Jesus Without The Bible...?

Regular0ldguy said:
That seems a lot more like rationalization than being rational. Being told what the rules are and what the consequences are and the basis for them doesn't cause "everyone" to lose their free will. Some will be rule breakers by choice. Some just useless. Heck, even following orders isn't losing your free will. You have a duty to ignore bad orders (Nuremberg trials and "A Few Good Men").
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you have already admitted that you would 'obey' only if God were to prove himself,
and do what he says. I sure as hell would
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its like listening to an expert because you have a choice to, and listening to someone who is in authority over you just because he is the boss..
But your god is being so subtle he's inscrutable.
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when he wants us to know something, he will make it clear..the knowledge that is, not the fact that it is from him.

We are all guessing because the message is so confused and poorly sourced.
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if one can get past all the 'do as your told's that is in religion and the bible, one can begin to see the knowledge/wisdom.

unfortunately, like you say "Some will be rule breakers by choice" so there will be lots of ppl who require 'do as your told' (its usually easier to 'do as your told' than to 'think for yourself')

so i will mildly disagree with the 'guessing' part,(he does give us lots of clues)
but i think the second part is a fair statement (confused and poorly sourced)
(see intentional 'think for yourself' errors in bible)
 
Lori_7 said:
or perhaps you just don't have the balls to go through it so he doesn't bother.
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There you go again. You don't have a clue as to what I've been through, how I live my life, or how sincere my search has been.

All you have are the voices in your head - a "remnant" of your "loopy" phase.
 
NMSquirrel said:
but even so, if God were to prove himself it would change us as a species, it would corrupt us in Gods eyes.(IMO)
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I just can't fathom this.

1) He wants us to worship and obey him.

2) He punishes us forever if we won't or don't.

3) He showed up to a couple of guys WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back, and then through a representative who was born and raised here, reportedly performed some miracles and then got killed by mortals.

4) There's lots of competition for Deity status around the world.

5) How could knowing the truth "corrupt" us? Does he only want people to follow him who hope his particular story was the right one on the menu and who are not particularly in need of convincing evidence of truth? Surely the bar isn't that low. I would think he would be interested in a little higher quality group of minds/hearts than that. Really, this is like being so proud of getting laid by the loosest woman in town. She'll do anyone. Is that what he thinks is the uncorrupted mind?


Also, what in the heck would be wrong with changing us? We just ain't that hot the way we are.
 
gmilam said:
There you go again. You don't have a clue as to what I've been through, how I live my life, or how sincere my search has been.

All you have are the voices in your head - a "remnant" of your "loopy" phase.
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there you go again. i could say the same to you about my life and my experience.
 
Regular0ldguy said:
1) He wants us to worship and obey him.
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i think it is more of a 'listen' than an 'obey',
otherwise that premise is from the bible and because of the canonization, from religion

2) He punishes us forever if we won't or don't.
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natural consequence of our actions, not he 'punishes' us.

3) He showed up to a couple of guys WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back, and then through a representative who was born and raised here, reportedly performed some miracles and then got killed by mortals.
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there are numerous ppl who claim to have a message from God and are trying to spread this..what makes those guys special?

4) There's lots of competition for Deity status around the world.
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alot of competition for 'do as we tell you'

5) How could knowing the truth "corrupt" us?
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changing the meaning of what i said doesn't help.


I would think he would be interested in a little higher quality group of minds/hearts than that.
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like those that would think for themselves?


Also, what in the heck would be wrong with changing us? We just ain't that hot the way we are.
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ok, now this is getting to where i struggle...
the logical progression to what i am saying equals 'we are perfect the way we are', and i do not agree with that, i believe we are ALL screwed up..
 
NMSquirrel said:
i think it is more of a 'listen' than an 'obey',
otherwise that premise is from the bible and because of the canonization, from religion
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Fine, whatever you feel it says to you. I'm thinking there are a lot of things in the old book about worshiping him. At least a couple in the commandments alone.


NMSquirrel said:
natural consequence of our actions, not he 'punishes' us.
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There aren't any "natural consequences" given that the guy wrote the whole rule book (unless you are a Leibnitz type who thinks natural laws exist apart from and independently of God - which makes him more of a spaceman who lives here with us.)


NMSquirrel said:
there are numerous ppl who claim to have a message from God and are trying to spread this..what makes those guys special?
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Well your competitors have always taught me that they were special and rare and not every ditz had actual conversations with the holy one, and those that did get sainted rather than institutionalized.

NMSquirrel said:
alot of competition for 'do as we tell you'
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I meant there are a lot of alternative Gods vying for your belief commitment, and that's just the current crop. If you count the historical ones. Sheesh think of all the indian versions, and then the greeks and romans, and all the tribes, and every other group of 7 or more folks who shared a hut. They are truly countless. Like Quine's invisible fat man in the door, there is no end to them.



NMSquirrel said:
changing the meaning of what i said doesn't help.
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OK, didn't realize, so "corrupt us in God's eyes" meaning what? Only he would see us as corrupt, and we wouldn't really be corrupted? I don't follow that.

NMSquirrel said:
like those that would think for themselves?
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Well yes but with the caveat that they thought in a high quality manner, and not like a ditzy, undisciplined, uncaring, unreflective, knee-jerk, believe whatever my mom told me , or just go through the motions and it will eventually become part of you (Pascal's wager) goof off.


NMSquirrel said:
ok, now this is getting to where i struggle...
the logical progression to what i am saying equals 'we are perfect the way we are', and i do not agree with that, i believe we are ALL screwed up..
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Some of us more than others, you would have to admit.

Nothing said here is directed at you personally BTW. Not kidding.
 
Lori_7 said:
there you go again. i could say the same to you about my life and my experience.
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I base my understanding of you on your words.

If it's any consolation, I believe that you believe. And, as long as you're not a danger to yourself or others - I don't care if you hear voices.

On the other hand, I find your holier than thou attitude a bit obnoxious and arrogant.
 
Regular0ldguy said:
Fine, whatever you feel it says to you. I'm thinking there are a lot of things in the old book about worshiping him. At least a couple in the commandments alone.
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it is amazing how many ppl refer to the old testament when talking about God,New testament has a different flavor to it..
(old testament is more 'do as your told or else', new testament is more of 'this is why this needs to be done'


There aren't any "natural consequences" given that the guy wrote the whole rule book (unless you are a Leibnitz type who thinks natural laws exist apart from and independently of God - which makes him more of a spaceman who lives here with us.)
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i do not believe the bible is the unerring word of God (you should've figured that one by yourself) i believe it is mans attempt to communicate God to others.
this discussion is starting to sound like the basic theist/atheist disscusion, IE theist shares views, atheist dismisses view no matter what.

Well your competitors have always taught me that they were special and rare and not every ditz had actual conversations with the holy one, and those that did get sainted rather than institutionalized.
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my competitors?
and Man does the sainting not God.

I meant there are a lot of alternative Gods vying for your belief commitment, and that's just the current crop. If you count the historical ones. Sheesh think of all the indian versions, and then the greeks and romans, and all the tribes, and every other group of 7 or more folks who shared a hut. They are truly countless. Like Quine's invisible fat man in the door, there is no end to them.
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i have explained my beliefs in this respect (i think i have explained it to you)

OK, didn't realize, so "corrupt us in God's eyes" meaning what? Only he would see us as corrupt, and we wouldn't really be corrupted? I don't follow that.
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you had changed 'knowing God exist' to 'knowing the truth' two different concepts.

Well yes but with the caveat that they thought in a high quality manner, and not like a ditzy, undisciplined, uncaring, unreflective, knee-jerk, believe whatever my mom told me ,
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this is what the problem is in my opinion, too many ppl too willing to believe just anything a person says about God.

or just go through the motions and it will eventually become part of you (Pascal's wager) goof off.
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fake it till you make it?

Nothing said here is directed at you personally BTW. Not kidding.
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hell,i am usually the first one to say that i am screwed up..;)
 
gmilam said:
Then it's a good thing I'm not trying to convince anyone that the creator of the universe has me on speed dial.

Surely I'm not the first one to be skeptical.
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it's called christianity. you know, that major world religion? what i'm testifying to is what the bible is about. you know, the most well known book on the entire planet?
 
Lori_7 said:
...you know, the most well known book on the entire planet?...
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--The Book of matches.
--The Passport book.

The Bible is the most well known book that couldn't be given away for free*.

*Though some have been coerced with potlucks.
 
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The Bible which means Book so you could say " The Book " well it has good stories in it . Shit yeah lot of them . That whole Job thing and him being bushwhacked , man tough life . Pretty good plot if you ask me . Seems like modern versions with exra twists would make a big seller in the movie industry
I tell you Kings is the shit though . Following genealogies is fun too . Abraham was born before Noah died . Did you know that ? Don't seem possible ? Yet it don't seem possible my grandpa lived during the civil war either and his dad owning slaves . Well Noah living while Abraham is a lot bigger stretch then even my personal anomaly. It does make the book have a mystic though . Yeah fantasy island type stuff . Could there be logical explanations? I don't know , pretty far fetched ! Maybe though . Maybe some misinformation or embellished information. You all know how stories get inflated
 
Lori_7 said:
people can wish all they want; doesn't make it true.
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There is only one right answer among a myriad of wrong ones, that the wrong ones seem often like a majority rule. Ignorance and failure are difficult to overcome, unless slapped severely with the cold reality...of reality.
 
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