Justice and Security: Neighborhood Watch Captain Attacks, Kills Unarmed Teenager

[James R]

Saturnine Pariah:

I used to care...now all i care about are is how to deal with people like you. Shoot first ask questions never, it's very hard to ask a dead man questions.

Are you threatening me?

That’s my code and I’m sticking to it and furthermore why care about an incident that has nothing to do with you?

Because I could be the next victim of some vigilante with a gun like this neighbourhood watch guy. You could be too.

Society needs to deal with these issues to protect citizens.

That's the real question, why do any of us even care in the slightest over an "tragedy" that the media so called it, when there are bigger much more complex problems that are affecting the world, I try not to waste my time on such mundane little arguments similar to this one...

Can't you multitask?

I wasted my time writing this in response to your post and after this you won't have to deal with me in this particular thread anymore and furthermore...I don't give a fuck about your moral conundrums or your bleeding heart bullshit. Good Day.

But obviously you do give a fuck, or you wouldn't have posted here in the first place. From my point of view, it looks like you're just cheer-leading for the NRA or something. Is that it? Guns are good - point made?

You seem very angry for somebody who says he doesn't give a fuck.

 

[Asguard]

Even the nuts at the NRA are condemning this, even the republicans who wrote the laws are condemning this. My cynical side says this is because if they don't then they will become the targets but they are still condemning this

 

[madanthonywayne]

The Defense has a witness:

.
The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to. And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen

.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

 

[Asguard]

Even if true so what? That shows that the teen was defending himself as HE is allowed to under the don't back down laws. It's still murder

 

[Bells]

The Defense has a witness:
.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

And yet other witnesses who have come forward as well as the parents and people who knew Martin advised that the person yelling for help (which was recorded in the many 911 calls that were being made at that time) was in fact Martin. There are actual recordings of Martin screaming for help a few seconds before he was shot. Other witnesses also saw the scuffle and at no time was Zimmerman walking back to his car.

 

[pjdude1219]

I used to care...now all i care about are is how to deal with people like you. Shoot first ask questions never, it's very hard to ask a dead man questions. That’s my code and I’m sticking to it and furthermore why care about an incident that has nothing to do with you? That's the real question, why do any of us even care in the slightest over an "tragedy" that the media so called it, when there are bigger much more complex problems that are affecting the world, I try not to waste my time on such mundane little arguments similar to this one...regardless there is always one person that hits my button whom i just need to fight. I wasted my time writing this in response to your post and after this you won't have to deal with me in this particular thread anymore and furthermore...I don't give a fuck about your moral conundrums or your bleeding heart bullshit. Good Day.

didn't you flip a shit when i said floridians called the law the shoot first ask questions later law?


Shoot first ask questions never


thank you for proving that this law needs to be repealed and you CCW and gun license need to be revoked.

 

[adoucette]

That's an interpretation of it, but "stalking" isn't per se illegal when it amounts to "following," on a single occasion. Also, Zimmerman asserted that the victim assaulted him, then the police need "probable cause" to disbelieve Zimmeman before they arrest him. That means a mere suspicion that Zimmerman attacked the victim is not enough, they need evidence sufficient to meet the probable cause standard.

Granted that this is a case where, by killing the witness Martin, Zimmerman made sure his was only version of events the police could consider, but the law says "probable cause" not "reasonable suspicion" that the justification defense won't fly. So the police are very likely correct that the law forbade them from arresting Zimmerman.

If what I read this morning is correct, Zimmerman also had a broken nose (agrees with early police reports that he had a bloody face) and a gash in the back of his head, which would be corroborating physical evidence that backs up Zimmerman's claim that the shooting was to prevent serious personal injury, which is all that is required by Florida law to allow him to legally use his weapon. (The FL law does appear to be quite lenient in this regard).

PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS:

I think, from what I've read that Zimmerman was not a racist. He was acting appropriately in his "Watch Captain" role, he's been at it for nearly a decade and friends and family say adamantly that he is not a racist.

BUT

I think he was probably not a trained in martial arts either, and his confidence and courage was artificially bolstered by the gun he carried with him (which a close friend said this morning that he didn't even know he had)

AND

I think he really pissed the 17 year old kid off when he confronted/stopped/questioned him when the kid was doing nothing more than returning home after a run to the store for a snack and something to drink (walking while Black).

AND

Something was likely said between them that quickly escalated into a physical altercation and though smaller and younger, the scrappy football playing Martin probably laid a beating on Zimmerman like he was a rented mule, knocking him to the ground and breaking his nose

AND

Zimmerman was hurt (not that bad but a broken nose really hurts) and was crying and it was hard to breathe and he panicked and stopped the beating Martin was giving him the only way he could (his picture seems to be more of a "dough boy" then a scrapper) and he pulled his gun and shot Martin dead.

AND

Even though he followed Martin when the police told him they "didn't need him to do that" it would appear that unless someone saw Zimmerman pointing the gun at Martin BEFORE the fight started, that with the injuries he sustained that the existing FL law will come down on Zimmerman's side.

The law needs to be reworked.

The regulations/training for someone who has a permit to carry a gun and is ALSO in a quasi law enforcement role needs to be looked at. It's one thing to carry a gun for self protection but this is quite different than carrying a gun in a role where you make 40+ calls to 9/11 over an 8 year period. The likelihood of getting into an altercation like this goes way up and so the required training (so as to not to need to use the gun) also goes up.

 

[Asguard]

If the law gives "self defence" to someone ON A PUBLIC STREET, who stalked and confronted a CHILD with a gun then the law is fucked up. The person who had the right to defend himself should have been with the child who wasn't the aggressor. You know reading your post I thought back to the school bully, when the child finally fights back all of a sudden the bully shoots him and claims self defence. That's what your arguing

 

[adoucette]

What part of "The law needs to be reworked" did you not understand?

I didn't write the law and I'm not arguing that the law was well written either, but the existing law is what this event will be judged on and so far it appears to me that the law slightly favors Zimmerman.

Remember, he's presumed innocent, and if this morning's report is correct, that he had a gash on the back of his head, his clothes were grass stained and he had a broken nose, then use of the gun will likely fall within the lenient requirements of Florida's laws allowing use to prevent serious personal injury.

 

[adoucette]

The regulations/training for someone who has a permit to carry a gun and is ALSO in a quasi law enforcement role needs to be looked at. It's one thing to carry a gun for self protection but this is quite different than carrying a gun in a role where you make 40+ calls to 9/11 over an 8 year period. The likelihood of getting into an altercation like this goes way up and so the required training (so as to not to need to use the gun) also goes up.

It occurs to me that one of the major things that the police have, that Zimmerman didn't have in his quasi law enforcement role, was anything but a gun.

In other words no other means of escalating force but a lethal one.

Seems a reasonable requirement for carrying a gun in this situation would be to also have sufficient martial arts training to defend oneself and to be carrying other less lethal weapons as well.

Mace, Batons and Tasers all come to mind as something which a trained officer would probably deploy in this situation well prior to pulling their gun.

Wouldn't similar situations occur much more frequently if the only weapon the police carried were their guns?

 

[pjdude1219]

The Defense has a witness:
.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

you mean the guy who police "corrected"?

 

[Rhaedas]

Mace, Batons and Tasers all come to mind as something which a trained officer would probably deploy in this situation well prior to pulling their gun.

Wouldn't similar situations occur much more frequently if the only weapon the police carried were their guns?

Plus the training, not only in proper weapon use and when to use them, but in how to handle situations so they don't escalate into a problem.

 

[iceaura]

I think, from what I've read that Zimmerman was not a racist. He was acting appropriately in his "Watch Captain" role, he's been at it for nearly a decade and friends and family say adamantly that he is not a racist.

He is probably racist, anyway. That would be the way to bet - what exactly was suspicious about a teenager walking down the sidewalk?

that Zimmerman didn't have in his quasi law enforcement role, was anything but a gun.

In other words no other means of escalating force but a lethal one.

That's a good point.

It applies to almost all the normal justifications for concealed carry, handgun and gun ownership in general, and so forth - it seems reasonable to put extra restrictions on gun use, beyond ordinary self defense, when the one step of escalation is so steep.

Whether it applies to this is kind of uncertain - what escalation of force would have been proper for Zimmerman? If he had tased the kid for walking down the sidewalk, would that have been more appropriate?

I'm not clear on exactly how Zimmerman obtained the status of "quasi law enforcement" in all this - there appears to have been no actual Neighborhood Watch to be "Captain" of, for example, so where did that kind of language come from?

 

[adoucette]

He is probably racist, anyway. That would be the way to bet - what exactly was suspicious about a teenager walking down the sidewalk?

Well his friend that has been speaking up on his behalf is black and him and his wife have been apparently "mentoring" two black kids, so it argues against him being racist.

That's a good point.

It applies to almost all the normal justifications for concealed carry, handgun and gun ownership in general, and so forth - it seems reasonable to put extra restrictions on gun use, beyond ordinary self defense, when the one step of escalation is so steep.

Whether it applies to this is kind of uncertain - what escalation of force would have been proper for Zimmerman? If he had tased the kid for walking down the sidewalk, would that have been more appropriate?

Well yeah, in that the kid would still be alive and could tell his side of the story.
In this case we won't ever get Martin's version of what happened that night.

I'm not clear on exactly how Zimmerman obtained the status of "quasi law enforcement" in all this - there appears to have been no actual Neighborhood Watch to be "Captain" of, for example, so where did that kind of language come from?

Just repeating what I've read/heard several times about him being a "watch captain":

ORLANDO — A neighborhood watch captain who fatally shot an unarmed black teenager last month in Florida is not racist and the facts will show he acted in self-defense as he originally told police, an attorney who says he represents the man said Friday.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-n...s-attorney-zimmermans-not-a-racist-ar-384482/

 

[spidergoat]

I don't think what Zimmerman did was justifiable, but you do have to understand what a shitty and dangerous place Florida has become. My grandfather moved there in the 1950's and built his own house. It was an idyllic existence until the early 90s, by which time his neighborhood had abandoned crack houses in it, and my grandmother got mugged (by a black guy) in her front yard, breaking her arm. If my grandfather made it outside with his .45 in time, he would have killed the guy, no question, but he got away. Zimmerman was not entirely unjustified in his paranoia, he just happened to pick the wrong person for his suspicions.

 

[Balerion]

So the kid was getting the better of the older man. How is that justification for lethal force? I thought the law stated there needed to be a reasonable belief that your life was in danger, not "I'm getting my ass handed to me be a teenager".

 

[adoucette]

I'm not sure I'd use the term "justification" either, but as I said, the FL law seems pretty lenient in that regard and apparently doesn't require you to think your life is actually in danger.

According to what was posted earlier on the Concealed Weapons FAQs:

Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm.

Well if the guy does have a gash on the back of his head and a broken nose, he probably has a reasonable legal argument that he was protecting himself from serious bodily harm.

I'm just presuming here, but I think that it's the extent of his injuries and not his story alone, that has kept him out of jail so far.

 

[Bells]

I'm not sure I'd use the term "justification" either, but as I said, the FL law seems pretty lenient in that regard and apparently doesn't require you to think your life is actually in danger.

According to what was posted earlier on the Concealed Weapons FAQs:

Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm.

Well if the guy does have a gash on the back of his head and a broken nose, he probably has a reasonable legal argument that he was protecting himself from serious bodily harm.

I'm just presuming here, but I think that it's the extent of his injuries and not his story alone, that has kept him out of jail so far.

The bigger question is why was he following Martin in the first place? The boy was merely walking home while talking to his girlfriend on the phone. Was he racially profiled by the self appointed neighbourhood watch 'captain', Zimmerman? With his uttering the racist comment on the phone to the 911 operator as he took chase, that is quite likely.

Martin's girlfriend who heard the start of the altercation and had heard Martin say to her on the phone that a person was following him and she advised him to run and he said he was walking really fast and running.. away from Zimmerman.. corresponds with the 911 call where Zimmerman is heard to get out of breath as he chased Martin.. She then apparently heard the altercation where Martin was heard asking 'why are you chasing me' and then she heard scuffling and the phone went dead.. Which also corresponds to other witnesses who saw them fighting, one witness saw them fighting on the ground and then separate immediately before Martin was shot in the chest and Zimmerman was immediately found standing over the boy. Just prior to the gunshots, Martin is heard on the many 911 calls made at this time, screaming for help. This is based solely on what I have read and what has been linked in this thread..

In short, put yourself in Martin's shoes. You are a teenage boy, walking home on darkened streets and you see a man get out of his car and start chasing you. What would you do? The fact that Zimmerman chased him (while carrying a gun mind you) would make Zimmerman the aggressor in the first instance. If you go out of your way to aggressively chase and engage someone else who had been walking away from you in the first instance (remember, he got out of his car against police orders and chased Martin for no reason than that he was a black kid walking down his street), it cannot follow the stand your ground rules. If we follow those rules, it is Martin who stood his ground.

Also, the manner in which the police handled this case raises questions..

Attempting to alter people's statements to police by correcting witnesses when they recounted what they had seen, so that it fit in to Zimmerman's statements, which he gave by being led through his questions by a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective. The lack of gathering evidence at the scene (ie primarily his clothes and I believe Zimmerman is still allowed to carry a weapon on his person in public?.. Not to mention their failure to drug and alcohol test Zimmerman that night), along with failing to even bother trying to identify Martin, who sat in the morgue for 3 nights while the parents were filing reports. And then we look at the fact the police attempted to hide the 911 tape where Zimmerman is heard making racist comments, and those tapes were withheld not just from Martin's family lawyers, but also from the public when they released the tapes to detail what had happened. And the lies the police told Martin's family that Zimmerman was as clean as they come when he had been arrested for assault in the past. And then of course the tapes where it is Martin heard screaming for help and not Zimmerman, as they tried to portray it was Zimmerman based solely on what he told them.. Either the police in that part of Florida are completely incompetent or they are covering up for Zimmerman..

This case is ugly and bizarre and I suspect whatever happens, we will never truly know why the police did what they did..

 

[iceaura]

Just repeating what I've read/heard several times about him being a "watch captain":

We all have - that kind of language was the frame of most of the early news reports.

Where did it come from?

Well his friend that has been speaking up on his behalf is black and him and his wife have been apparently "mentoring" two black kids, so it argues against him being racist.

Not in comparison with his actions in following, calling the police on, and eventually confronting someone on the sidewalk for what - in the absence of racism - appears to have been no reason at all, at least none that we have heard of yet.

 

[Nasor]

If the law gives "self defence" to someone ON A PUBLIC STREET, who stalked and confronted a CHILD with a gun then the law is fucked up. The person who had the right to defend himself should have been with the child who wasn't the aggressor. You know reading your post I thought back to the school bully, when the child finally fights back all of a sudden the bully shoots him and claims self defence. That's what your arguing

Zimmerman claims that Martin attacked him from behind as Zimmerman was walking back to his car. If that's true, than Zimmerman would probably be justified in killing Martin in self defense. Although Zimmerman's behavior in following Martin would have been creepy/suspicious to Martin, that doesn't justify attacking someone. Of course that doesn't mean Zimmerman's claims are actually true, but it would probably be hard to prove that he's lying.