Justice and Security: Neighborhood Watch Captain Attacks, Kills Unarmed Teenager

[Nasor]

In short, put yourself in Martin's shoes. You are a teenage boy, walking home on darkened streets and you see a man get out of his car and start chasing you. What would you do? The fact that Zimmerman chased him (while carrying a gun mind you) would make Zimmerman the aggressor in the first instance. If you go out of your way to aggressively chase and engage someone else who had been walking away from you in the first instance (remember, he got out of his car against police orders and chased Martin for no reason than that he was a black kid walking down his street), it cannot follow the stand your ground rules. If we follow those rules, it is Martin who stood his ground.

See above. That description of events is not consistent with what Zimmerman claims happened. Since there isn't really any evidence one way or the other, how do you prove anything?

 

[adoucette]

The bigger question is why was he following Martin in the first place? The boy was merely walking home while talking to his girlfriend on the phone. Was he racially profiled by the self appointed neighbourhood watch 'captain', Zimmerman? With his uttering the racist comment on the phone to the 911 operator as he took chase, that is quite likely.

Martin's girlfriend who heard the start of the altercation and had heard Martin say to her on the phone that a person was following him and she advised him to run and he said he was walking really fast and running.. away from Zimmerman.. corresponds with the 911 call where Zimmerman is heard to get out of breath as he chased Martin.. She then apparently heard the altercation where Martin was heard asking 'why are you chasing me' and then she heard scuffling and the phone went dead.. Which also corresponds to other witnesses who saw them fighting, one witness saw them fighting on the ground and then separate immediately before Martin was shot in the chest and Zimmerman was immediately found standing over the boy. Just prior to the gunshots, Martin is heard on the many 911 calls made at this time, screaming for help. This is based solely on what I have read and what has been linked in this thread..

In short, put yourself in Martin's shoes. You are a teenage boy, walking home on darkened streets and you see a man get out of his car and start chasing you. What would you do? The fact that Zimmerman chased him (while carrying a gun mind you) would make Zimmerman the aggressor in the first instance. If you go out of your way to aggressively chase and engage someone else who had been walking away from you in the first instance (remember, he got out of his car against police orders and chased Martin for no reason than that he was a black kid walking down his street), it cannot follow the stand your ground rules. If we follow those rules, it is Martin who stood his ground.

Also, the manner in which the police handled this case raises questions..

Attempting to alter people's statements to police by correcting witnesses when they recounted what they had seen, so that it fit in to Zimmerman's statements, which he gave by being led through his questions by a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective. The lack of gathering evidence at the scene (ie primarily his clothes and I believe Zimmerman is still allowed to carry a weapon on his person in public?.. Not to mention their failure to drug and alcohol test Zimmerman that night), along with failing to even bother trying to identify Martin, who sat in the morgue for 3 nights while the parents were filing reports. And then we look at the fact the police attempted to hide the 911 tape where Zimmerman is heard making racist comments, and those tapes were withheld not just from Martin's family lawyers, but also from the public when they released the tapes to detail what had happened. And the lies the police told Martin's family that Zimmerman was as clean as they come when he had been arrested for assault in the past. And then of course the tapes where it is Martin heard screaming for help and not Zimmerman, as they tried to portray it was Zimmerman based solely on what he told them.. Either the police in that part of Florida are completely incompetent or they are covering up for Zimmerman..

This case is ugly and bizarre and I suspect whatever happens, we will never truly know why the police did what they did..

Couple of points.

I don't agree that there is any racist comment on the 911 tape (nor have I seen any evidence that the police tried to hide it).

It sounds to me like he says "Fucking CONES" as in highway marking cones.

The vowel sound in the second word is a long "O" sound, not a long "U" sound.

But then others claim they hear "Punks".

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/original-zimmerman-controversial-comment-explicit/vGbyc/

Listen yourself, but it's not as clear an issue as you make it.

The police didn't issue him any orders, a dispatcher saying we don't need you to do that is not the same as a policeman saying don't do that. (I think the dispatcher should have been more assertive)

Then people related to Martin claim they hear him on the tape, but another impartial witness says that Martin was beating the crap out of Zimmerman and it was Zimmerman calling for help.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police. Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose, according to the account he gave police.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

Zimmerman began yelling for help.

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

As far as other info being hidden, I think you are jumping to conclusions.
Some info has dribbled out and some initial info turns out to not be complete, but that's just the nature of this kind of story, and not necessarily an indication of any cover-up.

 

[adoucette]

We all have - that kind of language was the frame of most of the early news reports.

Where did it come from?

No, not just the early news repots, it's been repeated over and over in the local Florida news, so my guess is they have looked into it and there is a Neighborhood Watch program and apparently they do have "Captains", and I presume since they keep reporting it, that he was one.

http://www.usaonwatch.org/search/default.aspx?F_Keywords=captain

Still, it's not like you take a test or get promoted to that "rank" based on experience.

 

[Bells]

Couple of points.

I don't agree that there is any racist comment on the 911 tape (nor have I seen any evidence that the police tried to hide it).

It sounds to me like he says "Fucking CONES" as in highway marking cones.

The vowel sound in the second word is a long "O" sound, not a long "U" sound.

But then others claim they hear "Punks".

A highway marking cone on a small suburban street and had there been 'cones' there, and he sounds like he's saying 'cones', it would have been cleared up straight away. I personally heard the word 'coon', not cone.

However what makes this tape interesting is that the police originally withheld it from the lawyers representing Martin's family. Why would they do that?

The police didn't issue him any orders, a dispatcher saying we don't need you to do that is not the same as a policeman saying don't do that. (I think the dispatcher should have been more assertive)

He called 911 and reported someone suspicious walking down the street (apparently being black and walking down the street is automatically suspicious for Zimmerman?) and he tells the operator he is going to follow him, whereupon he is told not to do that. That to me speaks volumes. You then hear him get out of breath as he starts to chase Martin.. Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with Martin at the time, also heard Martin's voice change and she could hear him start moving a lot faster after he reported that someone was following him and she reportedly told him to run.. This was a kid, being chased down a dark street by a stranger who gets out of his car and gave chase. He would probably have been terrified. Wouldn't you have been in his shoes?

Then people related to Martin claim they hear him on the tape, but another impartial witness says that Martin was beating the crap out of Zimmerman and it was Zimmerman calling for help.

And yet, the voice on the tape is not Zimmerman's according to all who know Martin.. Go figure.. And another teenager who witnessed it while walking his dog also advised that he saw the scuffle and then the two separated and a few moments later, Martin was shot.. In other words, they were apart from each other. When Martin was shot, Zimmerman was found standing over Martin's body. And when the witnesses reported what they saw to the police, the police attempted to correct their eyewitness statements so that it matched Zimmerman's.. That to me is more telling, wouldn't you say? Not to mention the fact that Zimmerman weighs about 100 pounds more than Martin, who if the photos are any judge, looked quite small in stature, while Zimmerman looked like a bit of a heifer.

So out of all these other witnesses, only one saw it as Zimmerman saw it? Really? All the others were blind and deaf and were making it up to the police at the time and before this became an international story?

Also why weren't his clothes gathered as evidence and why wasn't he drug and alcohol tested? Why was it a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective who investigated this case? This is crucial evidence. Did he have to surrender his firearm immediately after? Why was he allowed to maintain and keep his permit to carry a concealed weapon, even after all of this started coming out?

There are so many questions that need to be asked and now with so much evidence lost due to the police lack of action and their general incompetence, how fair do you think this trial (if there will be a trial) will be on behalf of the victim?

As for my supposedly jumping to conclusions:

The Sanford Police Department has come under withering criticism for failing to reach out to Martin's girlfriend, who was talking to the teen on his cell phone and heard the altercation with Zimmerman take place.

Among other issues, police have been criticized for:

Withholding a batch of telling 911 calls, including the one revealing Zimmerman's possible racist remark.

Sending a narcotics detective to the scene, instead of a homicide detective, as is typical for homicides.

And failing to administer a drug and alcohol test to Zimmerman that night, which homicide investigator Rod Wheeler called a "fatal flaw in the investigation."

"The fact that Mr. Zimmerman was not given a toxicology test or breathalyzer examination is huge. Very huge," Wheeler said. He also wondered why Zimmerman's vehicle was not investigated or impounded.

The clothes he was wearing weren't even take into evidence..

It defies belief to be honest..

 

[Nasor]

Couple of points.

I don't agree that there is any racist comment on the 911 tape (nor have I seen any evidence that the police tried to hide it).

It sounds to me like he says "Fucking CONES" as in highway marking cones.

The vowel sound in the second word is a long "O" sound, not a long "U" sound.

But then others claim they hear "Punks".

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/original-zimmerman-controversial-comment-explicit/vGbyc/

Listen yourself, but it's not as clear an issue as you make it.

It sounds more like "punks" to me, although it's certainly not clear.

 

[Asguard]

Bells this case makes me wonder about private criminal procutions. I know it's possible here but the AG can stop it if they wish to peruse the case but sounds like the family would do a better job than the state in this case

 

[iceaura]

No, not just the early news repots, it's been repeated over and over in the local Florida news, so my guess is they have looked into it and there is a Neighborhood Watch program and apparently they do have "Captains", and I presume since they keep reporting it, that he was one.

That assumption is the reason I marked the issue as worth noticing: as far as I can discover there was and is no registered Neighborhood Watch program in that community, and Zimmerman was not part of any such group (notice that no one from Zimmerman's "Neighborhood Watch" group has been interviewed about any of this, about the training, the policies, etc - that's because there are no such people, locally, to interview).

So where did the language come from?

 

[Pandaemoni]

Bells this case makes me wonder about private criminal procutions. I know it's possible here but the AG can stop it if they wish to peruse the case but sounds like the family would do a better job than the state in this case

If by "private criminal prosecution" (if that's what you meant assume) you mean a civil action for wrongful death, Florida law bars that too, just as it does with criminal action.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html

A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force

They can file it and see how things go, but it does not say that "it is a defense" to liability, it says the perpetrator is immune from the legal action itself, meaning a court should dismiss it without a trial. The courts might allow them to try the notion that the protection does not apply (likely in separate hearings from the wrongful death action itself), but the parents would be better off getting a conviction first, or at least letting federal and state investigators gather more information. Plus, it kinda looks like the crazy law does apply.

 

[Asguard]

No that's not what I meant. It's possible in Australia for someone to privately bring CRIMINAL procidings but the state attorney generals have the right to block it if the crown intends to procide with there own prosecution. I don't know of any cases where it's happened but it's still possible, it's just the crown has more resources do its better to leave it to the crown.

 

[Pandaemoni]

No that's not what I meant. It's possible in Australia for someone to privately bring CRIMINAL procidings but the state attorney generals have the right to block it if the crown intends to procide with there own prosecution. I don't know of any cases where it's happened but it's still possible, it's just the crown has more resources do its better to leave it to the crown.

I did not know that. There is nothing like that in the U.S., and if their were the prohibition on criminal proceedings in the same statute would almost certainly apply to those as well.

 

[Asguard]

Yes actually there is

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution

 

[Nasor]

Yes actually there is

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prosecution

Interesting, but apparently only in one state (Virginia). But in any case, I don't see how you could possibly hope to convict him. There simply isn't any proof that it wasn't self-defense. The only actual witness says that he saw Martin pin Zimmerman to the ground and punch him, so...

 

[Bells]

Interesting, but apparently only in one state (Virginia). But in any case, I don't see how you could possibly hope to convict him. There simply isn't any proof that it wasn't self-defense. The only actual witness says that he saw Martin pin Zimmerman to the ground and punch him, so...

Can you pin someone who weighs about 100 pounds more than you to the ground and keep him down and keep punching him?

That aside..

On Tuesday’s AC360, CNN’s Anderson Cooper spoke with two witnesses, Mary Cutcher and her roommate Selma Mora Lamilla, who were at the scene of the gated community, The Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford, Florida, the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death by George Zimmerman.

“So you heard some sort of whining, some sort of commotion outside?” Cooper asked.

“We were in the kitchen, with the window open and the blinds pulled. So we had complete view from outside,” Cutcher explained.

Cooper asked her what was the first thing she saw.

“By that time, you hear like a shot — like some other noise,” Lamilla described.

“You heard the gunshot?” Cooper interjected.

“Yeah, I run away from my backyard and when I just get into the point of my — like my screen, it stopped me, I look at the person on his knees on top of a body,” Lamilla elaborated.

“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.

“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.

“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.

“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.

“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.

“One on each side, on his knees, with his hands on his back. I immediately thought, okay, obviously if it’s the shooter, he would have ran,” Cutcher detailed. “I thought he’s holding the wound, helping the guy taking a pulse, making sure he’s okay. When she called to him three times, everything okay, what’s going on? Each time he looked back, didn’t say anything and then the third time he finally said, ‘just call the police.’”

“But at that time it was so dark,” Lamilla added. “I just saw this person. When she started calling the police, I saw Zimmerman walking with — touching like his hair, like kind of like confused back and forth to the body.”

Lamilla and Cutcher described Zimmerman pacing around the body, following the shooting, and disputed that there was any indication of a fight.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/

And also..

Another witness, Mary Cutcher, believes "there was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling" just prior to the shooting, though she neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation.[66] The police say she gave an official account to them that agreed with Zimmerman's story.[67][68] Cutcher and her roommate told CNN journalist Anderson Cooper that their own account of the incident to the police did not agree with Zimmerman's, and that they had demanded that the police retract that incorrect statement. They also said, about the police's attitude at the scene, that "they were siding with him [Zimmerman] from the start" and that they heard the pair in their backyard and a "very young voice" whining, with no sounds of a fight. They heard a gunshot; the crying stopped immediately, and they saw Zimmerman on his knees pinning Martin down on the ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

And it seems that department has had similar issues in the past.. of failing to arrest criminals that is:

News reports noted that the police department of the city of Sanford has faced previous allegations of racial prejudice.[90] In 2011, chief of police Brian Tooley was forced from office after declining to prosecute a police lieutenant's son for beating up a homeless black man, in an incident caught on video. After the footage went viral on YouTube, the perpetrator, Justin Collison, was arrested.[90][91][92] The officer in charge of that case was also in charge of the Trayvon Martin shooting scene.[48] In 2005, two parking lot security guards, one the son of a Sanford police department veteran and the other a volunteer for the department, shot a black teen, Travares McGill, in the back, killing him. The guards asserted self-defense, and the case was dismissed in court.

Pray tell, how does one shoot someone in the back and claim self defense?

That aside, this appears to be a recurring theme within that department, wouldn't you say?

 

[joepistole]

Because of state law, the only justice available to the family may be Federal civil rights laws - the same laws used to bust the KKK in the South.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers_murders#Trial

 

[Bells]

Because of state law, the only justice available to the family may be Federal civil rights laws - the same laws used to bust the KKK in the South.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_civil_rights_workers_murders#Trial

Possibly.

I think one of the most important things that should be investigated after all of this is the police department and their handling of this case at the scene and afterwards.. And the law in Florida needs to be looked at as it is clearly lacking in many respects.. As is the police operating procedure when confronted with such cases..

 

[adoucette]

A highway marking cone on a small suburban street and had there been 'cones' there, and he sounds like he's saying 'cones', it would have been cleared up straight away. I personally heard the word 'coon', not cone.

Q-tips might be in order.
What ever is being said on that tape, it's clearly not COON.
There is no long O sound.

As far as being "cleared up", there appears to be nothing to clear up, as only the blogosphere seems to be repeating that version of what's on the tape.

However what makes this tape interesting is that the police originally withheld it from the lawyers representing Martin's family. Why would they do that?

Don't know that they did.
There are likely procedures to go through to get it released.
What evidence do you have that it was withheld from the lawyers longer than normal? Why do you think elapsed time for release was important anyway?

He called 911 and reported someone suspicious walking down the street (apparently being black and walking down the street is automatically suspicious for Zimmerman?) and he tells the operator he is going to follow him, whereupon he is told not to do that. That to me speaks volumes.

Again you change the words used to suit your slanted narrative.

The dispatcher said "we don't NEED you to do that", which is not the same as "Don't do that".

You then hear him get out of breath as he starts to chase Martin.. Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with Martin at the time, also heard Martin's voice change and she could hear him start moving a lot faster after he reported that someone was following him and she reportedly told him to run.. This was a kid, being chased down a dark street by a stranger who gets out of his car and gave chase. He would probably have been terrified. Wouldn't you have been in his shoes?

Quite possibly.
So?
Does that change what happened during the fight between the two men?

And yet, the voice on the tape is not Zimmerman's according to all who know Martin.. Go figure..

Again that's not exactly true either. A number of people have also identified it as Zimmerman's voice, and the police are saying it is Zimmerman, and a witness to the scene, who saw and heard who was crying out, said it was Zimmerman. Indeed, it's much more logical that the guy with the broken nose, fat lip and gash in the back of the head would be doing so vs the person giving him that beating.

And another teenager who witnessed it while walking his dog also advised that he saw the scuffle and then the two separated and a few moments later, Martin was shot.. In other words, they were apart from each other. When Martin was shot, Zimmerman was found standing over Martin's body.

No, that is not true either Bells.

McLendon’s sister: My brother said someone got shot behind our house. I heard something and then my brother ran into the house.

Dispatcher: Is your brother there?

Sister: He’s next to me.

Dispatcher: Can you give him the phone?

Austin McLendon: I saw a man laying (sic) on the ground that needed help, that was screaming and then I was going to go over there to try to help him, but my dog got off the leash, so I went and got my dog, and then I heard a loud sound and then the screaming stopped.

Dispatcher: Did you see the person get shot?
Did you know the person that was shot, or did you see the person that had the gun?

Austin McLendon: No, I just heard a loud sound and then the screaming stopped.

As to the other witness you just quoted, the salient point is that "Mary Cutcher ... neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation", what she saw was after the shooting and is consistent with Zimmerman checking on Martin's condition:

“I thought he’s holding the wound, helping the guy taking a pulse, making sure he’s okay. When she called to him three times, everything okay, what’s going on? Each time he looked back, didn’t say anything and then the third time he finally said, ‘just call the police.’”

So again, the one eyewitness we have to the fight said it was Martin on top and giving Zimmerman a beating, not at all like your rendition of events.

And when the witnesses reported what they saw to the police, the police attempted to correct their eyewitness statements so that it matched Zimmerman's.. That to me is more telling, wouldn't you say?

From what I understand that's sort of standard practice to find out how sure they are of what they saw. I mean I see that all the time on what appear to be realistic police shows, the typical: "are your sure it wasn't xxxxx, and not yyyyy that you saw?", but that's TV and I'm not a policeman, still it seems like a reasonable course of action for finding out what actually happened when dealing with eye witnesses. Challenge them and see how certain they are.

Not to mention the fact that Zimmerman weighs about 100 pounds more than Martin, who if the photos are any judge, looked quite small in stature, while Zimmerman looked like a bit of a heifer.

Actually I haven't seen any actual weights for either, but what we do know is that Zimmerman is 5'9" and Martin was 6'3", I'm not sure that matters, weight can be muscle or fat, and from what's been related by the one eye-witness to the actual fight, and backed up by the injuries Zimmerman sustained, it does appear that it was Martin who was doing the beating.

Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.
Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.

One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.
When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

So out of all these other witnesses, only one saw it as Zimmerman saw it? Really? All the others were blind and deaf and were making it up to the police at the time and before this became an international story?

But you use witnesses, like the Dog Walker above to corroborate your story, and they didn't see it like you claim they did.

Also why weren't his clothes gathered as evidence and why wasn't he drug and alcohol tested?

Don't know.
How does this have any bearing on what happened?
This isn't a case where the police are gathering forensic evidence so later they can use fiber evidence to prove that X was at the scene and did the shooting. They already know who was there and they already know who did the shooting.

Why was it a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective who investigated this case?

Don't know, it's a small town though, so maybe that's what they had available. I would still presume any Detective is smart enough about crime scenes to know how to handle a case like this however.

This is crucial evidence. Did he have to surrender his firearm immediately after?

Don't know. My guess is yes but I haven't seen anything specifically about that.
Again, there was no question about who shot who and with what weapon.

Why was he allowed to maintain and keep his permit to carry a concealed weapon, even after all of this started coming out?

Don't know that he was, and as far as I can tell, nothing has "come out" that doen't seem to support his story of what happened, so until he is actually charged with a crime I'm not sure why he would lose his permit.

There are so many questions that need to be asked and now with so much evidence lost due to the police lack of action and their general incompetence, how fair do you think this trial (if there will be a trial) will be on behalf of the victim?

Well I think ALL those questions are being asked.
But I disagree that much, if any, evidence has been lost.
He did have a gash on the back of his head.
He did get a broken nose.
He was treated by paramedics at the scene, so there are going to be medical reports.
A witness did put him with his back on the ground and Martin on top laying a beating on him.
His t-shirt was reported in the police report as having grass on the back, so even if they didn't keep his shirt, there is on-site testimony about it's condition.

Did they test him for Alcohol or drugs? Apparently not, but then police are pretty good at telling if someone is acting like they are on either, so I'm not overly concerned that they didn't.

As for my supposedly jumping to conclusions

Absolutely, and you then justify jumping to conclusions based on simple one-sided infotainment masquerading as journalism.

The clothes he was wearing weren't even take into evidence..

It defies belief to be honest..

So? What do Zimmerman's clothes have to do with this?

We KNOW there was contact between the two men, how else does one get a gash on the back of one's head and his nose broken? Eye-witnesses put Martin on top before the shooting, and Zimmerman on top, holding the wound, after the shooting. So both would have been lying on the ground at one time with the other on top, so the clothes can't be used to deny the fact that there was a struggle or prove who was on top of who, when.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman didn't precipitate this event by his overzealous prosecution of his self elected position as "watch captain".

He did.

But so far we've seen no evidence to justify Martin laying a beating on him either.

And, under Fl law, once someone started beating on him to the extent that his injuries suggest that Martin did, then the law protects Zimmerman for using his weapon to defend himself.

As I've pointed out already.

I think the law needs rework.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but to start with I think that anyone with a CC permit that is carrying a gun and is engaged in any quasi law enforcement type activities, including what Zimmerman was doing, has to have some training to do so before they can carry a gun on one of these patrols and I think they have to also have other options for defense besides just a gun.

 

[Nasor]

Can you pin someone who weighs about 100 pounds more than you to the ground and keep him down and keep punching him?

Sure. It's entirely plausible that a fit highschool athlete (which Martin was) could get the upper hand in a fight against a fat, out-of-shape guy (which Zimmerman appears to be). Extra fat doesn't help much if you're trying to get someone off of you in a fight. Zimmerman reportedly had a broken nose and cuts on the back of his head, which is consistent with his claim that Martin punched him and then straddled him and slammed the back of Zimmerman's head into the ground.

 

[Bells]

Q-tips might be in order.
What ever is being said on that tape, it's clearly not COON.
There is no long O sound.

As far as being "cleared up", there appears to be nothing to clear up, as only the blogosphere seems to be repeating that version of what's on the tape.

I'd suggest you take your own advice for the Q-tip. Or possibly an irrigation tool as Q-tips actually push wax deeper into your ear canal, which could explain why you aren't hearing things properly..

Don't know that they did.
There are likely procedures to go through to get it released.
What evidence do you have that it was withheld from the lawyers longer than normal? Why do you think elapsed time for release was important anyway?

Rand said that she also heard Zimmerman say the slur. Later in the show, though, she said that her law office had analyzed the tape it had been given by the police and could not find that portion there.​

Rand is a lawyer representing the Martin family.

Again you change the words used to suit your slanted narrative.

The dispatcher said "we don't NEED you to do that", which is not the same as "Don't do that".

I shall correct my language then.

So why did he follow even though the 911 operator told him that they (police) did not "need" him to do that?

Quite possibly.
So?
Does that change what happened during the fight between the two men?

Yes. An unarmed teenage boy was killed because he was the black kid walking to his father's house and the over-zealot self appointed neighbourhood watch 'captain' saw a "fucking coon" acting suspiciously and decided to chase him, whereupon Martin stood his ground and defended himself before he was shot at close range..

Eyewitnesses placed Zimmerman sitting on Martin's chest when he shot Martin..

Again that's not exactly true either. A number of people have also identified it as Zimmerman's voice, and the police are saying it is Zimmerman, and a witness to the scene, who saw and heard who was crying out, said it was Zimmerman. Indeed, it's much more logical that the guy with the broken nose, fat lip and gash in the back of the head would be doing so vs the person giving him that beating.

I believe it is only one person who has identified it as Zimmerman's voice and the rest, witnesses to the shooting and those who knew Martin advised it was Martin's voice.

Unless you wish to claim that Martin's parents don't know the voice of their own son?

No, that is not true either Bells.

I linked an article earlier when one witness saw them separate and on the grass before Martin was shot..

As to the other witness you just quoted, the salient point is that "Mary Cutcher ... neither saw the shooting nor the preceding altercation", what she saw was after the shooting and is consistent with Zimmerman checking on Martin's condition:

“I thought he’s holding the wound, helping the guy taking a pulse, making sure he’s okay. When she called to him three times, everything okay, what’s going on? Each time he looked back, didn’t say anything and then the third time he finally said, ‘just call the police.’”



So again, the one eyewitness we have to the fight said it was Martin on top and giving Zimmerman a beating, not at all like your rendition of events.

Actually Cutcher advised that Zimmerman was not doing anything to help Martin.

A woman who says she and her roommate witnessed the final moments of Trayvon Martin's life told Dateline NBC that George Zimmerman had "his hands pressed on his back" and "never turned him over or tried to help him."

Zimmerman's lawyer, when shown part of the interview being aired Sunday night on Dateline, emphasized that his client would be claiming self-defense.

"I think there were efforts made to render aid to Trayvon," Craig Sonner told NBC's TODAY show.

Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."

Cutcher added that Zimmerman told her and her roommate to call the police.

"Zimmerman never turned him over or tried to help him or CPR or anything," Cutcher said.

​

Because you help someone you have just shot in the chest by holding their body face down into the ground by pressing on that person's back?

The police did CPR, Zimmerman did not. On the contrary, Zimmerman pressed his body face down into the ground with his hands on Martin's back.

From what I understand that's sort of standard practice to find out how sure they are of what they saw. I mean I see that all the time on what appear to be realistic police shows, the typical: "are your sure it wasn't xxxxx, and not yyyyy that you saw?", but that's TV and I'm not a policeman, still it seems like a reasonable course of action for finding out what actually happened when dealing with eye witnesses. Challenge them and see how certain they are.

'Are you sure you saw xxxx' is very different to correcting an eyewitness and telling them that 'no, the voice you heard was Zimmerman's and not Martin's', before the police had even heard the tape of the 911 calls..

I can assure you, it is not standard practice to tell an eyewitness what they saw or heard. Quite the contrary. That's the kind of stuff that gets cases thrown out of court and charges of police tampering being made.

Actually I haven't seen any actual weights for either, but what we do know is that Zimmerman is 5'9" and Martin was 6'3", I'm not sure that matters, weight can be muscle or fat, and from what's been related by the one eye-witness to the actual fight, and backed up by the injuries Zimmerman sustained, it does appear that it was Martin who was doing the beating.

Zimmerman weighed 100 pounds more than Martin.

While it was Martin who may have done the beating after he was pursued by an armed man down darkened streets, it was Martin who stood his ground against his pursuer and was shot and killed in the process.

But you use witnesses, like the Dog Walker above to corroborate your story, and they didn't see it like you claim they did.

Like your claim that one witness saw Zimmerman checking Martin and helping him after he had shot him when the witness actually saw the complete opposite and Zimmerman was pressing on Martin's back as Martin lay face down on the ground?

Don't know.
How does this have any bearing on what happened?
This isn't a case where the police are gathering forensic evidence so later they can use fiber evidence to prove that X was at the scene and did the shooting. They already know who was there and they already know who did the shooting.

Are you aware that they did drug and alcohol tests on Martin, but not Zimmerman? And isn't it standard operating procedure to gather evidence, including the clothing worn by shooters who kill people? It is here.

Not only did they fail to even check or collect the evidence to corroborate Zimmerman's story, they also failed to bother trying to identify Martin, who had his cellphone on him when he was killed:

They bagged Martin’s body and took it away, labeling him a “John Doe,” even though they had his cellphone, which anyone, let alone law enforcement with a shooting victim, could have used to easily identify a person. They tested Martin’s corpse for drugs and alcohol. Zimmerman was not tested. Neighbors say that Zimmerman loaded things into a U-Haul truck and left the area.​

It defies logic really..

Don't know, it's a small town though, so maybe that's what they had available. I would still presume any Detective is smart enough about crime scenes to know how to handle a case like this however.

Like police officers who attempt to correct eyewitness testimony and then we have this gem..

A volunteer community watch captain who shot an unarmed Florida teenager to death last month had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics, a homeowner said.

_________________________________________

Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner's association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.

The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter.

​

Don't know that he was, and as far as I can tell, nothing has "come out" that doen't seem to support his story of what happened, so until he is actually charged with a crime I'm not sure why he would lose his permit.

It doesn't disturb you that he still has his license?

Apparently the police took his gun, but not his permit:

Zimmerman no longer possesses the gun he used to kill Martin. But he still has a permit to carry a concealed weapon—and, thanks to Florida's gun laws, he still has the right to buy a new handgun instantly and travel to 35 other states while packing heat.​

Comforting, isn't it?

Well I think ALL those questions are being asked.
But I disagree that much, if any, evidence has been lost.
He did have a gash on the back of his head.
He did get a broken nose.
He was treated by paramedics at the scene, so there are going to be medical reports.
A witness did put him with his back on the ground and Martin on top laying a beating on him.
His t-shirt was reported in the police report as having grass on the back, so even if they didn't keep his shirt, there is on-site testimony about it's condition.

Did they test him for Alcohol or drugs? Apparently not, but then police are pretty good at telling if someone is acting like they are on either, so I'm not overly concerned that they didn't.

I am concerned that they did not.

What we do have is a dead teenager and a neighbourhood watch captain driving around with a loaded weapon and instead of 'watching' and reporting to the police, he took the law into his own hands and chased down an unarmed teenager who then stood his ground and he then shot that unarmed teenager. And what was that teenager doing that caused Zimmerman to take after him with a gun? He was walking home with a packet of lollies and a can of iced tea. Huge crime!

We also have reports of Zimmerman's neighbours filing complaints with the police about his aggressive tactics in his neighbourhood watch role. Not to mention the fact that the police detective involved in those complaints was the same detective who is now investigating this case.. And a police department with a history of protecting people who attack and shoot black people.. really.. it defies belief.

I'm not saying that Zimmerman didn't precipitate this event by his overzealous prosecution of his self elected position as "watch captain".

He did.

But so far we've seen no evidence to justify Martin laying a beating on him either.

You don't think being chased by a strange man who gets out of his car to chase you on a dark street warrants defending yourself against strange armed man?

And, under Fl law, once someone started beating on him to the extent that his injuries suggest that Martin did, then the law protects Zimmerman for using his weapon to defend himself.

You mean the broken nose and cut on the back of his head that did not even require a trip to the hospital.. a beating given by someone who weighs 100 pounds less than you? On an armed man carrying a loaded weapon with a record of aggressive behaviour and a police record for assaulting a police officer? That's the line you want to go with there?

As I've pointed out already.

I think the law needs rework.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but to start with I think that anyone with a CC permit that is carrying a gun and is engaged in any quasi law enforcement type activities, including what Zimmerman was doing, has to have some training to do so before they can carry a gun on one of these patrols and I think they have to also have other options for defense besides just a gun.

Neighbourhood watch is not about driving around local streets with a loaded weapon and making yourself out to be a quasi police officer and instead of 'watching', as the name suggests, actually getting out of his car and chasing unarmed teenagers down for doing nothing more than walking home with a packet of lollies and a can of ice tea.

 

[quadraphonics]

If what I read this morning is correct, Zimmerman also had a broken nose (agrees with early police reports that he had a bloody face) and a gash in the back of his head, which would be corroborating physical evidence that backs up Zimmerman's claim that the shooting was to prevent serious personal injury, which is all that is required by Florida law to allow him to legally use his weapon. (The FL law does appear to be quite lenient in this regard).

The same Florida law also permits Trayvon Martin to use deadly force against Zimmerman for stalking and attacking him - with a deadly weapon, no less!

Or rather, it would, if Martin had survived instead of Zimmerman. This law basically legalizes gunfights - and is already being systematically abused by criminal gangs to wage large gun battles without fear of legal prosecution. It's completely inane.

I think, from what I've read that Zimmerman was not a racist.

Did you read the part where he calls Trayvon Martin a "fucking coon" - to a 911 dispatcher, no less - minutes before accosting and murdering him?

He was acting appropriately in his "Watch Captain" role,

Carrying a gun and ignoring warnings from a 911 dispatcher not to engage are not "appropriate" actions for a neighboorhood watch participant. They are explicit violations of the standard neighborhood watch guidelines. They are, moverover, exactly the sorts of things that dangerous wanna-be vigilantes tend to do, and which the rest of us do not tolerate exactly because they lead to outcomes like this one.

friends and family say adamantly that he is not a racist.

When has that ever been exclusive of somebody being racist? Especially considering the circumstances and the consequent incentives for said friends and family to exculpate him.

But, to be clear: nobody is saying the guy is a card-carrying Klan member. Just your usual oblivious racist who treats black, male youths with a level of unjustified suspicion and double-standards that result in drastically different treatment and assumptions.

Although, the real offense here is the Florida institutions themselves are similarly racist and so back him up instead of arresting and charging him.

Something was likely said between them that quickly escalated into a physical altercation and though smaller and younger, the scrappy football playing Martin probably laid a beating on Zimmerman like he was a rented mule, knocking him to the ground and breaking his nose

Possible, but bear in mind that Zimmerman outweighed Martin by over 100 pounds. I have roughly zero sympathy for an armed dude who stalks and accosts a kid half his size at night. The rational presumption on Martin's part would have to have been that Zimmerman was a dangerous criminal intending to do great bodily harm - or worse - to Martin. Which also happens to be exactly the truth.

And that we have no actual evidence of this besides Zimmerman's own word, after the fact, when the cops have showed up in response to him killing an unarmed black kid half his size.

Zimmerman was hurt (not that bad but a broken nose really hurts)

Or so he says - yet he didn't bother seeking medical attention for this supposed broken bone.

The regulations/training for someone who has a permit to carry a gun and is ALSO in a quasi law enforcement role needs to be looked at.

This term "quasi law enforcement role" means "vigilante," yes?

It's one thing to carry a gun for self protection but this is quite different than carrying a gun in a role where you make 40+ calls to 9/11 over an 8 year period.

By the way, have you looked up how many of those calls were to report black youths doing nothing in particular? This wasn't the first time he targetted black kids for no defensible reason. It's just the first time he killed one.

 

[adoucette]

I'd suggest you take your own advice for the Q-tip. Or possibly an irrigation tool as Q-tips actually push wax deeper into your ear canal, which could explain why you aren't hearing things properly..

Nah, this part of the story has no legs.
Impartial people don't agree with you.

To me he clearly doesn't say COONS, but CONES, (and I know you don't live here, but that racial slur is really archaic), but with that long O sound clearly audible, I don't believe your version will last.

Rand said that she also heard Zimmerman say the slur. Later in the show, though, she said that her law office had analyzed the tape it had been given by the police and could not find that portion there.​

Rand is a lawyer representing the Martin family.

Yeah, a lawyer for the Martins is not an unbiased source.

I shall correct my language then.

So why did he follow even though the 911 operator told him that they (police) did not "need" him to do that?

As I said, he's over-zealous.

Yes. An unarmed teenage boy was killed because he was the black kid walking to his father's house and the over-zealot self appointed neighbourhood watch 'captain' saw a "fucking coon" acting suspiciously and decided to chase him, whereupon Martin stood his ground and defended himself before he was shot at close range..

No, you can't assert that he called him a "fucking coon" Bells.

Breaking a guys nose, fattening his lip and putting a gash in the back of the head is not defending himself though.

Not when the only eye-witness to the actual fight has Zimmerman on the ground and Martin bashing his head against the pavement.

Eyewitnesses placed Zimmerman sitting on Martin's chest when he shot Martin..

No they don't.
They have him there AFTER the shot was fired.

I thought he’s holding the wound, helping the guy taking a pulse, making sure he’s okay

Prior to the shot, Martin is on top of Zimmerman.

One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.

I believe it is only one person who has identified it as Zimmerman's voice and the rest, witnesses to the shooting and those who knew Martin advised it was Martin's voice.

Yeah, the one eye-witness above who actually saw the fight and heard it LIVE who said it was UNEQUIVOCAL that it was Zimmerman crying for help.

Unless you wish to claim that Martin's parents don't know the voice of their own son?

Yeah, a poor recording like they have can make it much harder to identify, but luckily we have an Eye Witness who was there and can tell us who it was.

I linked an article earlier when one witness saw them separate and on the grass before Martin was shot..

Ah, you are going to have to quote that again Bells, can't fine ANY testimony like that in any articles.

As far as I know only ONE person saw it, is quoted above and that's not in their version.

Actually Cutcher advised that Zimmerman was not doing anything to help Martin.

A woman who says she and her roommate witnessed the final moments of Trayvon Martin's life told Dateline NBC that George Zimmerman had "his hands pressed on his back" and "never turned him over or tried to help him."
Zimmerman's lawyer, when shown part of the interview being aired Sunday night on Dateline, emphasized that his client would be claiming self-defense.

"I think there were efforts made to render aid to Trayvon," Craig Sonner told NBC's TODAY show.

Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."

Cutcher added that Zimmerman told her and her roommate to call the police.

"Zimmerman never turned him over or tried to help him or CPR or anything," Cutcher said.

​

And yet earlier Cutcher said: “I thought he’s holding the wound, helping the guy taking a pulse, making sure he’s okay. "

So not turning him over doesn't mean he wasn't trying to help by putting pressure on the wound.

Because you help someone you have just shot in the chest by holding their body face down into the ground by pressing on that person's back?

Yeah, if that's where the blood is coming from (exit wounds tend to be much worse than entry wounds)

The police did CPR, Zimmerman did not. On the contrary, Zimmerman pressed his body face down into the ground with his hands on Martin's back.

Just because he doesn't do CPR doesn't mean he wasn't trying to stop the bleeding.

'Are you sure you saw xxxx' is very different to correcting an eyewitness and telling them that 'no, the voice you heard was Zimmerman's and not Martin's', before the police had even heard the tape of the 911 calls..

I can assure you, it is not standard practice to tell an eyewitness what they saw or heard. Quite the contrary. That's the kind of stuff that gets cases thrown out of court and charges of police tampering being made.

No it's not Bells. Questioning witnesses can be done by challenging their statements.

Zimmerman weighed 100 pounds more than Martin.

So you've seen the autopsy report Bells?
You've weighed Zimmerman?

While it was Martin who may have done the beating after he was pursued by an armed man down darkened streets, it was Martin who stood his ground against his pursuer and was shot and killed in the process.

So? Unless Zimmerman pulled his gun prior to the beating, Martin had no right to beat him like he did. No witness has said that was the case.

Like your claim that one witness saw Zimmerman checking Martin and helping him after he had shot him when the witness actually saw the complete opposite and Zimmerman was pressing on Martin's back as Martin lay face down on the ground?

Nope, that was the SAME witness.

Are you aware that they did drug and alcohol tests on Martin, but not Zimmerman? And isn't it standard operating procedure to gather evidence, including the clothing worn by shooters who kill people? It is here.

I'm sure it is standard practice during an autopsy.
So?
As to clothing, you still haven't made a single argument as to the value of his clothes to this case.

Not only did they fail to even check or collect the evidence to corroborate Zimmerman's story, they also failed to bother trying to identify Martin, who had his cellphone on him when he was killed:

They bagged Martin’s body and took it away, labeling him a “John Doe,” even though they had his cellphone, which anyone, let alone law enforcement with a shooting victim, could have used to easily identify a person. They tested Martin’s corpse for drugs and alcohol. Zimmerman was not tested. Neighbors say that Zimmerman loaded things into a U-Haul truck and left the area.​

No, they did collect evidence and testimony and so far, all I've seen seems to corroborate his story. I've yet to hear a single piece of evidence that clearly disputes anything Zimmerman has said (and considering the heat the police are getting on this, I do believe if they catch him in even one lie I think he is toast)

BS, this isn't TV. You can't find out who someone is based on their phone without a Warrant. If it's my phone you found you couldn't even unlock it to find it's number or recent numbers dialed etc, besides, I'm not sure why you think identifing him as fast as possible was such a critical issue. I'm guessing the police would expect to be called by someone looking for him.

It doesn't disturb you that he still has his license?

Apparently the police took his gun, but not his permit:

Zimmerman no longer possesses the gun he used to kill Martin. But he still has a permit to carry a concealed weapon—and, thanks to Florida's gun laws, he still has the right to buy a new handgun instantly and travel to 35 other states while packing heat.​

Comforting, isn't it?

Not particularly comforted or worried about it Bells, but then the New Black Panthers did put out a $10,000 bounty on him, so yeah, since he hasn't been charged with a crime I see no legal reason they can take away his permit.

I am concerned that they did not.

Again, based on what?
No one has said he was acting like he had been drinking or on drugs.

What we do have is a dead teenager and a neighbourhood watch captain driving around with a loaded weapon and instead of 'watching' and reporting to the police, he took the law into his own hands and chased down an unarmed teenager who then stood his ground and he then shot that unarmed teenager. And what was that teenager doing that caused Zimmerman to take after him with a gun? He was walking home with a packet of lollies and a can of iced tea. Huge crime!

No Bells, he didn't just stand his ground. In Zimmerman's account, he was walking back to his car when Martin hit him. No one has come forward and said that's not what happend, but what we do have an eyewitness to is that a 6'3" MAN was beating the crap out of someone by pounding their head into the pavement.

You don't think being chased by a strange man who gets out of his car to chase you on a dark street warrants defending yourself against strange armed man?

Sure, stand your ground, that doesn't give you the right to lay a beating on him.

You mean the broken nose and cut on the back of his head that did not even require a trip to the hospital..

But the law does NOT require you to wait UNTIL the person beating you does serious personal injury Bells. The fat lip, the broken nose and the gash on the back of the head is probably sufficient to justify the legal basis for acting based on the fear of serious personal injury.

a beating given by someone who weighs 100 pounds less than you? On an armed man carrying a loaded weapon with a record of aggressive behaviour and a police record for assaulting a police officer? That's the line you want to go with there?

Not my line Bells, but then I don't think a prosecuter can use any of those to negate the legal basis for Zimmerman's fear of serious personal injury.