Just a question about god

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Adam

§Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥
Registered Senior Member
Just a question here. For the sake of discussion, let's assume a single ultimate god exists, one which created the universe and us, blah blah blah.

Should we hold that god responsible for all wrongs in the universe? Or should we believe that the universe, all rights and wrongs, is all up to those within it, as we have free will? That for any god to be responsible, we could not have free will?

In short: If we have free will at all, can we hold god responsible for anything? Or do we value that it stays out of our existence entirely?
 
Just a question here. For the sake of discussion, let's assume a single ultimate god exists, one which created the universe and us, blah blah blah.

K, I cn do tht.

Should we hold that god responsible for all wrongs in the universe? Or should we believe that the universe, all rights and wrongs, is all up to those within it, as we have free will? That for any god to be responsible, we could not have free will?

I thnk tht w. shld hld Gd rspnsbl fr all wrngs in th unvrs, bcuz if an omnptnt Gd does exst, h. knws wht wll hppen t all of u. alrdy, whch mns h. dtrmnd all of o. lvs befr th. evn hppned!

In short: If we have free will at all, can we hold god responsible for anything? Or do we value that it stays out of our existence entirely?

Evrythng w. do is hs. flt, "in shrt".

Nt: I hv decded tht I wll pst in ths new bndwdth-svng frmt. pls rply wth any objctns.
 
Shit, GB, please lay off the bandwidth saving format, unless you are on a modem/phone line or something.
 
Funny, all this time I thought that GB was a retard and he was just trying to save space.:D

Adam:
In short: If we have free will at all, can we hold god responsible for anything? Or do we value that it stays out of our existence entirely?
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We hold God responsible for our excistence. We blame everything else on ourselves. Why is there so much suffering? And hate? Because people hate, and people cause suffering. You should really read the Dali Lama's book entitled The Art of Happiness. Good book IMO.
 
No, I don't think the focus should be on who shoulders the blame. Reread that book or get another one.
 
good question

Adam, I dont force you to believe in what I say here but I am just going to state my belief.

There is an ultimate God who created the universe...science can't explain everything due to this. Even the Big Bang theory cannot point to the very beginning from which all things were created. It can only go as far back as 4 seconds in the very beginning (if my memory doesn't fail me). Also, Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle in the atomic structure...specifically the electron, I believe carries much weight in the entirety of science. His principle states that when you know the exact location and mass of an electron, you cannot determine its velocity and orbit. However, when you know its velocity and orbit, you cannot know its mass and location...or something like that. This is because of the alpha or gamma (whatver) rays which is instrumental in locating the electron. It is so strong to locate the electron but it will not enable you to define all its characteristics which I have just mentioned above. Given this Uncertainty principle, I believe that since science fails to fully know everything isn the microcosm, how much more in the macrocosm?

Going further, with your question regarding the free will. I believe in the omniscience of God. In my belief, there is what we call pre-ordination, which is a lot different from destiny. We are pre-ordained by God, our future, our lives...however, there are many pathways laid out for us and we have the free will to choose our own future. Whichever way we choose, God knows the outcome. He granted us free will, it is one of the divine characteristics He has given us humans.

If you have more questions, feel free to ask. :) Ciao and see you in casual! I haven't seen u there for days now.
 
Originally posted by Adam
Just a question here. For the sake of discussion, let's assume a single ultimate god exists, one which created the universe and us, blah blah blah.

Should we hold that god responsible for all wrongs in the universe? Or should we believe that the universe, all rights and wrongs, is all up to those within it, as we have free will? That for any god to be responsible, we could not have free will?

In short: If we have free will at all, can we hold god responsible for anything? Or do we value that it stays out of our existence entirely?
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I dont think I answered all your questions in my previous post. Anyway, God's will is good, pleasant and perfect (Romans 12:1-2) What seems to be unfavorable to us may be working in a lot more different way than we can comprehend. I don't hold God responsible for all the wrongs in the universe. All the wrongs we experience now in our planet is due to the entry of sin since the days of Adam and Eve. A perfect connection with God ceased to be.

I hold God responsible for everything but since humans are given free will, we cannot hold God as ultimately or solely responsible for all things. He may have a greater part in what's happening but our own free will contributes to the outcome. Hence, we are partially responsible. God certainly didn't want any of the Greenhouse effect we are experiencing now and a lot of other things which were a direct result of human action
 
gladzic where have u been man? LOL, I have tried to mention this to kids here (Cris, frenchy, xelios, etc.) and they are trying to point to me that because God "KNOWS ALL" then it means we have no freewill (omniscience cannot co-exist with freewill)....in summary the word "knowing" is another word for "controlling" .........LOL, Im surprised the brainwashed kids here didnt tell u the same thing they told me...
 
Going further, with your question regarding the free will. I believe in the omniscience of God. In my belief, there is what we call pre-ordination, which is a lot different from destiny. We are pre-ordained by God, our future, our lives...however, there are many pathways laid out for us and we have the free will to choose our own future. Whichever way we choose, God knows the outcome. He granted us free will, it is one of the divine characteristics He has given us humans.
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But in this instance free will can be taken two ways. First, if you look at it from our perspective, it looks like we do have free will. But if you look at it from a higher perspective you will see that our free will is negated by God's omniscience. God already knows every choice we will ever make in our lives, which begs the question why are we here? He knows how we will live our lives even before we are born, there is no need for this life.

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gladzic where have u been man? LOL, I have tried to mention this to kids here (Cris, frenchy, xelios, etc.) and they are trying to point to me that because God "KNOWS ALL" then it means we have no freewill (omniscience cannot co-exist with freewill)....in summary the word "knowing" is another word for "controlling" .........LOL, Im surprised the brainwashed kids here didnt tell u the same thing they told me...
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Alright MM, did you notice how he stated his views? Can you show me the difference between how he posted and how you posted in, say, this post:

Stupid kid.. Cars and technologies have nothing to do with intelligent design? Do you know what the word "Intelligent" means? READ WHAT YOU HAVE POSTED DUMMY BEFORE MAKING A COMMENT OK, THINK BEFORE POSTING SOMETHING...(We are created in the image of God, what good is it for God to reveal himself to humans if we are bnot valuable, THAT IS THE CLAIM IN WHICH YOU CANNOT FLAW, OR EVEN SCIENCE, BUT SCIENCE ONLY PROVES IT TO BE TRUE EVEN THE MORE
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Come on Whatsup, even my 6 year old brother could figure this one out, maybe it will give you some insight as to why most of us dislike you.
 
Originally posted by whatsupyall
.........LOL, Im surprised the brainwashed kids here didnt tell u the same thing they told me...
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Hmm, do you really wonder why, my good friend?
 
whatsupyall logic disproves God!

Rabbits ate my hands you Christian children you are wrong LOL because I am right God is dead and no-one cares if there's a hell I'll see you there tekil-i! tekil-i! brainwashed Christians are wrong because grapefruit is good with sugar summer girl, make me feeeel fine, you're always in the corner of my mind, ooh, make me feeel fine God exists not.
 
hey, god created hell too. then lucifer (who was one of god's top angels) pissed god off and got sent to hell. wait.... then aren't satanists really just worshipping god, if god created hell??
 
Should we hold that god is responsible for all wrongs in the universe?
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Yes because even if we have free will we are the direct result of his design.

If I design an intelligent robot that goes on a killing spree then who is responsible the robot or my design?

Note that this is different from the gun scenario where some are trying to hold gun manufacturers responsible for killings using their guns. Here there are two intelligences involved, the manufacturer and the person pulling the trigger, and they are independent and unconnected. However, if the gun were to up and kill someone on its own then clearly that would be a result of a faulty design.

Since our use of free will results in various degrees of chaos and evil then on the surface it would appear that we are responsible. However, the level of our intelligence, the design of our free will, our psychological tendencies to do harm, and the limits and capabilities of these faculties are the direct design of our creator.

If such a god is as perfect as has been claimed then it would be possible for him to design something that was perfect and incapable of doing evil.

The only conclusion we can draw, given his omnipotence and therefore ability to design something perfect, is that he deliberately chose to design us with all these imperfections knowing full well how we would behave. He is therefore directly responsible for any evil that results from allowing humans to live according to their free will that he designed.
 
What you argue is the concept of light itself. Light is "whatsoever doth make manifest is light" (Eph5:13). Therefore, is not good manifested by evil, and the things that are everlasting by the things that are temporal? An those of you who say you are christians, the god and you describe is not the one in the bible I read.(KJ)
 
Originally posted by Cris
Yes because even if we have free will we are the direct result of his design.

If I design an intelligent robot that goes on a killing spree then who is responsible the robot or my design?
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Succinct and to the point. Nice.

Originally posted by Cris
Note that this is different from the gun scenario where some are trying to hold gun manufacturers responsible for killings using their guns. Here there are two intelligences involved, the manufacturer and the person pulling the trigger, and they are independent and unconnected. However, if the gun were to up and kill someone on its own then clearly that would be a result of a faulty design.
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Excellent supporting point.
Originally posted by Cris

Since our use of free will results in various degrees of chaos and evil then on the surface it would appear that we are responsible. However, the level of our intelligence, the design of our free will, our psychological tendencies to do harm, and the limits and capabilities of these faculties are the direct design of our creator.
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You're pissing off the christians, and I like it.
Originally posted by Cris

If such a god is as perfect as has been claimed then it would be possible for him to design something that was perfect and incapable of doing evil.
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Absolutely, but this point can be twisted. Perfection is a broad term.
Originally posted by Cris

The only conclusion we can draw, given his omnipotence and therefore ability to design something perfect, is that he deliberately chose to design us with all these imperfections knowing full well how we would behave. He is therefore directly responsible for any evil that results from allowing humans to live according to their free will that he designed.
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Hmm, I used to think of it like this: "there is nothing more perfect that the imperfection of existence." You can twist things around like this. You'd think more theists would try it.
 
You know, the more I think about it, the "christian god" as it were, seems to me like a two year old. Hehe, two year olds exist. God therefore exists. End of story. :)
 
Yes God is responsible for everything, if He actually does exist. He created our brains, He created our souls, He created the concept of free will, He created human nature, and He created everything else that exists. Evil and sin are no more human practice than they are God's inventions.
 
Cris & Wesmorris:

Yes because even if we have free will we are the direct result of his design.

If I design an intelligent robot that goes on a killing spree then who is responsible the robot or my design?

Note that this is different from the gun scenario where some are trying to hold gun manufacturers responsible for killings using their guns. Here there are two intelligences involved, the manufacturer and the person pulling the trigger, and they are independent and unconnected. However, if the gun were to up and kill someone on its own then clearly that would be a result of a faulty design.
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You are imagining a god and then subjecting him to his own creation. By compraring people with guns or robots (even "intelligent" ones), you are simplifiying our existence and creation to a point where your argument makes sense. I understand that your emphasis lies on the 'design' of things, and that whatever properties these creations exhibit are a function of their design. What if you had no limit to your abilities as designer, and you designed something in your image that would be aware by itself - freely aware. The "flaw" of the design would be the freedom you have given it.

As an absurd example, imagne your 'gun' decided it was not a gun but a cigar-lighter, and imagining cigars wherever it went and trying to light them. If you then showed it what a gun was like and what it was supposed to do, it might not like the idea of having been created for destruction, and think the idea of lighting fires suits its personality better. Even if you became a gun and killed something as an example to it, it might still not see that as the purpose of its design, but as an option - and not a viable one in its own eyes. Above all, it starts blaming you for giving it a nozzle and refuse to accept any more bullets, staying in essence a gun, but not in practice.

I could go on, but my point is that our creation is very complex, and our 'design' was to love God. If God did not have sympathy for our inherent 'defect' of freedom, He would not have promised us freedom from such "freedom". He knows that with our capability for love also came our capability for hate. With our ability to see also came our ability not to see. He has taken responsibility for the result and provided a way out, but we still have to make the choice of what we believe to be our responsibility and our function- whether we accept our defects as defects and turn away from them.

Evil and sin are departures from our design. That is why the Bible calls it the perversion of truth. A lie cannot exist in the absense of truth. Do we blame truth for the existence of all lies?
 
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