Just a question about god

Originally posted by Jenyar


I could go on, but my point is that our creation is very complex, and our 'design' was to love God.

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I say you're wrong. I say our design is to use our brains to facilitate mass transition of the species to the next level of consciousness. You are qualified to tell me that you are more correct than I regarding this matter? Your assertion is obviously your opinion that you arrive at through the evidence you've gathered in your mind, but it seems you are saying I should give a crap about your assumption? Of course it means a lot to you and I respect that, but I honestly think mine is far superior for reasons I'm sure I've stated throughout the threads. I'll listen, but I disagree completely.

The rest of your post is based on the shoddy assumption above, so in my opinion your argument is moot.
 
I could go on, but my point is that our creation is very complex, and our 'design' was to love God.
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You mean like Cherry 2000? So we're like, God's RealDoll?
Damn, that is freaky. I don't even want to think about the implications of that.
 
I guess it's this? I feel it in my bones that I am who I am supposed to be. I know it to be so in the same manner you claim to know god's will. I know I am here to help facilitate the transition of my mind to a higher state of knowing. I know I am on a successful journey toward that end, and that the journey likely ends at death, but certain hypothesis allow for continuation of some sort.

Given that - I know (in the same manner which you claim to know god's will, his design) that my design is not to love god, but to love life. How can you explain me to you? I do not fit in god's plan I suppose. I say that the fact that I exist nullifies your assertion that god's plan is to love god.

You think me malfunctioning? I'm a sinner. That really pisses me off. I feel like getting all jerry springer on that ass. I assure you, I'm functioning properly. Thanks for your concern. Now explain to me: If I am functioning properly - that is, according to my design, and I do not love god... where does that leave your argument?
 
Listen, I posted with the hope that you would be at least as open-minded as I'm trying to be.

Of course you are who you are supposed to be. Under my hypothesis/belief, God created you as you are, from birth to death. We both believe in life after death, that this life has intrinsic meaning. Our reasons and evidence for this belief are personal, but we have both taken a "leap of faith" in everybody else's eyes.

We differ in that I am not convinced I can turn out much better than millennia of homo sapiens who were more talented and better equipped for selftranscendence. I believe that I am intrinsically human, what you see is what you get, and that I am unaware of any special powers or abilities I might have or be able to attain. I have been practising martial arts for some time, and am familiar with the use of Qi and breathing-techniques, but I still live and breathe as normally as the day I was born. Everything I have ever achieved required nothing more specialised than hard work, and everything I have gained in life I have other people to thank for. I believe that I am part of life that God created to be normal, and am aware that ironically I am abnormal for holding that belief. I can gain nothing in this life that will benefit me in the next, and it is also my belief that the same God who has given me this is giving me the next. I didn't do anything to earn this life, and can do nothing to earn the next. Therefore my life is dedicated to Him, even while I am living in this physical body with its apparent limitations and faults.

We both believe in something we cannot see. What is seen, decays and dies, but what is unseen is not bound to body and death. I am more of a sinner than you, because i actually abide by the laws that make me a sinner. I am the one who is not functioning properly, because I have given up authority over my life, yet assumed responsibility for it. Loving God means making an effort to live the way he wants me to. And He has equipped me with everything I need in order to do that. Actually, I am finding out more and more of myself through Him, and more and more about Him through myself. That is enough validation for me, sufficient confirmation for my design and existence.

You might very well be on a higher state of consciousness than I am. My life does not depend on my ultimate position in the hierarchy of evolution. But teach me. Tell me how you love life, whether I am supposed to let go of it or dig deeper into it, and how my love for you or anybody else can be enhanced by it?
 
I dont need a God in order to love life. In fact, I dont believe in any sort of after life, heaven, ect...... Therefore, life to me is very valuable. Religion is a way of controling society, rendering the consiquences of Hell if one does not act accordingly. When pondering the question of our existance, theists would say, "God wanted it that way", and just leave it at that, no furthure investigation. That is limiting one's ability to think, and reason. I have never felt God, in the many times I have attended church. I looked at everyone who was weeping, and praying and realized how pathetic it is, to pray to an invisible being, that no one has ever seen or heard. A being, that was created by man, to control the population, and explain the questions that could not be answered due to lack of technoligy at that time. I have morals, I dont need to give credit to God for them either. I know that I am free to do as I wish, and live a productive and happy life, as long as Im not hurting anything or anyone. I dont need a Sheppard, I am not a lamb. Stop being a lamb, and just let go, break free of this ancient tool of control. And live your life without the worry of sinning in an jealous God's eyes.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Yes because even if we have free will we are the direct result of his design.

If I design an intelligent robot that goes on a killing spree then who is responsible the robot or my design?

Note that this is different from the gun scenario where some are trying to hold gun manufacturers responsible for killings using their guns. Here there are two intelligences involved, the manufacturer and the person pulling the trigger, and they are independent and unconnected. However, if the gun were to up and kill someone on its own then clearly that would be a result of a faulty design.

Since our use of free will results in various degrees of chaos and evil then on the surface it would appear that we are responsible. However, the level of our intelligence, the design of our free will, our psychological tendencies to do harm, and the limits and capabilities of these faculties are the direct design of our creator.

If such a god is as perfect as has been claimed then it would be possible for him to design something that was perfect and incapable of doing evil.

The only conclusion we can draw, given his omnipotence and therefore ability to design something perfect, is that he deliberately chose to design us with all these imperfections knowing full well how we would behave. He is therefore directly responsible for any evil that results from allowing humans to live according to their free will that he designed.
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Cris, and all atheists.....If there is anything that I wish you would obtain, it wont be millions of dollars or anything, but I hope one day you will obtain "COMMON SENSE".....That will be my dream for you guys.....

Your BELIEF states that an atom "LUCKILY" became dinosaurs.....I ask "How is this possible"? then you give reasons and excuses, IN WHICH YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE AND CONSIDER YOUR REASONING. Your reasoning is that it took millions of years of lightning strikes and earthquakes and tornadoes, then CHING CHING! A CELL APPREARED BY LUCK! (Mind if you can explain your BELIEF AGAIN?).....
THATS FINE, BUT WHY DONT YOU PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH AND CONSIDER OUR REASONING TOO...If I say "an atom became dinosaurs!" then you would say "Your jumping into conclusion, from point a to point z, that is not what really happened"...So you dont like what I say? In that case, practice what you preach and dont jump into conclusions either and say "GOD CREATED EVIL!!!" without giving us the chance to explain thats not what really happened....

God is an artist, he decided he wants to create an independent creatures (are you telling him what to do?), independent of making its own decision, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT IT IS CAPABLE OF GOOD AND EVIL, NOT JUST EVIL, BUT GOOD AS WELL....
WITH THE WHOLE ANALOGY, YOUR MAKING IT SOUND LIKE GOD ONLY PUT A GUN IN FRONT OF YOU, WHEN THE TRUTH IS IS THAT HE ALSO PUT A FOOD IN FRONT OF YOU, GUN GRINDERS, PENCILS, JOBS, A WIFE, AND MANY OTHER THINGS, YOU MAKE THE DECISION, AND IF YOU CHOSE TO PICK THE GUN INSTEAD OF THE BREAD NEXT TO IT, THEN WHY ARE YOU BLAIMING GOD? BECAUSE HE GAVE YOU DECISIONS? BUT WHO TOOK CONTROL OF THE DECISIONS? YOU DID.........SO PLEASE, I BEG THEE, TRY, I MEAN JUST TRY TO LOOK FOR "COMMON SENSE", ONE DAY YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY FIND IT.....:)
 
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whatsupyall,

Your BELIEF states that an atom "LUCKILY" became dinosaurs.....I ask "How is this possible"? then you give reasons and excuses, IN WHICH YOU EXPECT US TO BELIEVE AND CONSIDER YOUR REASONING. Your reasoning is that it took millions of years of lightning strikes and earthquakes and tornadoes, then CHING CHING! A CELL APPREARED BY LUCK!

If science is true, and everything in this universe, including life, got here by natural means("luck" or "randomness" are not accurate descriptions of the process), then how would you EXPECT somebody to explain the intricite, mind-numbing, number-crunching phenonmenom to you? The fact is that we don't exactly know the mathematical "bluprint" of every single process in this world. Science works by gathering evidence and building upon it to find the truth. This is why we know what we know now. This is why you are able to use microwave ovens and surf the web(what has religion made you lately). So while science starts at the low levels of exploration, evidence-gathering, etc... and works it's way UP to the "truth", religion starts at the "truth", and then gathers some supporting evidence to give it some shed of believability. Therefore it is easy to see why religion has all the "answers" and science does not. It is also easy to see why science has all the inventions and practicle applications that you depend on every day. Some say that science is only working it's way up to where religion is already waiting. That's just religious propaganda. The fact is, when science figures out how to get us off this planet and colonize others, you guys will still be waiting here on earth, confident as ever that you have already found the truth. And then the huge astroid will hit your dumb asses and you will be no more. Meanwhile we'll be on our way to finding the REAL truth instead of the delusional one that has brainwashed you all your life.
 
whatsup,

Your BELIEF states that an atom "LUCKILY" became dinosaurs
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No it isn’t.

Your reasoning is that it took millions of years of lightning strikes and earthquakes and tornadoes, then CHING CHING! A CELL APPREARED BY LUCK!
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Luck is a term relating to superstition. It is inappropriate here. Perhaps you are confusing the concept of mutation and thinking it means luck. Mutations can occur for many reasons and have many causes, but mutations are only one factor that within evolutionary biology.

(Mind if you can explain your BELIEF AGAIN?).....
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Before we can reach that stage you should at least absorb some of the basics of evolutionary biology since this will assist you when you progress to abiogenesis which is really what you are asking.

Read this first - An Introduction to Evolutionary Biology.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

The article includes a history of life on Earth; it is near the end. It describes the latest considerations on how early RNA and early cells arose.

However, evolutionary biology is not the appropriate topic concerning the origin of life. This is a mistake you continue to make. The current theory on how life began on earth is known as abiogenesis. Here is a discussion on the issues.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/

If this doesn’t help your understanding then feel free to ask your questions here and I am sure many of us will do our best to point you in an appropriate direction.

God is an artist, he decided he wants to create an independent creatures (are you telling him what to do?),
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No, just asking why he would make the alleged decisions you claim he made.

…independent of making its own decision, knowing full well that it is capable of good and evil, not just evil, but good as well....
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That is my point. Why did he make that choice? Note that you are supporting my argument – it was God’s CHOICE that we exist with the ability of good and evil. But included in the design is the proclivity for some to choose evil instead of good and in others it would be the reverse. In other words he designed some to do good and others to do evil.

If everyone had been designed with an identical specification and with an equal ability of free will then everyone would either choose good or everyone would choose evil, there could never be a mixture.

The fact that some do good while others do evil is because they were designed differently with different tendencies. The results are a direct result of God’s design and hence he is directly responsible for the actions carried out by his products.

your making it sound like god only put a gun in front of you, when the truth is is that he also put a food in front of you, gun grinders, pencils, jobs, a wife, and many other things, you make the decision, and if you chose to pick the gun instead of the bread next to it, then why are you blaiming god? because he gave you decisions? but who took control of the decisions? you did.........
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Yes but he would have designed our psychological tendencies to either choose one or the other, our choices are because that was the way he designed us.

Had he so chosen, because he is omnipotent and can do anything, he could have designed us with better abilities to understand the repercussions of doing evil instead of good. This would have been a superior design. If he designed us then clearly we are inferior to that design, and this implies that God has created something imperfect.

We cannot be held responsible for God’s inferior design of us, the evil we do cannot be our fault but a direct result of God’s substandard design abilities.
 
i can't help myself, it's a new religion...

this is great thread. i believe that we have free will. i believe that god (and you can define god any way you like; i submit that you can define god as nothing if you're atheist) is everywhere at all times. i believe that the physical laws of the universe are consistant and that there are consequences for every action.

rather than look to an authority figure or religion to explain things to me; i've been looking inward. i believe that we all have an inner voice that comes directly from god. we all know what's right; but we all have freedom of choice. we have the choice of acting through love or fear. we have the choice of accepting or denying the consequences of our own actions. i like to think that i can teach an older person or learn from a child. the trick is to be open and honest with yourself.

i'm currently reading a couple of books that really speak to this:

"the gospel according to jesus: a new translation and guide to his essential teachings for believers and unbelievers" by stephen mitchell. it attempts to remove the extraneous bits that he believes have been inserted by various evangelists and dogmatics for their own reasons. so many of the things that i was taught from the bible as a youngster seemed contradictory to me; and now i know why.

"conversations with god: an uncommon dialogue" by neale donald walsch. this guy sat down and wrote out questions to god in his frustration and found the answers coming to him through his own pen! sure, it sounds weird; but the answers to his questions seem so obvious and wise that the fact that they are heretical doesn't matter in the slightest.
 
You guys, you really should just ignore whatsup. You're only encouraging him. Things that go into his brain (such as the posts you write in response to him) are horribly skewed through the act of entering his brain. He'll just process it through some horribly infected perspective and regurgitate some christianesque crap. You shouldn't waste your time. :)
 
wesmorris
I heartily second that about that poster. (See, I won't even write his name :D )

Religion is a way of controling society
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Kenresus,

I don't usually like to intellectualize or talk about spirituality, so I won't. So I will simply offer up my (round-about) definition of religion. Yes, religion is a way of controlling society and the individuals in it, but a spiritual union, whether with a person or an entity, whether in the context of community or as an individual is, from my experience, different than the means by which religious people control others. I think that belief in any being I cannot sense with my physical body cannot be quantified/defined, and in that way religion falls short of helping me to express my spirituality. But, whether it is one of my failings or not, some of the more emotional practices I find in religion bring me to that higher plane of consciousness which my former sole dependence on thought could not do.

Religion is not solely intellectual. It may be used on that level for most of a particular religion's adherents, but there must be some people who adhere to a particular religion who are deeply spiritual, who strive to find that balance between the intellectual and the spiritual. Without those people, religions as human institutions would be simply about mind control. But the fact that those people exist, who believe and practice the best things that their religion teaches--unconditional love of self and others, belief in a being which is greater and deeper than everything we see around us--is what somehow almost redeems religion for me (if it even can be redeemed from the mire I see it in).
 
Should we hold that god responsible for all wrongs in the universe? Or should we believe that the universe, all rights and wrongs, is all up to those within it, as we have free will? That for any god to be responsible, we could not have free will?



** What you consider wrongs is just Satan's delicacies but you don't have to taste them.

:D
 
EvilinaAnville,

Yes, I see your point about unconditional love of self and others. But, as I stated before, one does not need religion or a God to do so. It is a natural human emotion. It is not becosue of God, that we love ourselve's and each other. If so, then it is becouse of God that we hate each other also. Religion is stateing the obvious when it says we are supposed to love each other. There is no credit due to a God for love. Dont you think athietst LOVE people, of course we do. I love myself a lot. And some other people to. I have heard this argument before: "we love each other, therefore God exits." Religion uses the obvious as "evidence" and "justification".

You mentioned sprirituality several times. How do you define sprirtuality? What is a spirit? Where is YOUR spirit? I think your confusing emotions with spirituality. Here is the dictionary definition: a being that is not of this world, as a ghost, an angel, fairy, ect..... Are you not of this world? Gost, angel or fairy?

Why would people practice ONLY the best things their religion teaches, instead of all of it? What would be the point of practicing it at all, if not all of it? In that case, are they true believers, or just fair weather believers? Is that why certain parts of the bible are not preached in service? It seems as if the bad parts are being hidden, so people wont have an idea of what they are truly worshiping. It sounds like religion has been altered to fit the needs of the modern world, so it can survive.
 
I keep seeing this "free will" phrase, I've never seen any hint of its existance in the bible (KJ or greatly misinterputed international). Also I remeber the lord saying he created both the good and the evil, and also don't forget Exodus 10:1 (KJ), to name one of many such scriptures, where god has straightly told us we don't have free will, but are ordained to our purpose be it good or evil. If you ever find it in your heart to seek the lord, do not forsake it, because it could be the only chance you have of turning from your hatred of him. Do not make the assumption that all are beloved of god for this is not true, for it is written "jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom 9:13 but read further), it has been said in several other ways in different scriptures.

I know these things may be hard to understand seeing you have little now to help you understand them. I know you may say it as injust, but by what judgement do you judge the lord, is not he the justifier? Also if god had not allowed us to sin, could you have been? Did you decide that you should be? If you have trouble with this, please send me a private message or something (e-mail currently offline) and I'll do my best to help.
 
Why, thankyou Binary. This goes back to my 'controling tool.' It wasn't God that said we dont have free will, as you pointed that out in the bible. It was the authors of the bible, man, that said we dont have free will. Man wrote the bible. Man made the tool to control society, tricking them into beilieving that an almighty being said those words.



Ordainded to do word of God, wich was writen by man. Several men, at different times. Your argument may be that God told them to write these "rules" if you will. In turn they told society that "God said this, there fore you shall live by it, or face his wrath." We must keep in mind that drugs were commonly used in those days by all levels of society.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Listen, I posted with the hope that you would be at least as open-minded as I'm trying to be.
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Sad that you didn't notice that I was being that, yeah. I'm using my big brain to find holes in your argument. You are then supposed to use your big brain to poke holes in my argument. If both of our brains are truly big, we'll actually make a little progress... maybe both learn a little something.
Originally posted by Jenyar

Of course you are who you are supposed to be. Under my hypothesis/belief, God created you as you are, from birth to death. We both believe in life after death, that this life has intrinsic meaning. Our reasons and evidence for this belief are personal, but we have both taken a "leap of faith" in everybody else's eyes.
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YOU SAID: God's plan is for us to love HIM. I say "I don't love god" therefore I'm not part of his plan. God's plan should be perfect right, so I say, I'm following my design, therefore god's plan is faulty, or the argument about him is.

I don't believe in anything. I hope some things are true. I have faith in some things, but my faith is not absolute. I react to my envirnment as new evidence is presented.
 
Maybe this will help. Think of simulation in which, you set the variables (or laws), and you create the enviroment, and you build the AI. Did you not also create everything that would ever be in it, or dictate all the actions the AI would ever make, and would not user input be the only thing that could change it?
 
Free will could be an illusion that has arisen out of our inability to know our own limits. It's as if we presume the earth is flat because we can't see past the horizon. You are living on a spiritual flat earth. If you are able to love all of humanity past present and future, instead of God, you are truly a much better person than I am.
 
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