Legally is atheism a religion?

[lightgigantic]

No..

Unless you think atheists worship the letter "A"..

I encountered this article about a group of atheists claiming discrimination (on what appears to be religious grounds)

""Legally atheism counts as a religion, though we say we're not one," Dr Perkins said."

(Dr. Perkins being the spokesperson for the AFA - Atheist Foundation of Australia)

 

[lightgigantic]

This isn't an attempt to establish theism as the default position, as in born theistic, is it?

When did atheism become illegal? Are you trying to invoke some universal law stating that non belief in a deity is a felony?

No

Just trying to determine the legal status of atheism - namely on what (legal) grounds do they assert themselves (although this will obviously differ from state to state ... what to speak of country to country)

 

[lightgigantic]

First, it would be helpful to agree on what is defined as a religion. I've always found the definition used by philosopher Daniel Dennett to be the most utilitarian, which goes something like "religions are social systems whose participants avow belief in a supernatural agent or agents whose approval is to be sought."

This, of course, would exclude Theravada Buddhism but perhaps include Mahayana since the former is more philosophy whereas the latter includes supernatural agents and cosmological salvation different than that of the former.

While this becomes problematic for those that teach religious sociology and anthropology, the utility of the definition makes a clear delineation between what is truly a religion and what has religious-like qualities (i.e. baseball fans, political junkies, and devotees of internet forums).

I guess the legal definition of religion may differ from region to region - but at least in some parts that I am familiar with, a religious society is eligible for certain tax breaks/legal rights, etc (much like other certain social clubs, if you like) so there are legal definitions of religion (which, while perhaps based on anthropological definitions of religion, tend to be less complex).

So there are criteria on what one must meet in order to be legally classified a "religion".

I am just trying to find out the legal status of atheism.
Once again, references appreciated

 

[quadraphonics]

Thats good. I've never actually heard of an atheist being sworn in for government service in the US.

The reason you don't hear about it is that it is so routine that it is not newsworthy.

 

[spidergoat]

I would think the legality only comes into play when talking of taxable income for churches. Atheists have no churches, and there is no official status for religious affiliation, so how would the law apply?

 

[lightgigantic]

I would think the legality only comes into play when talking of taxable income for churches. Atheists have no churches, and there is no official status for religious affiliation, so how would the law apply?

Still, to enjoy the tax breaks one has to be legally recognized as a religion (and besides, there is more to the legal status of a religion aside from the tax issues) - eg equal opportunity, discrimination, etc etc

I recall a news article about a year ago about a British high school boy posing as a FSM'er, which required that he dress up like a pirate - his complaint about his school's response to his mannerisms where not accepted because it wasn't he wasn't legally recognized as belonging to a religion.

Found the article
http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=43272&in_page_id=2

My mistake
American school kid
uk article

 

[S.A.M.]

The reason you don't hear about it is that it is so routine that it is not newsworthy.

Okay, give me one example of an atheist sworn in for government service in any one of the above states.

 

[Orleander]

Still, to enjoy the tax breaks one has to be legally recognized as a religion (and besides, there is more to the legal status of a religion aside from the tax issues) - eg equal opportunity, discrimination, etc etc

Don't you get tax breaks for being a non-profit organization like Boy Scouts?

 

[spidergoat]

Here is some good information I found:

The most fundamental thing to understand is that no group and no church is “owed” a tax exemption. These exemptions on various taxes are in no way protected by the Constitution — they are created by the legislatures, regulated by the legislatures, and can be taken away by the legislatures. At the same time, tax exemptions — including those for religious groups — are not prohibited by the Constitution.

...The only restriction on how the legislatures act when it comes to creating and giving out tax exemptions is that they are not permitted to do so based upon preferences for content or based upon a group’s failure to take certain oaths. In other words, once tax exemptions are created at all, the process for allowing certain groups to take advantage of them is restricted by constitutional rights.

In particular, they cannot give exemptions to a group merely because the group is religious, and they cannot take away exemptions for the same reason. If tax exemptions are created for magazines or books or whatever, the exemptions must be available to all parties, not just religious and not just secular applicants.​

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/overview.htm


The tax exemption isn't just for religions. Here are the legal requirements:

Exempt Purposes - Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3)

The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.​

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

So, an atheist organization could get a tax exemption if they can show that they do charitable or educational work, or any of the above reasons. Since defending civil rights can confer an exemption, I would think there are already atheist groups that enjoy some tax breaks.

 

[quadraphonics]

Okay, give me one example of an atheist sworn in for government service in any one of the above states.

Well, again from your link, the case that caused the Supreme Court to overturn all those state laws was exactly an atheist being sworn in as Notary Public of Maryland.

I myself have been "sworn in for government service," although not in any of the states in question, and am an atheist.

Many of the Founding Fathers were atheists, or at least not religious in any conventional sense of the term.

It is explicitly contrary to the Constitution of the United States to establish any religious test for office, and the ACLU will be more than happy to litigate against any such instance at no charge to the complainant.

 

[S.A.M.]

I would think the legality only comes into play when talking of taxable income for churches. Atheists have no churches, and there is no official status for religious affiliation, so how would the law apply?

They do, now.

http://www.acfnewsource.org/religion/atheist_church.html

There is also one at Harvard

http://www.harvardhumanist.org/

They have a minister and everything

 

[spidergoat]

I have since learned that the law can apply to any number of organizations that can be interpreted as serving the public, not just religions or churches.

 

[lightgigantic]

Here is some good information I found:

The most fundamental thing to understand is that no group and no church is “owed” a tax exemption. These exemptions on various taxes are in no way protected by the Constitution — they are created by the legislatures, regulated by the legislatures, and can be taken away by the legislatures. At the same time, tax exemptions — including those for religious groups — are not prohibited by the Constitution.

...The only restriction on how the legislatures act when it comes to creating and giving out tax exemptions is that they are not permitted to do so based upon preferences for content or based upon a group’s failure to take certain oaths. In other words, once tax exemptions are created at all, the process for allowing certain groups to take advantage of them is restricted by constitutional rights.

In particular, they cannot give exemptions to a group merely because the group is religious, and they cannot take away exemptions for the same reason. If tax exemptions are created for magazines or books or whatever, the exemptions must be available to all parties, not just religious and not just secular applicants.​

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchestaxexemptions/a/overview.htm


The tax exemption isn't just for religions. Here are the legal requirements:

Exempt Purposes - Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3)

The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.​

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

thanks for the links

there are issues of the legality of a religion aside from tax issues

there are issues of one's rights (like say one's rights in the work place)

So in the case of the pirate dressing FSM'er, his religious right wasn't legally recognized.
I was trying to focus however, on more assertive stances of atheism that don't merely rely on satire.

This is more what I am trying to take a look at.

If a person wants to have their right to say "there is no god" protected, do they have to rely on the legal mechanics that protect religion?

 

[S.A.M.]

Well, again from your link, the case that caused the Supreme Court to overturn all those state laws was exactly an atheist being sworn in as Notary Public of Maryland.

I myself have been "sworn in for government service," although not in any of the states in question, and am an atheist.

Many of the Founding Fathers were atheists, or at least not religious in any conventional sense of the term.

It is explicitly contrary to the Constitution of the United States to establish any religious test for office, and the ACLU will be more than happy to litigate against any such instance at no charge to the complainant.

How are atheists sworn in then? On what? Or do they just say, I solemnly swear that.... like in India? Can you give me one example of an atheist in government service in any of the states now? I am just curious.

 

[lightgigantic]

Don't you get tax breaks for being a non-profit organization like Boy Scouts?

yes, but the foundation of the boy scouts is not primarily a religious one (although I do recall a national spokesperson for the group explaining how, while there is no problem with an atheist joining them, if they feel that they want a group that more ideally supports their ideology, they would probably be better off looking elsewhere ... IOW the whole "oath to god" etc to do one's best isn't something that can be negotiated in the name of fluffy law suits) ...... once again, could be an issue that differs from region to region (as is the nature of fluffy lawsuits)

 

[spidergoat]

thanks for the links

there are issues of the legality of a religion aside from tax issues

there are issues of one's rights (like say one's rights in the work place)

So in the case of the pirate dressing FSM'er, his religious right wasn't legally recognized.
I was trying to focus however, on more assertive stances of atheism that don't merely rely on satire.

This is more what I am trying to take a look at.

If a person wants to have their right to say "there is no god" protected, do they have to rely on the legal mechanics that protect religion?

Religious freedom is already protected under the constitution, even atheism. The FSM guy is an interesting issue, since dressing in a certain way isn't necessarily a religious or non-religious point of view, it's a costume, a satire. The Supreme Court ruled that people who take peyote can be fired (from a substance abuse clinic), even though they have the religious right to take peyote, and even though mescaline (the active ingredient) is still illegal.

 

[spidergoat]

How are atheists sworn in then? On what? Or do they just say, I solemnly swear that.... like in India? Can you give me one example of an atheist in government service in any of the states now? I am just curious.

U.S. Rep. Pete Stark "Comes Out" as an Atheist

 

[quadraphonics]

How are atheists sworn in then? On what? Or do they just say, I solemnly swear that.... like in India?

Yep. What else would they do? Even when religious people are sworn in on a holy book, that's what they say. As you may have noticed if you watched the Obama inauguration.

Can you give me one example of an atheist in government service in any of the states now? I am just curious.

I don't keep track of the religious affiliations of government servants in my own state, let alone other ones. But I am confident that a cursory examination of government servants in any state in the US will yield a substantial number of atheists, and an even more substantial number of people who identify as "Christian" but display no religiosity whatsoever.

And then there are the Unitarians. Not sure where they fall in your catalog of theism...

 

[spidergoat]

I think Obama said, "so help me God", but that's optional.

 

[quadraphonics]

I think Obama said, "so help me God", but that's optional.

Right, I was referring to saying "I solemnly swear..." instead of, perhaps, "I swear to God..."