I heard the tape, and I find the whispered statement inconclusive. As a juror, I would have to dismiss it.
And note I'm NOT defending the FL law.The same Florida law also permits Trayvon Martin to use deadly force against Zimmerman for stalking and attacking him - with a deadly weapon, no less!
Or rather, it would, if Martin had survived instead of Zimmerman. This law basically legalizes gunfights - and is already being systematically abused by criminal gangs to wage large gun battles without fear of legal prosecution. It's completely inane.
Did you read the part where he calls Trayvon Martin a "fucking coon" - to a 911 dispatcher, no less - minutes before accosting and murdering him?
Carrying a gun and ignoring warnings from a 911 dispatcher not to engage are not "appropriate" actions for a neighboorhood watch participant. They are explicit violations of the standard neighborhood watch guidelines. They are, moverover, exactly the sorts of things that dangerous wanna-be vigilantes tend to do, and which the rest of us do not tolerate exactly because they lead to outcomes like this one.
When has that ever been exclusive of somebody being racist? Especially considering the circumstances and the consequent incentives for said friends and family to exculpate him.
But, to be clear: nobody is saying the guy is a card-carrying Klan member. Just your usual oblivious racist who treats black, male youths with a level of unjustified suspicion and double-standards that result in drastically different treatment and assumptions.
Although, the real offense here is the Florida institutions themselves are similarly racist and so back him up instead of arresting and charging him.
Possible, but bear in mind that Zimmerman outweighed Martin by over 100 pounds. I have roughly zero sympathy for an armed dude who stalks and accosts a kid half his size at night.
And that we have no actual evidence of this besides Zimmerman's own word, after the fact, when the cops have showed up in response to him killing an unarmed black kid half his size.
Or so he says - yet he didn't bother seeking medical attention for this supposed broken bone.
By the way, have you looked up how many of those calls were to report black youths doing nothing in particular? This wasn't the first time he targetted black kids for no defensible reason. It's just the first time he killed one.
According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman volunteered as chief watchman at the Retreat of Twin Lakes Townhomes after its homeowners association decided to jump-start the program following a spate of burglaries. ... neighbours told the newspaper Zimmerman took nightly patrols while walking his dog and was passionate about his duty.
Records acquired by the Herald show his self-appointment led to a series of calls to police. From January 1, 2011 to February 26, 2012, Zimmerman reportedly phoned authorities 46 times - to 'report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents'.
His calls accounted for some of the 402 made to police from the 260-unit complex, according to the Herald.
Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners' association, credited Zimmerman with solving crime in the area.
'He once caught a thief and an arrest was made,' she said.
And note I'm NOT defending the FL law.
Nah, I listened to it though. And the word he says is plural, not singular and I'm confident he doesn't say "fucking coons", what it sounds like to me is "fucking cones" (he's driving and appears to be muttering about these cones being in the way under his breath).
Yeah, I've said a number of times he was over-zealous
And I was just pointing out that other aspects of his life, like having a best friend who is black and mentoring two young black kids simply argues against him being a racist as his motivation for this.
I have no personal knowledge if he is or isn't a racist.
Except that isn't something we know for sure.
It isn't an issue of having sympathy for Zimmerman.
I'm not saying he deserves any and I'm pretty sure his hopes of becoming a police officer are gone,
all I've been saying is that as long as the eye-witness backs his version of what happened, that the existing FL law will likely come down on Zimmerman's side.
As to Martin being "a kid", I'm not so sure that's an accurate description of 6'3" Martin either as he tweeted as NO_LIMIT_NIGGA, was suspended 3 times from HS until he was finally kicked out of school in October for graffiti after he was allegedly caught with a 'burglary tool' and a bag full of women's jewelry.
Well clearly he wasn't half his size, and we do have evidence besides Zimmerman's own word:
But the fact is, Florida Law doesn't require you to have suffered serious bodily harm, only be in the fear of it.
And the injuries and the fact that the witness says Martin was banging his head against the pavement would appear to legally support Zimmerman's claim that he feared for his life.
No, have you?
Do you have details to back up this claim?
If not, how about you just put this to rest by coming out and asserting that what Zimmerman did was unequivocably wrong, and that he should go to prison for such, and that it was wrong for the police not to investigate, nor the DA to file charges, and that any legal basis for those inactions is unacceptable?
But you are defending the actions of Zimmerman and the cops on the basis of that law. Aren't you?
If not, how about you just put this to rest by coming out and asserting that what Zimmerman did was unequivocably wrong, and that he should go to prison for such, and that it was wrong for the police not to investigate, nor the DA to file charges, and that any legal basis for those inactions is unacceptable?
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,
There's a bunch of other witnesses that disagree with your one anonymous witness (leaked by the police weeks after coming under fire). Funny how you make a point of ignoring them. Too bad we don't have some legal process for aggregating differing statements, weighing them in a fair way, and coming to a conclusion about the facts. Like a "jury trial" or something like that.
Which would justify the injuries Martin is alleged to have inflicted on Zimmerman, note. I'd certainly be in fear of serious bodily harm if an armed stranger twice my size stalked me at night and then accosted me.
The only thing this law really says is that whoever survives gets away with it. That is the legal basis you are defending these people's actions on.
You can't simultaneously argue that Zimmerman was justifiable afraid for his life and so entitled to harm Martin, and not also the other way around.
And the fact that the other witnesses disagree - and that various physical facts call crucial aspects of your account into question - is going to be pointedly ignored by you. So that you can both take sides and pretend to be reasonable and impartial. It isn't going to fool anyone.
Yep. Try Google. It's fast and free.
I don't read trash like the Daily Mail any more than I read detritus like FOX News.
Ah, shooting the messenger I see.
Good plan except the Daily mail was just quoting the Miami Herald.
Do you not read the Miami Herald either?
Does it work for you when you stick your fingers in your ears and go YA-YA-YA-YA?
If you slap cuffs on Zimmerman despite the law to placate the public, then the rule of law goes out the window.
I fear that more than I do lone, gun-toting, self-appointed, neighborhood watchmen...
in fact, without the law, I fear lone, gun-toting, self-appointed, neighborhood watchmen all the more, since the public is incredibly fickle. They are as likely to lynch an innocent man as to legitimately demand justice. I think the public is on the right side in this case, but I do not trust to be right next time.
And you wonder why the mods don't take you seriously.
Quadraphonics said:I don't read trash like the Daily Mail any more than I read detritus like FOX News.
According to the Miami Herald, Zimmerman volunteered as chief watchman at the Retreat of Twin Lakes Townhomes after its homeowners association decided to jump-start the program following a spate of burglaries. ... neighbours told the newspaper Zimmerman took nightly patrols while walking his dog and was passionate about his duty.
Records acquired by the Herald show his self-appointment led to a series of calls to police. From January 1, 2011 to February 26, 2012, Zimmerman reportedly phoned authorities 46 times - to 'report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents'.
His calls accounted for some of the 402 made to police from the 260-unit complex, according to the Herald.
Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners' association, credited Zimmerman with solving crime in the area.
'He once caught a thief and an arrest was made,' she said.
No, I'm comparing Zimmerman's actions in regards to the existing Florida Law.
He should go to jail if he broke the existing Florida law.
It doesn't appear that he has done so.
I think the law should be changed.
I do think the Police investigated this incident
But so far it would appear that under Florida Law, Zimmerman's actions fall under 776.012.
According to what I read the person is not anonymous to the police or the news media, but they have kept their name out of the press.
No it wouldn't unless Zimmerman started the fight or pulled his gun prior to the fight.
That's why I've been saying about the witness testimony, as long as it continues to corroborate Zimmerman's story the law is likely to side with him.
No it's not.
There IS a witness.
Bells couldn't come up with any witness testimony that disagreed with that key witness I've been quoting. (see our exchanges)
What do you have?
Nope.
You make the claim, your responsibility for proving it.
Failure to do so woud indicate the proof probably doesn't exist.
Ah, shooting the messenger I see.
Does it work for you when you stick your fingers in your ears and go YA-YA-YA-YA?
If you pass a law that legalizes hunting black boys, then the law is already in the toilet.
Might I ask: what color is your skin?
Nobody is arguing for a trial-by-public here. What people are demanding is a normal, accountable set of legal processing for properly handling homicides - which is exactly what exists most places, and existed in Florida before a bunch of racist rednecks went and demanded a law that allows them to gun down black people for no pretext, and not even face arrest for it.
The fact of the matter is that a "law" like this has already created the atmosphere of lawlessness that you claim to want to avoid here.
Quad said he ignored part of my post because of it's source.
But though the source was from the Daily Mail, what I posted was simply them quoting the Miami Herald.
Which by ignoring this information is indeed exactly like sticking your fingers in your ears and making noise so you can't hear.
And you can't pass such a law without it being ruled unconstitutional, both from the point of view of the Florida Constitution or the US Constitution.
While I think the law needs changing, it is not unconstitutional as written.
No, this law didn't allow Zimmerman to gun down Martin for no pretext.
There used to be a strong militia movement in the USA: people arming themselves on the premise that one day something horrible would happen that would overwhelm the police and the military and we'd need citizen soldiers: a complete breakdown of law and order, invasion by Muslim terrorists, that sort of thing. Timothy McVeigh was a member of a militia. When he blew up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, virtually every militia in the country disbanded within a week. Even with their semiautomatic weapons (many clandestinely and illegally converted to fully automatic) they didn't want to bear the hatred that was now directed at them. This was the legacy of all those dead babies in the Murrah day-care center.I think it was pretty easy to see this coming when Republicans started making these laws in states all across the country a few years ago.
Oh thank you! I have said many times that Grant was a fool for taking them back. We've had five Presidents from the South during my lifetime and three of them have been unmitigated disasters: LBJ (Vietnam), Carter (created the Taliban) and Backward Baby Bush (attacked Iraq and Afghanistan when the Saudis were responsible for 9/11). Papa Bush was a joke and Clinton, despite being the first and only pot-smokin' draft-dodgin' color-blind rockin'n'rollin' sexual-revolutionary Rhodes-Scholar hippie in the White House, was the same guy who attacked the one-percenters in Waco and Ruby Ridge, establishing himself as no friend of freedom. BTW, the only reason Texas petitioned to join the USA in the first place, after establishing itself as an independent country, was that nobody there knew how to run a country. That's still true. It's now got the distinction of being the only state in the union that has seceded from two countries. If Rick Perry really wants to secede again, I say: LET 'EM GO!Sometimes I wonder why we didn't just let the South quit us when they wanted to.
You don't understand America. In the South, this is standard practice when the victim is Afro-American and the killer is Euro-American. They used to lynch black people right up into the 1940s, and even in the 1960s there was considerable deadly violence against black people and the white people who drove down from the North to help them. Times are admittedly different now and life isn't nearly as hard for black people in the South as it once was, but it's still no bed of roses, as this incident illustrates. There is no way that a white person is going to be prosecuted, convicted and punished for killing a black person under circumstances that have even the faintest ambiguity. The fact that the killer is not even "white" by the standards of Florida (one parent is Latino) just shows you how the Southern white people still feel about black people: They'd rather support a Latino than an Afro-American.I take it your data does not go far enough to consider that a man shot an unarmed teenager, after stalking and attacking him and then claimed self defense and this man continues to roam the street without charge? Do you also fail to recognise that the police department completely and utterly mishandled the case, which resulted in the killer remaining free and without charge?
In most of America, the answer to this question is a resounding NO. For example, in California, if someone breaks into your house and starts to steal your stuff, you may be able to get away with shooting him if he's facing you and you have a reasonable fear that he is going to attack you physically, or can at least convince a jury of that. But if you pull out your .45 and he turns around in fear and runs away, and you shoot him in the back on his way across your back yard, it is you who will be prosecuted.Thus, what seems an obvious question. Is it self-defense if you deliberately pursue a confrontation?
Again, you don't understand America. Even here in Maryland, which is technically below the Mason-Dixon Line even though it fought with the Union in the Civil War, it's a joke among our huge Afro-American population that there is a state law called DWB: "driving while black."Now, please tell me how an unarmed minor, walking home in the evening with a can of iced tea and a packet of skittles, constitutes someone committing a felony?
You're a pretty strange American if you don't understand that racism IS one of the biggest and most complex problems in the world. Look at the way the mestizos in Mexico are treated by the wealthier people who call themselves "Spanish." Look at the Israelis punishing the Palestinians for the Holocaust, just because it would be suicidal to attack Germany. Look at the Turks and Iraqis killing the Kurds. China's treatment of the Tibetans. The acrimony between the Buddhists and Hindus in Sri Lanka. The treatment of the Gypsies in Europe, perhaps the only thing that all Europeans agree on!why do any of us even care in the slightest over an "tragedy" that the media so called it, when there are bigger much more complex problems that are affecting the world. . . .
It's short for "Neighborhood Watch." This is a program in most of our cities in which citizens are deputized to take shifts looking out for suspicious activity in their neighborhood. Zimmerman pretended to be the captain of a Neighborhood Watch patrol, but in fact he had no official standing, and in addition he did not follow the rules of the program. They are not allowed to carry weapons, and if they see someone or something suspicious, their first act is supposed to be to call the police. Neighborhood Watch people do not confront miscreants and they certainly do not shoot them. Obviously if they see someone physically attacking one of their neighbors, abducting a child, etc., they might take action. But this is rare and there would be a very intense investigation afterward.We all have - that kind of language was the frame of most of the early news reports. [Watch captain.] Where did it come from?
An attempt has been made to soft-pedal the racism because Zimmerman is of "mixed race" himself and he spouts the old cliche, "Some of my best friends are black." Nonetheless it's been well established that even black people are more afraid of confronting a black man on a dark street than they would of a white man.. . . . in the absence of racism - appears to have been no reason at all, at least none that we have heard of yet.
I guarantee that if a black man acted under the provisions of the "stand your ground" law anywhere in the South, he would be prosecuted, if not shot on the spot. Black people are second-class citizens in the land of the Religious Redneck Retards.The same Florida law also permits Trayvon Martin to use deadly force against Zimmerman for stalking and attacking him - with a deadly weapon, no less!
Technically it would apply to the Neighborhood Watch organization.This term "quasi law enforcement role" means "vigilante," yes?
Then you're missing the salient point - which is that said law is itself as odious as Zimmerman's actions. The fact that an unjust, indefensible law legalizes unjust, indefensible actions is just that.
So you're fine with a murderer going free, so long as Florida law says it's okay?
And yet they didn't do even cursory, standard things that occur routinely in every homicide investigation. The investigation was a hash. That's why the chief of police has already been fired over this boondoggle.
Are you really going to stand here and argue that the police acted appropriately when the City Council in question has already sacked the police chief over exactly his mishandling of this exact case?
SANFORD, Fla. -- At a hastily called press conference Thursday afternoon, Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. announced that beleaguered police Chief Bill Lee Jr. is stepping down temporarily amid growing anger over his handling of the investigation into the killing of Trayvon Martin. Bonaparte told reporters that he hoped the move would "restore calm to the city of Sanford" and help speed the case through the legal process. He said that the city has not yet appointed an interim chief.
"I am aware that my role as the head of the department has become a distraction," said Lee at the press conference. "I have come to the decision to temporarily remove myself."
Are you furthermore unaware that this police department has a long and ugly history of violent racial scandals, including ones implicating officers intimately involved in this case?
Because this stuff is all on Wikipedia already, and it makes you look laughably uninformed to go out on these limbs in oblivion to it.
He's anonymous to us, so we have no way of evaluating his credibility. You're demanding that we all take the word of one unknown person, whose conveniently exculpatory statements only came to light once the police needed such to take the heat off of them.
Again, I welcome a trial where this witness can show up and testify. And so can all the other witnesses who disagree with him. Until then, I will regard this stuff with the skepticism it so clearly merits. Any law that exculpates a murderer without even that level of due process is a travesty of justice.
Your credulous embrace of any statement that exonerates Zimmerman and the cops, and obliviousness to countervailing information is obvious and totally undermines your pretense of objectivity and rationality.
You're stumping for the racists and the authorities, even if you're invoking legalistic pretexts to disguise that fact (ineffectively). The contrast with Pandaemoni, in that regard, is really striking, so given his presence I don't know why you imagine this gambit will succeed. Everyone's been onto your tricks for a long time now.
Says who? The Florida law I've seen only requires that someone "reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself." I think that is a reasonable thing to believe, when one is stalked and accosted by someone twice one's size, at night. There is no precedent that such requires seeing a gun or being physically attacked or injured. Whence did you produce this legal standard that so conveniently aligns exactly with your preferred narrative, exactly?
And continuing to ignore the contrary witness testimony. Pretending it doesn't exist, even, as if advertizing your blatant ignorance of the facts will help your credibility.
There are multiple witnesses, including those who gave accounts that contradict that of Zimmerman and this new witness. Some of them go so far as to assert that police bias in favor of Zimmerman was obvious during their interactions with them at the scene.
The fact that you don't even know about the other witnesses immediately disqualifies you as grossly uninformed and so unworthy of voicing an opinion on this matter.
Like your claim that there were traffic cones on the street? Or have you dropped that silly pretense?
Anyway, I accept no duty to inform you about basic, widely-reported aspects of the issue under discussion. Getting you up to speed on the contents of the relevant Wikipedia page is not my job. Knowing those things is a prerequisite to participate in a serious discussion, so you can either do your homework or just go ahead and shut up.
Or, better yet, keep pursuing this idiot tactic of refusing to do your basic homework, and meanwhile denying well-publicized facts of the matter. It just makes you look like an argumentative jackass, and makes it easy for anyone to undermine you as is convenient for them.
What I did, was decline to follow a link to your source, because I do not trust that source.
You posted a link to the Daily Mail, and I declined to read it. So what? Quit being such a cry-baby.
You posted no information that I haven't already seen, nor did any of the interaction in question bear on the issue of actual information. Me declining to read to hit-job in a shitrag newspaper has no bearing on my level of information.
adoucette said:The constitutionality of these laws have not been definitively settled.
Indeed, my understanding is that the likely outcome at this point is exactly that the DOJ investigation will lead to their being overruled as unconstitutional.
Got a SOURCE for your "understanding"?
Or are we just supposed to take your word for it?
a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent
imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to
prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.
1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, ....As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
Fowler v. State said:When the defense presents a prima facie case of self-defense, the State has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense.
I guarantee that if a black man acted under the provisions of the "stand your ground" law anywhere in the South, he would be prosecuted, if not shot on the spot. Black people are second-class citizens in the land of the Religious Redneck Retards.
Adoucette said:
It sounds to me like he says "Fucking CONES" as in highway marking cones.
The vowel sound in the second word is a long "O" sound, not a long "U" sound.
But then others claim they hear "Punks".