Just a question about god

Originally posted by Adam
I'll try to make my initial question clearer...

Assume for the sake of discussion that a single being created everything.

Now, here we are in the universe, living, doing our thing. We want to believe we have free will, correct? (I hope we all do.)

Any interference in the universe whatsoever from that god would mean some factor or factors of this universe are out of our hands, or out of the hands of what we know as natural to the universe, and in the guidence of some being. That would be a limit on our freedom.

Likewise, if we knew without doubt that this god existed, if we had evidence, would that not give us the idea that there is some other who is responsible for things, perhaps for our thoughts, words, and actions? Would that not also be an infringement upon our free will?

My thought when I began this thread was "Only in a universe without a creator/controller can free will exist". Thus, if we accept that a creator/god exists, we can either: assume we do not have free will; or assume that we have free will, in which case this creator/god is 100% apart from and outside our universe and will never have anything at all to do with any of us.

You are very right in the sense that God cannot take away our freewill 100%..But you do have a question....What about divine intervention? Shouldnt that be a violation of our freewill as well? No...Definitely not, this is common sense.

When People asked Jesus to heal them, Jesus always end with the words "YOUR FAITH HAS HEALED YOU". Even some of them were healed without asking Jesus to do so, just because of their faith "LIKE THE WOMAN WHO WAS BLEEDING FOR MANY YEARS but was healed when touching the cloak of Jesus"....Jesus didnt say "My Power has healed you", but he said "YOUR Faith has healed you".........

In the book of Genesis, it says "Thus the heavens and the earth and all its array are completed"...Everything necessary in our survival has been completed from the beggining. We are capable of emotions and judgment, and FAITH as well, the key to the heart of God...(SDont be caught up in a literal sense of the genesis, where God abandoned the earth, and all the creation never reproduce, :D...It just means that everything necessary, the laws of nature, the design of the universe, etc. are all completed, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN THAT GOD WILL NOT CREATE ANYTHING ANYMORE....)

A Divine intervention takes place because YOU MAKE IT TAKE PLACE...You asked for it.......You are using your freewill, using your faith, and that faith caused you healing, whether you are a christian or not, atheists or theists, LIKWE JESUS SAID "YOUR FAITH WILL HEAL YOU"....YOU MAY LABEL THIS OCCURENCE AS "PLACEBO" OR "MIRACLE" OR "GIANT PURPLE SQUID MONKEY" OR "GLUTAMATE MONOSODIUM OXIDE HYDRO CHEMICAL BRAIN IMPULSE" I DONT CARE HOW YOU LABEL IT, CALL IT "WACKO JACKO CHEMICAL" IF YOU WANT....BUT THE FACT HERE IS JESUS SAID YOUR FAITH WILL HEAL YOU REGARDLESS OF BELIEF........"IF YOU DONOT BELIEVE I AM THE SON OF GOD, THEN BELIEVE WHAT I DO"- JESUS CHRIST....IN OTHER WORDS "IF YOU DONT WANT TO BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD, THEN ATLEAST BELIEVE WHAT JESUS DO, BE MORALLY GOOD, BE GENEROUS, LOVING, MERCIFULL, KIND, ETC...AND AT THE END YOU WILL BE REWARDED DESPITE OF YOUR RACE, NATIONALITY, OR RELIGION........"

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"If you have a faith as small as a mustard seed, you can tell a mountain to move from here to there, and it will move.."- Jesus Christ....

This indeed is true..The power of the mind goes as far as to bend spoons just with a slight touch of fingers..Some can swallow razor sharp steel, alloys and metals and not get harmed, some can walk on fire for over 2 minutes and not get burned (unlike the pathetic skeptics who can only try it for few seconds). All this have been demonstrated. They even theorized that the power of the mind goes as far as to healing it self of incurable cancers (a theory which cannot be proven..)...

THE POINT HERE IS THAT JESUS WORDS ARE TRUE, THAT THERE IS POWER IN FAITH, SKEPTICS (JAMES RANDI) OR ATHEISTS SHOULD RECOGNIZE THIS FACT (UNLESS IF YOUR A RETARD).......
 
Originally posted by whatsupyall
This indeed is true..The power of the mind goes as far as to bend spoons just with a slight touch of fingers..blabla...some can walk on fire for over 2 minutes and not get burned

i suggest that the faithful try to walk on a real fire...not some hot coals...

i mean a blazing white fire....see how far the power of the mind really goes....how powerful faith really is...
 
It's not faith that's powerful, it's God. Faith doesn't replace God, it gives God credit for what He does. When Jesus said their faith had healed them, he simply put a name to what they had already done: recognise God. Has anybody been able to move mountains by faith in the history of the world? There aren't even legends about that - Jesus didn't do it, nor did he use faith to straighten nails while working as a carpenter. What is important is that we recognise God as the author of our humanity, and live it under normal physical everyday conditions.

We shouldn't deny or degrade our humanity in favour of spirituality. God made us human - it is simply our disobedience to God and our self-righteousness that cause us misery. God is saddened by what we do. God did not create us to sadden Him. The sin of Adam and Eve isn't something that just happened once and now we're stuck with it - it's still happening. We are still not resisting temptation. We have desensitized ourselves towards other people and towards God, and the destruction is escalating.

We have 100% free will, yes - but we are not free. Freedom is an illusion unless it is found in God. Any other freedom is a lie which we choose to believe because we simply create the conditions under which the lie becomes truth. We are not free because we are not free from ourselves. Why is there hate and war and destruction? Because we are not alone!

Here's a hypothetical question: is everybody capable of love? Do we become more capable of love as we advance technologically or mentally? Do everybody exercise their capability of loving? Even five year olds in a perfect loving environment can be lured by strangers into their cars and taken away. Who do you blame? The five year old, the parents, or the stranger?

You can reserve judgement until death, when our physical bodies fall away and we cannot decide anymore as reality imposes itself on us unequivocably - or we can decide now what is right and belong to freedom even while we are bound to the world.
 
Originally posted by Adam
I'll try to make my initial question clearer...

Assume for the sake of discussion that a single being created everything.

Now, here we are inthe universe, living, doing our thing. We want to believe we have free will, correct? (I hope we all do.)

Any interference in the universe whatsoever from that god would mean some factor or factors of this universe are out of our hands, or out of the hands of what we know as natural to the universe, and in the guidence of some being. That would be a limit on our freedom.

Likewise, if we knew without doubt that this god existed, if we had evidence, would that not give us the idea that there is some other who is responsible for things, perhaps for our thoughts, words, and actions? Would that not also be an infringement upon our free will?

My thought when I began this thread was "Only in a universe without a creator/controller can free will exist". Thus, if we accept that a creator/god exists, we can either: assume we do not have free will; or assume that we have free will, in which case this creator/god is 100% apart from and outside our universe and will never have anything at all to do with any of us.

I think that's an interesting point. I would add though, that it seems to me that it is completely invalid because if a being were powerfull enough to create the universe, it is likely that attempt at applying logic or reasoning to the scenario would be completely pointless. For instance, that being would have the capacity for will to begin with and could thusly choose to interact with the universe on a whim. Further and more disturbing, couldn't such a being simply make both scenarios true simultaneously?

Of course one could entertain the thought that (and maybe this is where you were going) like, someone like a human created the universe in a petri dish... and you're asking are we programmed or independent. Could be a bit of both I spoze. Hard to say eh? Is that the nature/nuture argument?
 
Originally posted by wesmorris
Of course one could entertain the thought that (and maybe this is where you were going) like, someone like a human created the universe in a petri dish... and you're asking are we programmed or independent. Could be a bit of both I spoze. Hard to say eh? Is that the nature/nuture argument?

no, i don't think that this is what he is saying...

he demonstrated that the concept of free will and a god do not go together according to logic.

he is not trying to assess if humans are governed by instincts or culture
 
Originally posted by kidsun
the purpose of a spiritual insight or understanding is not to "convince" people. the purpose is to utilize it in your own life. you don't have to label, classify, or observe every aspect of it to see, once you've experienced it, how it can benefit you.
I suppose you have a point.... but I'm thinking of it clinically, not personally. I'm saying for any boolean question there are always three answers, the third being the choice of not choosing. To me that implies the the answer to "is there a god because of that experience I had?" is inherently (up to this point) that third choice, or you are willing to abandon reason. Further, I was making the point that at some point the subjective experience will be relatable. Given that, the value of someone's subjective experience regarding "is there a god" will be transmissable and thusly presentable as "objective" evidence towards the overall argument. Of course I realize that the individual must still weigh the evidence of the objective argument, but at least at that point there is some solid evidence to work with. As of now, not.
Originally posted by kidsun

i can tell you about my own experiences but that is not the same as you experiencing it for yourself. there are no "conclusions" to jump to, other than the realization from the experience that there is a spiritual dimension (or whatever you'd prefer to label it). i won't go further in explaining it because it is not something i can "convince" you to believe. i can only say that i'm tremendously happier since discovering this in my own life. and that it's not at all hard to believe once you've experienced it.
Well, I'd say it seems obvious to most humans, due to the complexity of the brain, that there is a spiritual side of life. I think the intelligent mind at some point says "is that an illusion?" and again, due to the nature of knowledge per my description above... the only "correct" answer is "I don't know for sure". Then one is entitled to whatever crazy theory one want, all I'm saying is that in a rational discussion it is important to realize that "I don't know for sure" is about as much as anyone can say about it and be 100% certain they are correct. It's the cosmic joke.
Originally posted by kidsun

people seem to get bogged down with semantics and old ways of religiously labeling spirituality. to understand spirit, most of us need to transcend these old lines of thinking. that is not to say that one can't continue to practice a religion, but that the two (spirit and religion) are not the same thing.
Hmm.. okay then. I still think you have to abandon reason to explore that, and I'm not sure if it's "transcendance" or "digression". That is just my subjective stance of course.
Originally posted by kidsun

this holds true for science as well. we don't have to empirically prove something in order to know it and to utilize it in our lives.
Yes, but it certainly contributes to advancing debates regarding the issue in question eh? Isn't that why we bother? So we can add that knowledge to the integrated "objective" view of the universe?
Originally posted by kidsun

a scientific measurement of spirit is not required for either an individual or all of "humanity" to transcend (evolve).
I disagree, but you might be right about that. I personally think that technology wins and eventually allows "spiritual" questions to be answered.
Originally posted by kidsun

understanding it on an individual level is enough to make a difference in the collective. if each individual is, for example, non-violent, then the collective will be non-violent as well, won't it?

That is a cool way to look at it but again I disagree because I believe that's slightly too simplistic. I would offer that understanding on that level is communicated to the masses through authority figures. All to often those authority figures are religious in nature. In my opinion, science authorities are superior for objectivity is a scientific need.... and well, I won't get into the motivations of religious authorities but objectivity doesn't seem important them (to me). Sure, science authorities are human and they can lie, but eventually the lies or mistakes are caught and the objective picture gains strenght.

This is basically the problem with subjective assertion, there is no way to separate it from ego regarding any attempt to communicate it to the other humans. I can say "I am the way, the light". Do you believe me? I am the son of god. Do you believe me?

It is interesting to note that I believe conversations such as these are the result of subjective spiritual endeavors as you've stated. I would surmise given that fact, that trancendance (on a species level) can only be obtained through objectivity, for that is what binds us, regardless of what you think about spirituality. Further, it is entirely possible that spirituality is an imaginary aspect of ego.
 
Originally posted by kidsun
i didn't realize you were simply arguing over christian dogma...
I was, but there is no reason to labor exclusively under the Christian paradigm.

i do disagree about what you believe is "quite obvious." humanity is not a smallminded 5 year old child
While I agree that individuals are capable of rational behavior, it’s somewhat debatable when we speak of humanity in general. Just take a look at history and well as the current global political scene. It seems to me that en masse we are still behaving like spoiled, agressive, and somewhat retarded children.

we are capable of modeling after jesus if we want to.
If you’re not confined to the Christian paradigm; why Jesus, in particular? Why not Buddha, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Einstein, or Osiris? Why not examine the history and myths of these individuals and pick what is best in each? Why not examine the questions philosophically; do we really need personified examples at all?

we have everything we need to solve all of our problems. we certianly can handle these "gasoline and matches" situations properly. we know what the consequences are. we are capable of making wise choices. we just choose not to.
I agree that, as individuals, we have the capacity. What we need are new social models that bring this capacity into our group dynamics. As the scientific model has done for our acquisition of knowledge we need a systematic social method that is similarly reliable. Democracy is a start but its several thousand years old. One would think we could develop something better in that time.

~Raithere
 
thank you, wesmorris, for really hearing what i've tried to communicate. i understand all of your points and have no immediate disagreement to share. your perspective is one with which many would align, and one that i would have stated myself few years ago. (you state it quite well, i might add.)

for now i will just say that, while it appears that one cannot "know" something for sure without proof, that is really only true when you are seeking outside yourself for evidence. when you experience something internally, you know it is true.
you may not know what to label it, but you know it is true nonetheless.

like when i have a headache, for example. there may be no test to validate that fact, but i can tell you that it is true because i am experiencing it. you can choose to believe me, or you can say that i don't have any proof so there is no way to know for sure if it is an "illusion" or if i am really experiencing what i say i am. you could also believe that i am lying, or that what i perceive as a headache really is something else entirely. but all of that really doesn't matter because it is me who feels it, and me who is affected by it, and whether it is based in reason or not, whether i can prove it or not, it is still very much real to me.

what you can do is observe how this "headache" is affecting me. i may be tired, i may be grimacing, i may be irritable, i may be weepy, i may be sensitive to light, and so on. (on a collective scale, if everyone experienced a headache, then everyone would behave as if they have a headache.)

similarly with spiritual experiences, i cannot prove to you the source or nature of this experience, but you can see (if you knew me, that is) how it has profoundly affected me.

how do i label this headache? sinus? migraine? psychosomatic? how do i label this spiritual experience? communion with god? being saved? being born again? discovering a collective unconscious? plugging into my higher self? differentiation of the freudian "ego?" tapping into alien intelligence? delusional insanity?

admittedly, the analogy here is limited, because in the case of physiological pain, the source (origin) reflected by it's label, is more important than in the case of a positive spiritual experience. to rid myself of the pain, i must try to figure out what is causing it. to benefit from a spiritual insight or connection, however, this is not the case. i don't know what to label it, and i can't say for sure where it comes from, but (contrary to many religious perspectives) in my experience, that is not required to benefit from it. i know all i need to know.

your route to understanding and connecting with spirit is a long one... when you are seeking for evidence outside of yourself before you will allow yourself to believe it is possible, it may take you a very long while to reach your destination.

i love when you say "abandon reason" ... that is precisely what we need to do. we have come to overvalue "reason" at the expense of subjective, intuitive knowledge. while reason and science can aid us in debating points, and lead us to some concrete understandings and classifications of the universe, it is the subjective, intuitive knowledge that connects us with things of a spiritual nature.

knowledge gained through reason + knowledge gained though subjective experience = wisdom

thank you for engaging me in a civil, thought provoking dialogue. (it's amazing to me that i can write so much so quickly on the subject!) i look forward to more.... but for now i have "promises to keep, and miles to go before i sleep, and miles to go before i sleep."
 
hello raithere,
i agree with everything you have stated. i agree that people are making foolish choices. and i do not limit myself to the study of jesus alone. like abraham maslow, i study all the examples of people who have lived up to what i consider to be the greatest of human potential.

you ask," do we really need personified examples at all?"

and you provide your own answer," What we need are new social models..." our global and national systems will reflect the level at which we individually choose to follow those social models.

we have models who have shown us all that we can be. we have to make a conscious choice to model our own lives after them. i believe we are all capable of that.
 
Originally posted by kidsun
thank you, wesmorris, for really hearing what i've tried to communicate. i understand all of your points and have no immediate disagreement to share. your perspective is one with which many would align, and one that i would have stated myself few years ago. (you state it quite well, i might add.)
you are quite welcome and I thank you for your kind words as well. I will keep this response somewhat brief, and I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, it's just that I think the following is the key point (please inform me if that assumption is not correct):
Originally posted by kidsun

i love when you say "abandon reason" ... that is precisely what we need to do. we have come to overvalue "reason" at the expense of subjective, intuitive knowledge. while reason and science can aid us in debating points, and lead us to some concrete understandings and classifications of the universe, it is the subjective, intuitive knowledge that connects us with things of a spiritual nature.
It seem to me that you are getting at expectation influencing the experiment. In other words, if you expect that you don't have ESP (maybe a poor choice for an example) then there is definately no way you'll have ESP regardless of the possibility. I agree with you there but I don't think that avoiding subjective judgement of that.. well I should rephrase. What I think is that yes, subjectively I may have to sacrifice potential gifts, but that is for the greater knowledge of the species, to the cause of elevating the species.

I think you're getting at this: The aspect of "spirituality" that you speak of cannot be if you do not embrace it fully, thusly you cannot doubt it or it is inneffective subjectively. On this point, I will not attempt to refute you. I agree there is an aspect of "spirituality" that exists within the mind that takes faith in it to function. My faith however, is in reason (which is why I cannot abandon it, and mind you, I can take reason quite a ways into spirituality, but that is a different thread). In my opinion, that is the faith that most quickly advances the species. While I concurr that there are aspects of the mind that are untapped - that we may have even lost in this "age of reason", spirituality or all kinds of other possibilities, I am free to entertain any kind of retarded theories about the subtlties of the mind that I wish, without comprimising the long term goal of advancement of the species. Further, I think we can gain an understanding of our spiritual sides THROUGH this "age of reason". It's probably just that at this point "reason" is basically in its infancy. I have faith that the answers will come from unyeilding application of exploration through thought and experiment and stuff like that: "reason". It will expand to where reason and spirituality are one.
Originally posted by kidsun

knowledge gained through reason + knowledge gained though subjective experience = wisdom
agreed 100%. just be sure to remember that you've just made wisdom subjective.. it IS, but that means it doesn't necessarily have any bearing objectively (to others).
Originally posted by kidsun

thank you for engaging me in a civil, thought provoking dialogue. (it's amazing to me that i can write so much so quickly on the subject!) i look forward to more.... but for now i have "promises to keep, and miles to go before i sleep, and miles to go before i sleep."

yeah man. I gotta go to lunch. I have enjoyed your posts as well though and it has definately been thought provoking. thanks for being a cool human. They're my favorite kind. :)
 
This really IS the short form. I swear ....

I haven't the time this morning for my usual deposit of horsepucky, so it's well enough to limit myself to a couple of specific points which will, hopefully, be understood in terms of their vitality to the topic:

- I think people are examining the question from too personal a perspective. That is not to say that the posts are without insight, intelligence, or progressive thought, but I submit as part of my constant litany, Huxley's "Martian eye": being depressed about the number of people on the face of the Earth who were left to collect the excrement of animals, Huxley realized that seen through a "Martian eye"--that is, a perspective removed from the system examined--the situation was not nearly so depressing. It may be depressing to think of the millions of people to whom the passing of an unconstipated elephant is a godsend, but if we look at humanity from without, it's rather a cheery thought that we've figured out something to do with all this shite.

- Part of this not only involves a removal from the space of the system examined, but also a removal from the time of the system examined. Anyone more familiar with quantum mechanics and mathematics than I should have a better idea of what I'm talking about, but part of abstract mathematics examines probability waveforms and other somewhat surreal concepts. The point being is that we gain from this some perspective on potential.

- Thus we naturally look to the future as something which has not occurred. What becomes today when tomorrow arrives? Is today any less real come tomorrow? When that future becomes the present, we see which potential outcome of the system examined is real. Despite the potential outcomes, the actual result could be no other way.

- We may feel that we have free will, and a side consideration is the possibility that there exist too many factors affecting the determinist nature of the Universe for the human brain to calculate. However, in terms of free will, when we look at what has just occurred, can it be said to be possible that it occurred any other way? Things occur the way they do because that is the way they are. If another potential outcome was more persuasive according to the actual rules of the Universe, then that potential would have been the actual. "God does not play dice," says the sage. Another replies that it's a little like playing poker in a pitch-black room with cards with blank faces, an indeterminate number of players, and a dealer that smiles all the time. But evolution has led to humanity (or deer, or bears, or E. coli, ad nauseam) simply because, when all else is done, it is the only way things could go. If there had been another, better way, that way would be reality and not some theoretic would-be, could-be, should-have-been. From this perspective, the notion of free will not so much crumbles under the weight of protest, but evaporates having become largely, if not entirely, irrelevant.

To be more specific to the topic post (well, hopefully), God cannot be excused from any result occurring within a free-will Universe, because at that point our version of free will is not entirely free. Were it free, our choices would not be constrained by this filter we call "reality". (Why should I not flap my arms and fly? Teleport to Proxima Centauri? Dance with Andromeda?) It should be mentioned that a danger of "Tiassa's Universe", as such, is that everything generally leads to a form of nihilism, and free will in a designed Universe is no exception. (I have no handy tips to cope with that condition, other than, "Deal with it," and how useful is that?)

One might say that we are made in God's image because, according to the Universe, humanity could not have evolved any other way. Certes, with a different climatological history, or electrochemical foundation, humanity could have evolved differently. But those conditions did not occur, and are not real. We have ten fingers and toes, two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, and a brain that compels our mouths to be useless in order to make other compromises with nature. Without the intellectual level found in humans at least, the world is reduced to a certain degree of savagery. Truly, we accomplish our own savagery, but I say that Life (capitalization intentional) is a learning process. Do we learn from history? Should we learn from history? But that history occurred because it could not occur any other way. From there, to be more expedient, I might invoke the question of the quantification of a thought impulse: what are the natural (or physical) properties of thought? Voltage? Amperage? How closely can we observe the changes in blackbody output during different states of mind? In the end, all consciousness and thought (barring the existence of the soul) is nothing more than electrical phenomena. A star goes through phases according to its mass and density. This is in response to nature. At what level are the energy relations of human thought subject to natural law? All that we do, we do because we do. It's not a riddle. It's just irresponsible rhetoric.

There is no other possible reality than the one we have. All that occurs within this reality, from the biggest bang since the Big Bang down to children starved in a basement in New Jersey, all the way down to "Does this dress make me look fat?" comes about because it must. Not necessarily by the will of any being, but by the facts of circumstance. That I write these words is necessary. That police shoot someone for smoking pot or perhaps--in the case of Amadou Diallo, Mario Paz, Patrick (?) Dorismond, Esquivel Hernandez, and many others--for not smoking pot, is somehow necessary. Don't ask me why; if I knew, I would be God. But just because I can't figure out how to ascertain the whole of the question why does not mean I should not endeavor to discover that.

A friend who happens to be a psychologist asked me the other day about happiness. I told him that I would be happy if, even for just a second, I could understand what it is to be a human being. Even if it's the last thing I do.

I'll most likely never accomplish it. But I do know that I see farther if I step out of time just a little bit, and see things as necessities of the Universe, and not the fancies of ego--be it God's or ours.

(So much for the short form. And for coming back to the topic question. Something about the fancies of ego .... ;) )

I'll stop now ....

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
A friend who happens to be a psychologist asked me the other day about happiness. I told him that I would be happy if, even for just a second, I could understand what it is to be a human being. Even if it's the last thing I do.

I don't think there is any simple way I can tell you what a human is, or rather what man is. As much as I would like to, all I can tell you is that it is possible. I could write no more than what is written in the bible of man, and in no greater clarity. 1 corinthians 13-14 (Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
KJV). I want to make it clear that although I'm what you may call a thesis or christian,I am not as many of the others on this forum. Even though I do not see it as a bad start for one to have blind faith in god, I have found that it is usually the ones that need reason, and justification, or are only willing to trust in something they can interact with, seemingly are more receptive of the truth.
I do not wish to imply that I'm against the faith that some would place blindly in the word, but instead implore you that you seek understanding, that you might come to know the god in which you say you place your faith. For he is not the dead, and inactive god you would have him to be.
 
hello wesmorris,

agreed 100%. just be sure to remember that you've just made wisdom subjective.. it IS, but that means it doesn't necessarily have any bearing objectively (to others).

i have only a moment to respond ...
so much to digest, so little time!

yes you could say that my definition of "wisdom" makes it "subjective," but it's application (my use of it in the world) does have an objective bearing on others.

you certianly can find a path toward spirituality through reason.

and i'm certian you will.

-k
 
Adam – I’m going to take your question head-on. But first some analysis:

You ask two separate questions and then assert a causal link between them.
(Since it assumes a creator god, it is essentially a theological question and I will use standard theological terms.)
1. Does man have free will or not?
2. Is god transcendent (100% apart from and outside the universe) or immanent (Remaining within; inherent; indwelling; abiding; within the created universe and/or the mind of man

The nature of your question gives us four states to examine.
  • God is transcendent AND man has free will.
  • God is transcendent AND man does not have free will.
  • God is immanent AND man has free will.
  • God is immanent AND man does not have free will.
    [/list=a]

    Your underlying premise is that can free will only exist in a universe without a creator/controller. You define free will as having sole responsibility for thoughts, speech and actions, and that the existence of an immanent god infringes on free will. Your assertion is that given the existence of free will, then creator/god is transcendent and will never have anything at all to do with us. Essentially, you argue that ONLY states A and D can be true.

    Your argument fails on 2 grounds. First, the assertion that man has free will is problematic and second, the causal link between man’s will and god’s nature is problematic.

    The assertion that man has free will is problematic. Suppose I have two fish tanks – one tank holds a single, extremely talented fish that manages without explanation to create a second, wholly separate fish tank and populate it with fish. All the fish in the second tank are free to think, speak and act as they will - completely separated from the transcendent god-fish that cares not a wit about what happens in the tank he created. One fish in the created tank eats another fish. The eaten fish has just had his free will infringed upon in the most dramatic way – he has been struck dead. God fish, sitting in the other tank had nothing to do with it. This is an example of state B: God is transcendent AND man does not have free will. A man can loose his free will by coercion from other men (slavery, kidnapping, extortion, military action etc) or from himself by destroying his ability act willfully through substance abuse, or by accident through disease, or injury. None of these conditions have any dependency on a transcendent god. You have to show why is being struck dead by a fellow fish any different than being struck dead by Godfish

    The causal link between man’s will and god’s nature is problematic. Let’s say that Godfish had the ability to communicate in some unseen way with the fish he created. Let’s also say that the created fish can talk to each other. Let’s also assume that the created fish don’t coerce each other out of their free will. Godfish communicates with a single Prophetfish that feels compelled on the merit of that communication to preach his message to other fish, which decide to follow him. At the other end of the tank, JonesFish is preaching an idea he thought up called ‘fish individual metamorphosis’. He convinces a group of fish to follow him to a remote part of the tank and commit suicide by eating poisonous seaweed. Freewill is conserved. This is an example of state C: God is immanent AND man has free will. You have to show why Godfish’s impact on Prophetfish and his followers is an infringement of free will, but Jonesfish’s isn’t.

    I probably could have stated the argument much more succinctly, but I got carried away with the fish tank thing.
 
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Turdurkin,

You should change your nick to Godfish. hehe... I loved your post. It's always nice when good analysis is also entertaining... well done!

Wes
 
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