"Just as a candle cannot burn without fire, men cannot live without a spiritual life"

[S.A.M.]

How would you measure the level of "spiritual health" in a community? While the philosophies of the east, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, ect., may contain approaches to good mental health, they don't prevent it. They too, offer solutions after the fact. Many people that seek out Buddhist sanctuaries do so because they suffer.

I don't doubt that Buddhism encourages a kinder attitude towards the environment, but give me a scientist any day if I want to know what's really going on.

Those who seek out Buddhism may do so because they believe it can offer them something that may lessen their suffering.

But those societies which already have strong spiritual practices do not need to seek out Buddhism or other such.

Even atheists who seek spirituality in Buddhism first need to justify it to themselves by insisting on the non-theistic portions of Buddhism or by emphasising those portions to keep their ideologies intact even while they admit that the ideology itself cannot provide all the solutions. Others simply go into denial (as do many theists) and pretend what they do not acknowledge (i.e. spirituality) does not exist.

As for the environment, well there are scientists who give talks on the environment and there are scientists who invent new means of destroying it. Has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with people.

 

[(Q)]

One might say the rise in mental disorders in society is directed related to the decrease in spiritual and mental health.

While Islamic states mental health facilities and education are literally nonexistent, the US has mountains of information showing the annual costs for mental health in the billions of dollars. This in a country full of 'spirituality.'

Eastern spirituality provides for mind and body health and is a wholistic approach that embraces both personal, communal and environmental concerns.

Yet, mental health is a huge problem there also. One in four individuals.

While science can provide answers after the fact, prevention of the conditions which give rise to unhealthy stressors on mind and hence, body are not a scientific concern, but a spiritual one.

Uninformed, irrational, faith-based poppycock!

 

[SkinWalker]

Eastern spirituality provides for mind and body health and is a wholistic approach that embraces both personal, communal and environmental concerns.

To the mystery-monger and significance-junkie, this provides the backdrop for a chain of pseudoscientific thinking in bogus alternative medicine claims.

While science can provide answers after the fact, prevention of the conditions which give rise to unhealthy stressors on mind and hence, body are not a scientific concern, but a spiritual one.

And, yet, the rates of depression rival that found in the 'Western World' in at least some cases, in spite of Eastern philosophies and practices.

Life expectancy among Chinese in 2005 was an average of 72 [72.2] years, while in the United States, that figure was 78 [77.7].

Somebody forgot to tell 1.3 billion Chinese they're not only supposed to be happier but also longer-lived with their "preventative" methods of mental health.

In the fantasy-land of signficance-junkies and mystery-mongers that find Eastern philosophy appealing in its mystery and antiquity, those of the East have the "ancient Chinese secret" to living longer and removing stains from shirts, but in reality, they're just as human as the rest of us. Humans find coping mechanisms to deal with stress and societal pressures. Some work; some don't.

But, when it comes to mental health, they have no more cornered the market on prevention than a hot bath at the end of the day, running 6 miles in the morning, eating healthy, and exercising regularly.

 

[superluminal]

Those who seek out Buddhism may do so because they believe it can offer them something that may lessen their suffering.

That's good, right?

But those societies which already have strong spiritual practices do not need to seek out Buddhism or other such.

I agree. Why would a perfectly happy muslim terrorist society seek out anything different when they are perfectly at peace with themselves and the edicts of their leaders to kill and destroy, with great rewards waiting in the afterlife. I totally agree with you here sam.

Even atheists who seek spirituality in Buddhism first need to justify it to themselves by insisting on the non-theistic portions of Buddhism or by emphasising those portions to keep their ideologies intact even while they admit that the ideology itself cannot provide all the solutions.

Ok. Sounds good. Sounds like a rational approach to analyzing and incorporating the parts of a theory that work best for you. Good one sam.

Others simply go into denial (as do many theists) and pretend what they do not acknowledge does not exist.

I agree. It's a shame to see many theists denying the evidence of natural and non-supernatural phenomena all around them. You are so right sam.

As for the environment, well there are scientists who give talks on the environment and there are scientists who invent new means of destroying it. Has nothing to do with science, and everything to do with people.

Yes. No environmental scientist ever does anything more than talk about it. None ever go out and do incredible work in resource management or environmental protection. Where do you get these higher truths from sam? Please let us all know.

 

[S.A.M.]

While Islamic states mental health facilities and education are literally nonexistent, the US has mountains of information showing the annual costs for mental health in the billions of dollars. This in a country full of 'spirituality.'

Yet, mental health is a huge problem there also. One in four individuals.
Uninformed, irrational, faith-based poppycock!

Can't compare dictatorships established and maintained for economic reasons. The societies in the ME today are not representative of spiritually healthy populations. War and oppression has taken care of that.

 

[spidergoat]

But those societies which already have strong spiritual practices do not need to seek out Buddhism or other such.

This is contrary to Buddha's proposition that life is inherently suffering. There are no enlightened societies, only individuals. Buddhism is practiced as a religion in many places, but practice alone doesn't ensure freedom from suffering, only enlightenment can, which happens for some reason to be rare. Being a Buddhist doesn't ensure freedom from suffering or mental illness. Buddhism in essence is a religion of no-religion, it offers no salvation through belief alone. The component of Buddhist tradition that seems to align with previous theistic ones is more a product of cultural cross-over, much like the philosophy of Jesus.

 

[superluminal]

Can't compare dictatorships established and maintained for economic reasons. The societies in the ME today are not representative of spiritually healthy populations. War and oppression has taken care of that.

Post some links to spiritually healthy populations please. Data, data, data. Need some data.

 

[S.A.M.]

To the mystery-monger and significance-junkie, this provides the backdrop for a chain of pseudoscientific thinking in bogus alternative medicine claims.




And, yet, the rates of depression rival that found in the 'Western World' in at least some cases, in spite of Eastern philosophies and practices.

Life expectancy among Chinese in 2005 was an average of 72 [72.2] years, while in the United States, that figure was 78 [77.7].

Somebody forgot to tell 1.3 billion Chinese they're not only supposed to be happier but also longer-lived with their "preventative" methods of mental health.

In the fantasy-land of signficance-junkies and mystery-mongers that find Eastern philosophy appealing in its mystery and antiquity, those of the East have the "ancient Chinese secret" to living longer and removing stains from shirts, but in reality, they're just as human as the rest of us. Humans find coping mechanisms to deal with stress and societal pressures. Some work; some don't.

But, when it comes to mental health, they have no more cornered the market on prevention than a hot bath at the end of the day, running 6 miles in the morning, eating healthy, and exercising regularly.

Isn't the rate od depression related to Western intervention in economic and political policies?

Would you compare Chinese society today to Chinese society before communism or when Buddhism was the national religion?

 

[(Q)]

Can't compare dictatorships established and maintained for economic reasons. The societies in the ME today are not representative of spiritually healthy populations.

Why not? Doesn't the ME spout the fastest growing, peace loving, life-guided, spiritually enhancing, one and only true religion in the world?

So much for Islam.

 

[superluminal]

Isn't the rate of depression related to Western intervention in economic and political policies?

Oh, come now sam! You are losing all crredibility now. Don't post after pulling an all nighter and popping stimulants.

 

[S.A.M.]

This is contrary to Buddha's proposition that life is inherently suffering. There are no enlightened societies, only individuals. Buddhism is practiced as a religion in many places, but practice alone doesn't ensure freedom from suffering, only enlightenment can, which happens for some reason to be rare. Being a Buddhist doesn't ensure freedom from suffering or mental illness. Buddhism in essence is a religion of no-religion, it offers no salvation through belief alone. The component of Buddhist tradition that seems to align with previous theistic ones is more a product of cultural cross-over, much like the philosophy of Jesus.

Not really, all religions in the East have a large component of spirituality which seems entirely absent in religious practices in the West.

Even the rituals associated with religion in the East seem more geared to the mental stability of the individual than any I have seen here in the West. It may be why I see so many differences in outlook in comparison here.

The interaction between people is very different for one thing, with a greater emphasis on political correctness and less emphasis on building lasting relationships or willingness to entertain diversity in outlook. Any attempt at diversity seems to lead to divisiveness and building of camps with an us vs them mentality immediately taking precedence and a greater desire to put down the other person rather than an attempt to understand a different point of view. And I'm not talking about this forum, either, but my observation of real interactions here on campus, which I should presume reflects the educated and hence more "aware" strata of society. The emphasis is more on intellectual competition rather than intellectual curiosity.

 

[S.A.M.]

Oh, come now sam! You are losing all crredibility now. Don't post after pulling an all nighter and popping stimulants.

I doubt I had any credibility to lose here. I'm merely speaking my mind.
There is no compulsion to read or respond.

 

[superluminal]

Why not? Doesn't the ME spout the fastest growing, peace loving, life-guided, spiritually enhancing, one and only true religion in the world?

Don't you mean the fastest growing, peace loathing, self-guided sprite missile deploying, one and only true religion in the world?

 

[superluminal]

There is no compulsion to read or respond.

You must be joking.

 

[SkinWalker]

Real Buddhists believe in gods as a different concept than what is associated with Western theology

You must have never read any Buddhist scripture.

I've read a fair amount of Buddhist scripture and history. Gautama, later to be known as Buddha, arrived at a religious reform because of his disagreement with the nature of the Hindu cults that dominated his society.

Much like Muhammad's method of taking what he liked of other religious cults and adding what he thought was appropriate, Gautama invented his philosophy to replace religion and offer a common-sense approach to living. One that I have much difficulty in finding fault with.

Buddha rejected the usual aspects of religion: authority (people in a priestly class), ritual, speculation, tradition, grace, and mystery (avoidance of the supernatural).

The evidence of Buddha's rejection of gods and the supernatural comes in the form of The Four Noble Truths, which includes the Eight-Fold path:

I. Life is suffering (dukkha), meaning life is 'out of joint.' Dukkha would accurately describe bones without sockets or wheels without axles.

II. The cause of dukkha is tanha. Tanha is the 'desire for private gain.'

III. Overcoming desire (tanha) is the way to overcome dukkha.

IV. The way to overcome tanha is to follow the Eight-Fold Path:

1) Right views
2) Right intent (dedication; persistence)
3) Right speech
4) Right conduct (the 'five precepts')

i. do not kill
ii. do not steal
iii. do not lie
iv. do not be unchaste
v. do not drink alcohol​

5) Right livelihood
6) Right Effort (be industrious)
7) Right mindfulness (be aware of every action; be in control of senses and impulses; have thoughts of kindness).
8) Right concentration - involving techniques of raja yoga​

With Buddha's rejection of the supernatural -nirvana is the goal, which is the achievement of fully rejecting personal desires- there is no need for a god or gods; no need for the supernatural in one's life. Buddhism, therefore, isn't a religion in the sense that adherents seek to appeal to or appease a supernatural agent, but rather a philosophy or lifeway.

Mahayanists, of course, worship Buddha as a supernatural agent and pray to him, but this isn't the adherence to the Pali Canon. And, while there are some passages in the Pali Canon, that refer to various gods or levels of 'godness', there is no mention of, indeed a rejection of, a omnipotent creator god.
[/indent]

 

[S.A.M.]

Don't you mean the fastest growing, peace loathing, self-guided sprite missile deploying, one and only true religion in the world?

This is exactly what I mean. Demonising and putting down a people from a different culture, expecting them to have the social viewpoints of a Harpers Bazaar reader is a very convenient way t to ignore the sociopolitical realities of the situations which have led to the anger and frustration that has given power to that strata of society in the ME.

Idealistic notions of Oriental bazaars and chanting mullahs with 100,000 people praying in Mecca or "ragheads" screaming on television monitors are an effective way to look down on people while appearing to be polite and civil in the rhetoric against them.

 

[superluminal]

This is exactly what I mean. Demonising and putting down a people from a different culture, expecting them to have the social viewpoints of a...

Sounds like you, sam, when you talk about the west.

 

[S.A.M.]

I've read a fair amount of Buddhist scripture and history. Gautama, later to be known as Buddha, arrived at a religious reform because of his disagreement with the nature of the Hindu cults that dominated his society.

Buddha was never anti-theistic. His philosophy was irrelevant to the concept of God.

Buddhism is a more like a moral philosophy to end suffering and make life better. God is irrelevant in Buddhism, neither present nor absent.

He had no disagreements with Hinduism, he merely sought a way to end his own suffering. There was no desire or attempt to reform.

 

[SkinWalker]

Isn't the rate od depression related to Western intervention in economic and political policies?

Would you compare Chinese society today to Chinese society before communism or when Buddhism was the national religion?

Do you have data for this time? The answer is: "of course not." Speculation is all that exists. But one would expect if Eastern philosophies were any better at "preventing" stress, depression, etc, then there would be some measure of success. Somebody would still be using the practices. After all, governments can regulate how people behave, but they're much less successful in regulating how they think.

Face it: while Eastern philosophy is interesting and certainly not to be discounted as worthless, it proves to be no better than Western when viewed overall.

Science does a much better job at offering mental health advice, prevention and treatment. Period.

 

[superluminal]

Everything you say is wrong...

- Scriptures of enlightenment, samcdkey, cr 2006.