'It's a child not a choice...but not if you were raped'

[Cellar_Door]

This is where one of the main disagreements is.

There are many other issues related to abortion, there is more to abortion than just the mere act of it.
When does human life begin? Is abortion murder or not?
What is normal sexuality?
Is it ethical to kill people who are somehow an inconvenience?
When should one person's life be sacrificed at the expense of another's? When not?
And many more.
These issues involve other people than just the pregnant women, and they involve the greater scope of the discourse of ethics in a society.

Hear hear!

 

[spidergoat]

The bible says you aren't a person until you take a breath.

 

[IceLight020]

The bible says you aren't a person until you take a breath.

But then comes the thing about skin breathing right?

 

[Cellar_Door]

The bible says you aren't a person until you take a breath.

You can argue that a foetus is always taking part in gaseous exchange though as its cells respire.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

When does someone not have a personal opinion of someone else supporting their personal opinion though? You could easily disregard anything using this method of problem solving. Research is opinions of someone else you use to back up yours. It's his personal opinion, but what if it is a good personal opinion? It isn't about it being a personal opinion, it all comes down to that if it is a good one. All opinions, in this case at least, involve others. His opinion is now out there to the public. Even if it is a lie, it still doesn't defeat the fact that it exists as a lie, thus it wouldn't hurt to take it into account even if it was a lie. If it was a lie, does it really matter if you take it in? You won't see it as a truth if it is a lie so there is no harm in taking his opinion into consideration. Otherwise you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy about him being wrong, never giving a chance for him to prove himself right. If you know your right, this "lie" will not hurt to take into your database of knowledge. I'm not trying to make any arguments here, I am just trying to keep the peace.

Where do you see that its disregarded? We are discussing the topic with people we disagree with their opinion is not being disregarded. I have said plenty of times its fine to believe abortion wrong, it means they will never have an abortion. What I disagree with is other's attempting to make it illegal for others strictly based on their personal ethics. Go back and read the thread, Signal and I have been going at it for threads and pages past.

 

[IceLight020]

What I disagree with is other's attempting to make it illegal for others strictly based on their personal ethics.

But that is what I am talking about.

Go back to page twenty-five and read my story and read about how if I wasn't born there would be a numerous amount of people dead over my non-existence.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

But that is what I am talking about.

Go back to page twenty-five and read my story and read about how if I wasn't born there would be a numerous amount of people dead over my non-existence.

But you were born. If you make it you pass. If you didn't there isn't anything to discuss. The unborn don't ruminate how they could have been a contender.

 

[IceLight020]

But you were born. If you make it you pass. If you didn't there isn't anything to discuss.

The thing that you may have looked over is that if I was killed as a fetus, who would be there to save that child from drowning? I looked back and forth consecutively, thinking I would drown saving the child but decided that even if I was to drown, she would still be alive if I tried hard enough so I took the risk. We both ended up alive. Do you think that event would have happened if I was killed just because I was a fetus because of a rape? As I said before, people do not seem to realize how one life can effect another person's life. Same for the people I saved from committing suicide.

 

[IceLight020]

But you were born. If you make it you pass. If you didn't there isn't anything to discuss. The unborn don't ruminate how they could have been a contender.

But then you could argue that they never had a chance to argue and I am one of the "could be" unborn people thus making this whole argument about them not being a contender false. I was one of those who could have been killed as a fetus. You think a fetus can talk? They surely can breath if you consider the fact that they have skin. Skin can breath. Did you not know that? I am not going for or against abortion. I am however letting you know the facts of some situations and that they are indeed existent, otherwise you wouldn't even have seen the definition of fetus be created now would you? It's just something to think about.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The thing that you may have looked over is that if I was killed as a fetus, who would be there to save that child from drowning? I looked back and forth consecutively, thinking I would drown saving the child but decided that even if I was to drown, she would still be alive if I tried hard enough so I took the risk. We both ended up alive. Do you think that event would have happened if I was killed just because I was a fetus because of a rape? As I said before, people do not seem to realize how one life can effect another person's life. Same for the people I saved from committing suicide.

First of all you wouldn't know what you would or could have done. Everything you say is a measure of how you judge your life in hindsight the unborn are only potentials, if it doesn't come into being its equivalent to having never come into existence. You could decide that if someone decides to never have children then they don't know what they would have contributed to the world. You could take that further and say if I had walked down this street and not that what difference would it have made.

The point is that your mother decided to keep you and not have an abortion. She made a choice.

IceLight: But then you could argue that they never had a chance to argue and I am one of the "could be" unborn people thus making this whole argument about them not being a contender false. I was one of those who could have been killed as a fetus. You think a fetus can talk? They surely can breath if you consider the fact that they have skin. Skin can breath. Did you not know that? I am not going for or against abortion. I am however letting you know the facts of some situations and that they are indeed existent, otherwise you wouldn't even have seen the definition of fetus be created now would you? It's just something to think about.

I am arguing that they never had a chance nor a choice. You could have been but you weren't so you are. There isn't anything magical about that.
A fetus cannot talk, think nor feel. A fetus isn't conscious. And no they cannot breath.

 

[IceLight020]

First of all you wouldn't know what you would or could have done.

Your right I wouldn't know. But then again, how could I know if I was never born is where it all eventually comes back to logically.

Everything you say is a measure of how you judge your life in hindsight the unborn are only potentials, if it doesn't come into being its equivalent to having never come into existence.

Doesn't mean it is wrong right? As I have said before, even research has it's own bias and opinions. We don't disregard research just because it has bias and opinions right?

You could decide that if someone decides to never have children then they don't know what they would have contributed to the world.

Exactly?

You could take that further and say if I had walked down this street and not that what difference would it have made.

I think you got my point, to a degree... One step could mean the difference of life or death in a emergency situation.

The point is that your mother decided to keep you and not have an abortion. She made a choice.

Yes she did, but this is irrelevant but somewhat relevant to what I am discussing right now. We are not on the same page.

 

[spidergoat]

But then comes the thing about skin breathing right?

You can argue that a foetus is always taking part in gaseous exchange though as its cells respire.

That's not a real breath. A foetus isn't an independent being, so it falls under the control of the mother. It is literally the mother's body, to kill or nurture as she sees fit.

 

[IceLight020]

That's not a real breath. A foetus isn't an independent being, so it falls under the control of the mother. It is literally the mother's body, to kill or nurture as she sees fit.

You want to know why the made "The shoes that can breath!" quote for shoes? Skin can breath. And your right. Just like we have a choice of murder, we also have a choice of abortion. We also have a choice to have protected or unprotected sex and have a choice to also keep or not a keep a child that was caused from a rape. We can also prevent ourselves from even being raped. That doesn't mean that you will never be raped but a person who says "Your a *****." is pretty much asking for conflict are they not? Not that rape is the right way to handle them, but still... When there is a problem, there is ALWAYS a better way to handle things.

I think everyone here can conclude that cussing at someone increases the amount of hostility that will follow you later on correct? Newton's third law. With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

 

[spidergoat]

The thing that you may have looked over is that if I was killed as a fetus, who would be there to save that child from drowning? I looked back and forth consecutively, thinking I would drown saving the child but decided that even if I was to drown, she would still be alive if I tried hard enough so I took the risk. We both ended up alive. Do you think that event would have happened if I was killed just because I was a fetus because of a rape? As I said before, people do not seem to realize how one life can effect another person's life. Same for the people I saved from committing suicide.

And what if the aborted fetus was going to be a serial killer? That argument doesn't work. The fact is an unwanted pregnancy rarely has a successful outcome in terms of a well adjusted individual. If we value children, we should only have them when we are truly prepared to have them, mentally, physically, and financially.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Doesn't mean it is wrong right? As I have said before, even research has it's own bias and opinions. We don't disregard research just because it has bias and opinions right?


Yes she did, but this is irrelevant but somewhat relevant to what I am discussing right now. We are not on the same page.

Its neither. Its simply how you are looking back on your life. Looking back on ones life isn't research. You cannot know for sure if the person who's life you had saved wouldn't have lived anyway if you were taken out of the equation.

No its not irrelevant. Your mother's choice is exactly what's relevant precisely because she had a choice. What is not relevant are hypotheticals that cannot be proven or disproven.

 

[spidergoat]

You want to know why the made "The shoes that can breath!" quote for shoes? Skin can breath.

Let's see how long you can live that way... Why do we cover our mouths when yawning? It was thought that your soul could leave you through your breath.

 

[IceLight020]

Let's see how long you can live that way... Why do we cover our mouths when yawning? It was thought that your soul could leave you through your breath.

Let's see how long you can live without having anything but your mouth breath then. Contradicted right? Our body would not like not being able to breath.

 

[IceLight020]

Looking back on ones life isn't research.

Doesn't research technically require one to first start looking at their life to relate themselves to others and figure out how to problem solve situations?

You cannot know for sure if the person who's life you had saved wouldn't have lived anyway if you were taken out of the equation.

She was already close to being under water and by the time her baby-sitter noticed, it would have been too late. But yes, you still realize there is that possibility as well!

What is not relevant are hypotheticals that cannot be proven or disproven.

Just because it cannot be proven or dis proven doesn't mean it is false.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Doesn't research technically require one to first start looking at their life to relate themselves to others and figure out how to problem solve situations?



She was already close to being under water and by the time her baby-sitter noticed, it would have been too late. But yes, you still realize there is that possibility as well!



Just because it cannot be proven or dis proven doesn't mean it is false.

No it doesn't.

So what. You still don't know what would have happened if you were not there.

If you cannot prove it or disprove it then there isn't much to discuss in terms of 'truth'.

 

[IceLight020]

No it doesn't.

Based on what criteria?

So what. You still don't know what would have happened if you were not there

I can conclude she would be dead considering how much of her body was underwater and considering I have very well constructed photographic memory. It was an important event to me.

If you cannot prove it or disprove it then there isn't much to discuss in terms of 'truth'.

Thomas Theorem - "If men define situations as real, they are real in their consequences." - W. I. Thomas