean Christianity, which I now know I should have mentioned.

All religions. Even Christian vs Christian. A Christian nation with low levels of atheism vs a christian nation with high levels of atheism. The one with higher levels of atheism is socially more stable.

Which Christian dominant nation is in dire straits?

Look for yourself:

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/faculty/zuckerman/atheism.html

Although I am sure you will return with one of the countries that happens to be christian and isn't in "dire straits". The important thing to remember it is all about comparison with secularism/high levels of atheism to high levels of religion. I think the only example of a healthy society populated by christians that doesn't have high levels of atheism is Ireland, although that is drifting towards secularism anyway.

Mixing of religions in society can and does cause unrest, this doesn't mean that all religions should be abolished though just because of the misguided actions of the few.

If it causes unrest, one religion can not simply lay back and say "well it's not my fault", because you know other religions are saying the same. The answer is, it's religion full stop to blame.

Really, where did these people die?

I'm sure you already know, but here is a start. And I don't even think that counts indirect religious violence - By that I mean cases like the Iraq ware were Christians typically feel they are better than Muslims, hence can start war... which probably wouldn't happen if Iraq was a christian country.

 

[(Q)]

I simply pointed out a flaw in your philosophy.

You did no such thing, Dave.

First, you made it such that I had to assume everything you were talking about because you failed or refused to explain yourself. Then, you used the fact that I had to assume that and threw it back in my face.

Secondly, since you forced me to assume, I had to assume you were talking about biblical commandments, not the laws of nations, which by the way, vary from one country to another. Again, in order for you to have pointed out a flow in my 'philosophy,' you'd have to first identify what laws and which country you referred.

So, which is it, Dave? Biblical commandments or the laws of a country?

No, what I'm saying is that back in the day of Mose's the earth wouldn't have been a bed of roses.

Of course it wasn't, but that doesn't mean there were no honest, loyal or trustworthy men, does it, Dave? Civilisations would have never survived if there weren't any, that is only too obvious, Dave. People wouldn't have been able to live with one another in groups or tribes if everyone was doing harm to each other. Does that make any sense, Dave?

You create a thread and I'll point out a flaw.

Fair enough. Keep an eye for it.

It simply means that during the time of Jesus' ministry there were people that needed Him more than others. That's why He didn't mingle with the righteous He mingled with the sinners of that day, thus suggesting that there were people who needed Him alot more then others. Murderers, prostitutes, tax collectors etc...

hehe - I like the last one - 'tax collectors' - good one.

But it does show that you're willing to admit there were people who weren't murderers, prostitutes and tax collectors. To claim they were 'righteous' is not correct since they hadn't recieved and such revelations. Perhaps they were loyal, honest, trustworthy people without the aid of such alleged revelations?

I can explain that. Christians are human just like everyone else.

That's not really an explanation, Dave. Of course, Christians are human, but that does not answer the question as to why they would break the very rules that guides their conduct, and why they would risk their salvations and the risk of going to hell? Is being human more important?

I'm a human, Dave, but I'm not a Christian, I don't need those rules to conduct my life. If you were a Muslim, would the rules that govern Christians apply to you?

A group of people need guidelines, this is evident today.

No, it is not evident at all, that is where you're completely wrong. And its very simple to understand why you're wrong.

The world today is governed by theists, those that have already been given guidelines and rules, the very rules you profess they need. You're going around in circles, Dave.

What the world needs today is the elimination of those guidelines and rules handed down through biblical scriptures or commandments and allowed to govern themselves based on the social interactions and issues governing mankind.

Your system of divine guidelines and rules has failed. That is what should be evident to you, Dave.

 

[davewhite04]

I'm sure you already know, but here is a start. And I don't even think that counts indirect religious violence - By that I mean cases like the Iraq ware were Christians typically feel they are better than Muslims, hence can start war... which probably wouldn't happen if Iraq was a christian country.

And there were more deaths reported in this link then all the wars combined was there?

Maybe you should think twice before sticking your neck out for a known waffler.

 

[KennyJC]

You'll need to take that one up with Medicinewoman as she said that, not me. I was merely drawing your attention to deaths directly caused as a result of your religion. And as I said indirect deaths as a result of your religion would of course be far more.

 

[davewhite04]

First, you made it such that I had to assume everything you were talking about because you failed or refused to explain yourself. Then, you used the fact that I had to assume that and threw it back in my face.

Secondly, since you forced me to assume, I had to assume you were talking about biblical commandments, not the laws of nations, which by the way, vary from one country to another. Again, in order for you to have pointed out a flow in my 'philosophy,' you'd have to first identify what laws and which country you referred.

So, which is it, Dave? Biblical commandments or the laws of a country?

You said this:

I don't need rules to govern my conduct nor to make me the type of person I am. No one does.

Now did you forget to insert "bible" before rules? Or are you claiming that you need no rules? Simple yes or no.

Just to remind you I said something along the lines of lets remove the courts and police.

Do you simply admit a simple typo or do you start another "Dave, I'm starting to wonder if you're pulling my leg because you haven't read any books."?

Of course it wasn't, but that doesn't mean there were no honest, loyal or trustworthy men, does it, Dave? Civilisations would have never survived if there weren't any, that is only too obvious, Dave. People wouldn't have been able to live with one another in groups or tribes if everyone was doing harm to each other. Does that make any sense, Dave?

Did my reply say otherwise?

Fair enough. Keep an eye for it.

=)

But it does show that you're willing to admit there were people who weren't murderers, prostitutes and tax collectors. To claim they were 'righteous' is not correct since they hadn't recieved and such revelations. Perhaps they were loyal, honest, trustworthy people without the aid of such alleged revelations?

I don't honestly know why you're getting on my case about this? Maybe I made a typo saying that there were no honest, trustworthy men before the commandments?

That's not really an explanation, Dave. Of course, Christians are human, but that does not answer the question as to why they would break the very rules that guides their conduct, and why they would risk their salvations and the risk of going to hell? Is being human more important?

When you become a Christian life can most of the time get more difficult, mainly due to living in a world that is fast becoming atheist and is full of stories of priest perverts etc. that all hit your heart because of your faith. Some people cave in, as being a Christian doesn't make you a god or something.

I'm a human, Dave, but I'm not a Christian, I don't need those rules to conduct my life. If you were a Muslim, would the rules that govern Christians apply to you?

No idea, I suspect not.

The world today is governed by theists, those that have already been given guidelines and rules, the very rules you profess they need. You're going around in circles, Dave.

Almost right, we're going around in circles is more accurate.

What the world needs today is the elimination of those guidelines and rules handed down through biblical scriptures or commandments and allowed to govern themselves based on the social interactions and issues governing mankind.

You have a very bleak outlook on life today, you watch too much news. If you believe we can reach some sort of utopian society by changing some rules(or removing them?) then, not wanting to offend you, you're very naive. Incidently have you got any ideas as to what any of these rules would be(if there was any)?

Your system of divine guidelines and rules has failed. That is what should be evident to you, Dave.

Get out to the beach more, or the countryside eat out look at how lucky you are!

 

[(Q)]

You said this:

I don't need rules to govern my conduct nor to make me the type of person I am. No one does.

Now did you forget to insert "bible" before rules? Or are you claiming that you need no rules? Simple yes or no.

Just to remind you I said something along the lines of lets remove the courts and police.

Do you simply admit a simple typo or do you start another "Dave, I'm starting to wonder if you're pulling my leg because you haven't read any books."?

No, personally, I don't need rules of conduct, bibilical or otherwise. And you don't need to go shouting down the streets to close up the courts and prisons, remember, there are still plenty of theists out there breaking biblical rules, hence they NEED rules of every kind to restrain themselves. And they'll break those as well.

Aren't the prisons and courts full of theists on trial and convicted?

Did my reply say otherwise?

Isn't that what you've been alluding too?

I don't honestly know why you're getting on my case about this? Maybe I made a typo saying that there were no honest, trustworthy men before the commandments?

Good, then we agree on that. Then we can also agree that those values were NOT handed down through divine intervention, they were borne of social interactions amoungst people and groups of people. We can move on now.

When you become a Christian life can most of the time get more difficult, mainly due to living in a world that is fast becoming atheist and is full of stories of priest perverts etc. that all hit your heart because of your faith. Some people cave in, as being a Christian doesn't make you a god or something.

Dave, you should be more worried about what is happening to Christianity than the fact the world is fast becoming atheist. Perhaps Christianity really does not agree with the way we should be living our lives, and vice versa.

No idea, I suspect not.

Haven't you looked at Islam, Dave? How do you know its not the religion for you? How do you know Christianity is correct if you haven't checked out what the other gods are saying?

Almost right, we're going around in circles is more accurate.

No, Dave, I'm not the one putting the cart before the horse, you are.

You have a very bleak outlook on life today, you watch too much news.

Bleak outlook, Dave? How can you say that? My outlook on life is very optimistic, I see mankind doing great things. It is the theist who has a bleak outlook on life as they see their lives as a mere stepping stone to an afterlife, and it is the afterlife they place as the most important aspect of their lives.

You even said yourself that becoming a Christian, "life can most of the time get more difficult."

If you believe we can reach some sort of utopian society by changing some rules(or removing them?) then, not wanting to offend you, you're very naive.

I'm not looking for a utopian society, that's what theists are trying to achieve by spreading their religions.

I'm merely looking for a life free from the ignorance, dogma and restraint that religion demands. I'm looking for a life where people use their resources to help mankind as opposed to giving it to churches. I'm looking for a life where mankind is the primary objective, not gods.

If you consider that a utopian society, then you should join me.

Incidently have you got any ideas as to what any of these rules would be(if there was any)?

You tell me, you're the one who brought it up.

Get out to the beach more, or the countryside eat out look at how lucky you are!

I do Dave, I know exactly how lucky I am.

I am lucky to be part of an evolutionary process and species in which intelligence is one of the primary branches that has developed within that species. It gives me the ability to understand and appreciate the world around me.

Look how unlucky you are, Dave. You're chained and shackled to an ideal that prohibits you to understand the world around you, that demands you worship something that has never been shown to exist, that demands you live a life that is considered secondary to an afterlife, also something that has never been shown to exist, that treats you like a criminal from the get go and places restraints on that which was never meant to be restrained, that categorizes between what is good and what is evil where no such things existed before.

Yes, Dave, I am the lucky one.

BTW - I started that thread, check the Religion section, you can't miss it.

 

[davewhite04]

No, personally, I don't need rules of conduct, bibilical or otherwise. And you don't need to go shouting down the streets to close up the courts and prisons, remember, there are still plenty of theists out there breaking biblical rules, hence they NEED rules of every kind to restrain themselves. And they'll break those as well.

Aren't the prisons and courts full of theists on trial and convicted?

Who's joking here? Or are you just showing exteme prejudice against theists? I don't know...

Isn't that what you've been alluding too?

If you have read the Bible and understood it, then you would know why the ten commandments were issued. This doesn't mean that no honest person existed outside the Israelite tribes.

Good, then we agree on that. Then we can also agree that those values were NOT handed down through divine intervention, they were borne of social interactions amoungst people and groups of people. We can move on now.

I believe that all humans have some good in them at some stage, and some never lose it, and I think it's been the case since the beginning. This does not however prove that this was not divinely inspired.

Dave, you should be more worried about what is happening to Christianity than the fact the world is fast becoming atheist. Perhaps Christianity really does not agree with the way we should be living our lives, and vice versa.

I do worry about Christianity too.

Haven't you looked at Islam, Dave? How do you know its not the religion for you? How do you know Christianity is correct if you haven't checked out what the other gods are saying?

I have the Koran in english, but apparently allah's finest miracle loses it's holy touch when translated into any other language.

No, Dave, I'm not the one putting the cart before the horse, you are.

.

Bleak outlook, Dave? How can you say that? My outlook on life is very optimistic, I see mankind doing great things. It is the theist who has a bleak outlook on life as they see their lives as a mere stepping stone to an afterlife, and it is the afterlife they place as the most important aspect of their lives.

All you've done so far is complain about our eyesight. Maybe you greatest compliment to man is that we managed to become trustworthy through the evolutionary process, but who are you complimenting?

You even said yourself that becoming a Christian, "life can most of the time get more difficult."

Just because it's difficult doesn't mean we have a bleak outlook, some Christians do as do some atheists I suppose.

I'm not looking for a utopian society, that's what theists are trying to achieve by spreading their religions.

Wrong religion.

I'm merely looking for a life free from the ignorance, dogma and restraint that religion demands. I'm looking for a life where people use their resources to help mankind as opposed to giving it to churches. I'm looking for a life where mankind is the primary objective, not gods.

Good luck.

If you consider that a utopian society, then you should join me.

Your building a house on sand there.

You tell me, you're the one who brought it up.

You were the one who said we should remove our current constraints.

I do Dave, I know exactly how lucky I am.

I am lucky to be part of an evolutionary process and species in which intelligence is one of the primary branches that has developed within that species. It gives me the ability to understand and appreciate the world around me.

Look how unlucky you are, Dave. You're chained and shackled to an ideal that prohibits you to understand the world around you, that demands you worship something that has never been shown to exist, that demands you live a life that is considered secondary to an afterlife, also something that has never been shown to exist, that treats you like a criminal from the get go and places restraints on that which was never meant to be restrained, that categorizes between what is good and what is evil where no such things existed before.

Yes, Dave, I am the lucky one.

Your just full of good humour.

BTW - I started that thread, check the Religion section, you can't miss it.

Certainly, when I get a moment.

 

[(Q)]

Who's joking here? Or are you just showing exteme prejudice against theists? I don't know...

In a way, yes, I'm joking. There is probably a proportionate number of theist vs. non-theist in prisons. So, about 85% of Americans have professed to a relgion and about the same percentage of inmates are also professed theists.

If you have read the Bible and understood it, then you would know why the ten commandments were issued. This doesn't mean that no honest person existed outside the Israelite tribes.

Depending on what faith you are will determine how the ten commandments were understood. This is also covered in that article, Morality without god, in the thread I created. We can discuss this issue at length there.

I believe that all humans have some good in them at some stage, and some never lose it, and I think it's been the case since the beginning. This does not however prove that this was not divinely inspired.

But, you're talking in terms of good and bad, which are relative terms and were only introduced as concepts through religion. You can interpret something from scriptures as good only to find the exact same concept in another religion is considered bad.

One would have to show that it was divinely inspired, and not such that they can only show that "maybe" it was. If not, then we have to fall back on what we do know about social interactions and ignore the concept of divinity since there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

I do worry about Christianity too.

No need to worry, Dave, Christianity will soon be but a mere memory of mankinds past follies in its attempt to subjegate the masses.

I have the Koran in english, but apparently allah's finest miracle loses it's holy touch when translated into any other language.

Yes, I keep hearing that from Muslims all the time. Is there anything inspiring you found in the Qu'ran at all?

All you've done so far is complain about our eyesight. Maybe you greatest compliment to man is that we managed to become trustworthy through the evolutionary process, but who are you complimenting?

I've been trying to make a point, but I guess it went over your head.

Just because it's difficult doesn't mean we have a bleak outlook, some Christians do as do some atheists I suppose.

Funny though, the only bleak outlooks I've heard here are from theists. I can't recall a bleak outlook from a singel atheist.

Good luck.

Most likely it won't happen in my lifetime, but soon enough anyways that my children might live in a religious free society.

Your building a house on sand there.

Why do you say that?

You were the one who said we should remove our current constraints.

No, I said "religious restraints" ie. the so-called religious moral values.

Your just full of good humour.

Naturally, that's my outlook.

 

[Woody]

You did of course claim that it contained wisdom, but although I've asked you 4 times now it seems you cannot show where.

The book of Proverbs is an example of wisdom in the old testament. The majority of the people in the world think it contains wisdom whether or not they believe in God or the bible. I think some of Confucious' proverbs are quite wise, though I do not believe in Confucianism. Here's an interesting quote from the source:

As with many other prominent figures such as Siddhartha Gautama, Jesus, or Socrates, humanity does not have direct access to Confucius' ideas. Instead, humans have recollections by his disciples and their students . This factor is further complicated by the "Burning of the Books and Burying of the Scholars", a massive suppression of dissenting thought during the Qin Dynasty, more than two centuries after Confucius' death. What we now know of Confucius' writings and thoughts is therefore somewhat unreliable.

Hmm, sounds like the asian equivalent of christian persecution in the early days. Quite an analogy.

So this thread started as "Jesus didn't exist." Well how about Confucious?

Persecution goes a long way when it tries to erase the evidence, now doesn't it?

 

[SnakeLord]

Well, actually you can but I get the gist. Ever heard of the zebra swallowtail butterfly? the caterpillar is cannabilistic.

If you 'got the gist', you wouldn't have bothered with your little pictures trying to argue semantics.

What does free will mean to you, assuming there is a God?

- The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

When it comes down to the crunch though, your choices will always be guided by your nature. Your nature determines your choice, and no.. you did not create your own nature.

Correct. Imperfect does not compare to perfect.

So then why annihilate people for not being as good as you? Does your god not understand that man will always always fall way short of the mark?

Wrong. He sent them quail until they were completely sick of eating quail, then returned them to the manna diet. Yes he was ticked about it. I don't know how many were killed, but he gave his reasons:

See there's the thing. They didn't even get to eat the quail before getting killed, but you say they "got sick of eating quail". If that were the case how sick do you think they also got from living on nothing but manna? As they even remarked: as slaves they got cucumber, meat, fish, leeks, onions, melons, garlic..

In the hands of god they get nothing but manna - and when they ask for something different for a change - an essential variety in their diet, god kills them all. It was so bad that even moses had to make a point to god - asking why god happens to get all these animals killed for him, and all this meat for a being that does not even need to eat, and yet his own people have to suffer on nothing but flakes of manna.

'All that day and night and all the next day the people went out and gathered quail. No one gathered less than ten homers. Then they spread them out all around the camp. But while the meat was still between their teeth and before it could be consumed, the anger of the LORD burned against the people, and he struck them with a severe plague.'

They all got killed.. because they wanted something to eat other than the flakes they had been forced to live on for their entire journey.

Your god doesn't like feeding people and you blame the people? Lol.

Those that despised, and wished they were back in Egypt as slaves were killed for being so thankless. Not a good way to treat your superiors, no?

From one slavemaster to another. The difference being that the first slave master fed them whereas the second killed them for asking for food.

Wrong.

Not wrong.

He gave them the meat they asked for.

But killed them before they managed to eat it.

Do you like a t-bone steak? What if you had to eat it every day, every meal, for a long, long time? You'd probably get sick of it too?

I tried manna for a month. Man did I get sick of it.

You're making my point Woody.

And what would you do if you saw the english channel parted between england and france, walked across it, and stood on the other side?

I'd pray to your god to cease with his actions. We don't want French people over here.

However, I did once see a very rare instance of the tide going out for miles. I walked out and saw fish, crabs, urchin thingys, eels etc. It was quite awesome - but not divinely done. If only these people had any knowledge of the planet they lived on, they probably would have given a proper explanation of the events.

So why did God kill him, do you think it was masturbation? As I recall, Onan was having sexual intercourse when this happened.

You should know why god killed him. Can't say I'd impregnate my dead brother's wife either. However, the point would be that the seed was wasted.. which also occurs with masturbation - and many religious folk have been living in fear of that for the past few millenniums.

Where did you get that from? Please show the verse

Same verse - which still to this day seemingly scares the shit out of many a religious man.

As a religious person that wouldn't want to upset god, shouldn't you just avoid pulling on your pinkie just incase it is an upset to your god? What harm would it do for you to avoid doing it just in case?

So he didn't even love his own parents? Why not?

Because he didn't.

The hebrew word used is "yare' {yaw-ray'}", and the meaning of it includes "reverance"

But every single biblical scholar/translator forgot about that and used 'fear' instead? Quick Woody, phone them up and let them know.

How do you reconcile your interpretation of Gen 22:12

Don't point that at me.. I didn't write the damn thing. It's not my interpretation, it's every bible writers interpretation. As you disagree with them I suggest you take it up with them.

unless you're just twisting scriptures to prove your own point?

'Fraid not Woody, you're the one disagreeing with every translation of the bible.

I'm not scared of God.

Prove it.

Sorry, but I don't watch any movies. Tell me who he is/was. Also, an apology is in order. Actually two since you've said it twice.

Movies? Where did I mention that Frodo was from a movie? Oops Woody, you slipped up there. Apology withheld.

---------

If you ask me, lack of religion is what's wrong with our country today

Where you from? If it's America, it's a 75% religious country. How can you blame the minority for the problems?

I didn't make an excuse, I spelt it out using the Bible, and considering we are debating the Bible I can't see the problem.

You're telling me jesus says you don't have to listen to the old laws unless you're a levitic jew?

And you would know, I actually have first hand experience and you're wrong.

Yes, I would know. I see countless children that come from broken and unhappy homes. Your one specific case doesn't mean you can provide an all-round answer. You're not the only person on the planet Dave.

Generally speaking, children that live with both their parents - who no longer have a loving relationship - have more problems than those where the parents have separated.

Your first response to me was about being right or wrong, or more specifically does commiting adultery make you a bad man.

That was a final little question to satisfy my curiosity about how you view people that have affairs. However, as far as the actual debate goes, (your debate that adultery is unnatural, I showed you to be wrong).

God. But our free will determines who we become.

But your free will is guided by your nature - and that nature is not created by you, (but in your words by god) - and thus he is also responsible for the decisions made by our "free will".

I guess you're the typical person who can give but can't take eh?

Not exactly, no.. but if it makes you feel better then sure.

Actually responding to your message is a sign of love

Lol.

Not really, reading the OT allows you to become familar with your creator.

That comes from a book? Damn, there I was thinking you all had some kind of 'real' relationship with this being. All from a book.. lol.

Also, there are prophesies in there, none of which have been dud, that are coming to fruitation now.

Such as?

Considering you have been unable to comprehend my explanation of the rules marshalled by the levite priests, and are not willing to explain what wisdom means iyo so far, then I don't think I'll post more material to confuse you yet.

A quick way to try and pass the buck. Listen Dave, you made a statement that the OT contained wisdom. I asked where... It's a simple question Dave and yet you're doing everything in your power to avoid answering it. Bizarre.

----------

The book of Proverbs is an example of wisdom in the old testament

Actually it's interesting that you mention proverbs. Earlier you were trying to debate against my statement that your god wants you to fear him first and foremost. On the very first page of Proverbs you have this:

'The fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge'.

So Woody, I guess you have no knowledge considering you said you have no fear of god.

Funnily enough it appears again on page two of proverbs:

'Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the lord.'

Guess you hate knowledge Woody? Funnily enough it appears again on page 3 of proverbs and many other times after including:

'To fear the lord is to hate evil' and 'He whose walk is upright fears the lord'. You don't fear the lord Woody.. does that mean you like evil and don't walk upright?

I suppose it's all about personal opinion, but I don't really consider much of it 'wisdom'. I'm sure it was wise to those 'levite jews' Dave keeps mentioning, but to modern day man? Hardly.

The majority of the people in the world think it contains wisdom whether or not they believe in God or the bible.

You asked them all?

So this thread started as "Jesus didn't exist." Well how about Confucious?

Start a confucious thread and we'll discuss it.

 

[davewhite04]

In a way, yes, I'm joking. There is probably a proportionate number of theist vs. non-theist in prisons. So, about 85% of Americans have professed to a relgion and about the same percentage of inmates are also professed theists.

Where's the evidence that the inmates were theists when they commited the crime?

Depending on what faith you are will determine how the ten commandments were understood. This is also covered in that article, Morality without god, in the thread I created. We can discuss this issue at length there.

Well since I'm a Christian, lets concentrate on Christianity.

One would have to show that it was divinely inspired

It depends on who is making the claim.

No need to worry, Dave, Christianity will soon be but a mere memory of mankinds past follies in its attempt to subjegate the masses.

Where is your evidence to support such a claim?

Funny though, the only bleak outlooks I've heard here are from theists. I can't recall a bleak outlook from a singel atheist.

Really.

No, I said "religious restraints" ie. the so-called religious moral values.

What religious constraints are you referring too?

 

[davewhite04]

Where you from? If it's America, it's a 75% religious country. How can you blame the minority for the problems?

England.

You're telling me jesus says you don't have to listen to the old laws unless you're a levitic jew?

No, common sense does.

Yes, I would know. I see countless children that come from broken and unhappy homes. Your one specific case doesn't mean you can provide an all-round answer. You're not the only person on the planet Dave.

If you have evidence that actually proves your claim then post it.

That was a final little question to satisfy my curiosity about how you view people that have affairs. However, as far as the actual debate goes, (your debate that adultery is unnatural, I showed you to be wrong).

No you didn't, and your being deceitful once again. I said that adultery to me is unnatural, but it is all about perspective. So where did you prove that wrong?

But your free will is guided by your nature - and that nature is not created by you, (but in your words by god) - and thus he is also responsible for the decisions made by our "free will".

What are you waffling on about now?

Not exactly, no.. but if it makes you feel better then sure.

It doesn't make me feel better.

That comes from a book? Damn, there I was thinking you all had some kind of 'real' relationship with this being. All from a book.. lol.

It's not all from a book, and I said nothing to suggest that.

Such as?

Luke 21:8
And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them.

A quick way to try and pass the buck. Listen Dave, you made a statement that the OT contained wisdom. I asked where... It's a simple question Dave and yet you're doing everything in your power to avoid answering it. Bizarre.

Why do you evade my request? I am more than willing to answer your question, but I want to establish what wisdom means to you first.

 

[Woody]

SL said,

So then why annihilate people for not being as good as you? Does your god not understand that man will always always fall way short of the mark?

The same reason anyone kills a cockroach or a fly in their house. They're nasty. God didn't tell you to get nasty but you are, and so are the other people he killed. We are closer to being like cockroaches than He is to being like us. You disagree that Adam and Eve actually had a choice to be sinless (perfect) like God or sinful like we are. You resent that you are born with the nature God abhors, yet he gave you a way out and you won't take it: Jesus who died on the cross so you wouldn't have to. You forget that God is not one of us. I'd rather be his loving pet than go the slaughterhouse routine. Actually he makes a great master. You have a dog, maybe you could understand that kind of relationship.

By the way I'm still waiting for your apology for calling me a liar concerning some "Frodo" whom I don't even have a clue about. Might I pull up one of your own quotes:

I fail to see why I should have to answer questions for you to have the decency to apologise for your lies. Generally people just say sorry and done with it. You are seemingly doing everything in your power to avoid having to do the right thing. I personally find it cowardly.

Take a look at yourself.

The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

ok, like A&E. You claim they can't know what sin is without being sinners first. Jesus knows what sin is -- actually he was "made sin" according to the bible -- so Jesus blows your A&E argument right out of the water, along with your list of excuses. Are you going to call Jesus a sinner too? He could have sinned if he wanted to -- the devil tried hard, but Jesus passed where A&E failed.

you did not create your own nature.

I have two natures and you have one. The old nature will die, but the new nature will continue. In the next life the old nature will be a worm in the dung heap for you, but the new nature will be a well springing forth to everlasting life for me. God made the natures to be thus. When you're a worm in the crap pile, you can say God made you that way -- ok if that's the nature you want to have then keep it. I personally prefer a different nature that God promises I can have by my own choice. I suppose maggots like to eat rotten flesh, but I don't have to chose to be one, and neither do you.

As they even remarked: as slaves they got cucumber, meat, fish, leeks, onions, melons, garlic..

I don't know why they only had manna to eat. Maybe their shit didn't stink. 600 thousand turds a day -- think about it. They didn't have the disease problems before. Sounds like manna took care of some sanitation engineering for such a crowd. Ever been to an outdoor event where 600 thousand people are gathered for a day without porta-johns or running water?

But killed them before they managed to eat it.

So all of the nation of Israel died in the wilderness. Is that what you are saying --none of the survivors had to eat quail until they were sick of it after the manna was taken away?

However, the point would be that the seed was wasted.. which also occurs with masturbation - and many religious folk have been living in fear of that for the past few millenniums.

yeah, the catholics. Ever wondered why there isn't a commandment in the bible that says: Thou shalt not spill the seed? Isn't that exactly what happens with a nocturnal emmission, being a male of the species, surely you've had one before.

As a religious person that wouldn't want to upset god, shouldn't you just avoid pulling on your pinkie just incase it is an upset to your god? What harm would it do for you to avoid doing it just in case?

When it's time, I don't see any harm in it, and it can be done in just a few seconds if that long. Sure it has a pleasure sensation, but so does a pee when you're about to have renal failure. However, if you're going to fantisize or read pornography while you're doing it, and it becomes an addiction -- yeah big problem.

Quick Woody, phone them up and let them know.

Elizabethan English is not modern vernacular, hence I went to the Hebrew. By the way, the people that translated are dead.

"By faith, Abraham" pretty well clears up any confusion. Might I pull up one of your quotes:

If you 'got the gist', you wouldn't have bothered with your little pictures trying to argue semantics.

So why make a semantical argument out of fear/reverance/faith just because their meanings overlap?

Movies? Where did I mention that Frodo was from a movie? Oops Woody, you slipped up there. Apology withheld.

It was a guess, since I've never heard of him before except from you. Your response sounds childish. Tell me where I am supposed to know about Frodo whatever, so you can proceed with your manly apology.

Start a confucious thread and we'll discuss it.

In other words, you don't want to admit the analogy between Confucious and Christ vis-a-vis in about the same period of human history. Both existed, but we don't have original parchments from either of them. We do however, have a huge influence factor from two "claimed to be real people" that were personally witnessed by thousands of people. This is a very strong case for historical fact. The fact that their doctrine was unpopular in its day is even more convincing evidence that these men did, indeed, exist. As for the fictional characters such as gilgamesh, et al that were claimed to be real - this was religion mandated from day one by the political authorities -- believe it or else without any resistance -- who believes it now? This was not the case for the first couple of centuries with either Confuciousism or christianity. The price for believing was very high.

Prove it.

Concerning love of God, I don't have to prove anything. I believe A&E did not fear God before they sinned. They had no reason to fear God. Jesus forgives my sins, hence I have no reason to fear God, but I will give Him the respect He is due.

 

[(Q)]

Where's the evidence that the inmates were theists when they commited the crime?

The same statistics that show how many bacame theists in prison.

Well since I'm a Christian, lets concentrate on Christianity.

So, we go with your version, what is that, exactly?

It depends on who is making the claim.

Does it matter?

Where is your evidence to support such a claim?

Statistics, atheism is increasing over Christianity.

What religious constraints are you referring too?

The same ones theists consider a way of conduct, of course.

I'm getting the feeling you're not interested in discussion, Dave. Let's forget the whole thing, we're not getting anywhere.

 

[davewhite04]

The same statistics that show how many bacame theists in prison.

I'm struggling to understand what you mean by this.

Are you saying that a non theist commiting a crime that becomes a theist in prison, was always a theist?

So, we go with your version, what is that, exactly?

I follow the teachings of Christ. I believe He walked the earth and was crucified on the cross, and rose on the third day. I believe He is the Son of God.

Does it matter?

Well the burden of proof is with the claimant.

Statistics, atheism is increasing over Christianity.

Yes, I believe you're correct, this does not however validate your conclusion that Christianty will become extinct(or any other religion).

The same ones theists consider a way of conduct, of course.

How do they affect you personally?

I'm getting the feeling you're not interested in discussion, Dave. Let's forget the whole thing, we're not getting anywhere.

If I wasn't interested I wouldn't be posting. But it's OK if you want to bow out, no worries.

 

[(Q)]

Are you saying that a non theist commiting a crime that becomes a theist in prison, was always a theist?

I'm not sure where you're finding these meanings in what I'm saying, I started out with a simple percentage of theists to non-theists in prisons, and somehow you've infered something completely different.

It's no surprise you're struggling with that.

I follow the teachings of Christ. I believe He walked the earth and was crucified on the cross, and rose on the third day. I believe He is the Son of God.

That's the main crux of the many sects of Christianity, to which sect do you belong?

Well the burden of proof is with the claimant.

Well, there's no proof of gods, or men who rise up from the dead, yet those are your beliefs.

If you say it depends on who, then you should at the very least have made some distinction - do you mean theist as opposed to theist, or what?

If so, I can't imagine an atheist making claims that the conduct of animals is divinely inspired. And if animals were all inspired by gods, why weren't all men? Why would we need revelations?

Yes, I believe you're correct, this does not however validate your conclusion that Christianty will become extinct(or any other religion).

Let's call it a prediction, rather than a conclusion.

How do they affect you personally?

There are many ways. People in political power will make decisions based on their faith, which prescribes those rules and restraints - those decisions will ultimately affect me.

The theist mindset of punishment and reward has been entrenched into our society for centuries, it has become the way of life for everyone, regardless of whether you agree with it or not.

A public school board spent over a million dollars of tax payers money on legal fees to keep three elementary grade books out of school libraries. The school board was comprised of Christians, the books dealt with issues of gay parenting.

The list is virtually endless.