'It's a child not a choice...but not if you were raped'

Absinance (sic) or waiting for marriage is just the best policy.

No it's not, it's fucking insanity.

Why would you want to commit to being with someone for your entire life when you don't even know if you're compatible in one of the most important ways?

Why the assumption that all people want to get married? Or that once you get married it doesn't matter because you'll want children? What then if you don't? Just don't have sex at all? Yeah, right.
 
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You are comparing the potential for a human being (zygote) as being the same as an actual born human being in charge of their own body?


You lost any moral high ground when you decided to use the 'black man' argument.. It is not the same.

Again.. A woman has more rights over her own body than anyone else, including the potential human being she may be carrying. That potential human being will never be seen has having equal rights to her body unless she permits it.


Not for me to have a problem with it. It is not my body and thus, not my place to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with any other entity inhabiting her body.

Do you understand that part?


Employees do not inhabit the physical bodies of their employers. And a woman's body is hardly like that of an employer. The potential child is not an employee but is an entity inhabiting the physical body of another human being. That other human being has rights over their body and what they allow in said body. An employer is an artificial entity that by law, has rights to protect itself from others and can fire employees when the need arises (ie, abort their terms of employment). An employee can be dependent on an employer for a paycheck and a place of employment so long as the employer allows them.

Unless of course you are now saying that employers should never be given the right to terminate anyone's employment? You wouldn't suggest that but you would suggest that a human being be denied any rights over their own bodies to allow a potential human being to inhabit it, sometimes to the mother's detriment and possible death? Why does the mother's rights over her own body not exist? Why does a woman not have rights over her body LG?


An employee has rights because they are human beings and thus, have rights over their own bodies. No other human being or entity has rights over their bodies. Yet you seem to think that a potential human being should have more rights (not even equal rights) over that of the mother's and that their rights somehow trumps that of the mother's? Why? Why does a woman not have rights over her body?

If we were to employ your maxim or your beliefs, then a woman would never have any rights over her own body (which leaves the door open to many legal issues) because you seem to feel that even a potential human being should have more rights over that of a woman's body than the woman should have over her own. So if a potential human being's rights trumps that of a woman's rights over her body, what about other human beings rights over her body? Do you see the potential dangers of this?


The woman is already in power over her own body. Her rights over her body trumps that of any other, including any potential human being she may be carrying. Therefore, it would be unlawful and immoral to demand that she have no rights over her own body because to do so would mean that she has no basic human rights, which leaves the door open to things you don't even want to consider. A third party will never have more rights over your body unless you expressly give them the right to do so, and as an individual person, you can withdraw those rights when you choose to (ie you can demand to not be treated for something and you can even demand a DNR on yourself).. Understand why? Because it is your body and no other entity has rights over your body unless you expressly allow them to. This means you are protected from rape for example. Yet you seem to believe that a woman should not be given rights over her body against any other entity if that entity has the potential to be a human being if it develops..
There are even legal precedents for institutions/companies being liable for negligence/damages to persons who incurred birth defects as a result of their mismanagement ... even if the mismanagement occurred several months/years before their conception (toxic poisoning etc) ... what to speak of more straightforward moral implications of a pregnant woman smoking or whatever ... similarly its immoral for a mother to take drugs during pregnancy .... so in light of all this, its not clear why a different thinking is required if she decides to terminate the life during the same time frame

IOW just because its happening inside a woman's body in no way exempts the life that is coming to bear or the mother from a host of justice and moral related issues




Nonsense.

My beliefs stems from basic human rights and that each individual has rights over their own bodies and I do not believe that other parties/entities should have rights over our bodies unless we consent to it. Therefore if a woman does not consent to another entity inhabiting her body, that other entity should not remain in her body against her wishes. Just as she may not consent to being raped and the law is on her side, she can not consent to having a potential human being inhabit her body for any length of time if she chooses to not have it there. Simple really.

And the law supports the woman's rights to her own body and thus, abortion is legal if she so chooses to exercise that right.
then perhaps you are offering a different argument to Lucy, who was suggesting that a relationship of dependence automatically exempts one from any access to justice issues
 
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I was inferring is that it is definitely not the main component. In fact in terms of compatibility it is kind of low on the list.

I'd wager it's pretty high on the list. Marriage counselors often gage the status of a relationship by how satisfied a couple is with their sex life or if there is a mismatch in satisfaction. If the importance of a sexual relationship was neither here nor there then why would professionals in the feild encourage couples to improve it? Without sex your relationship is no different than the relationship you have with friends maybe not even that. But I mean, if you actually enjoy being celibate while you are in a committed relationship then "to each their own" I guess. :shrug: For me it's the key difference between an intimate relationship and a close friendship.
 
I'd like to see Glaucon's answer to LG's question too.

My answer is precisely the same as yours:

For one, because the pro-abortionists are basing their defense on a current scientific explanation that an embryo/foetus is not yet a living being, or that it doesn't feel pain, and therefore, removing it from the womb is not killing/murder.

The accusation is that in performing an abortion, one is killing. The pro-abortion camp would do much better for themselves if they simply said "yes, you're right". So be it.

At least then the anti-abortionist camp would then be forced to come up with some other semblance of an argument....
 
IOW since the notion of murder for the sake of convenience is not acceptable by current moral standards, it has be given a different name in order to slip behind the radars (although ironically, even abortion is sometimes adamantly referred to as "tissue removal")


It's not?
When did this happen?

As far as I'm aware, capital punishment still happens in the States, not to mention the executionary powers granted to soldiers of numerous countries during wartime...

sure
But accepting the candidate as suitable for sanctioned murder on the basis of their perceived potential inconvenience (financial and social) certainly seems to take the moral barometer down a peg or two

I don't see how.
You're saying that, somehow, we're now capable of performing an ethical calculus??



Signal already sufficiently responded for me.

:)
 
Someone says zygotes have the potential to become a human being (because you know, the greater majority of zygotes are actually naturally aborted) and you come out with "blacks are not human blah blah"?

Is this you supposedly taking a higher moral ground here?

The fail is strong in you.

Rhetorical questions?

lightgigantic is threadshitting. It's the only thing he ever does here, and he's got over 12,000 posts' worth of history demonstrating his methods (not that there's anything particularly unique about them, here). This is news, or some mystery? The siezure-inducing avatar seems to sum it all up pretty well, frankly.
 
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It's not?
When did this happen?

As far as I'm aware, capital punishment still happens in the States, not to mention the executionary powers granted to soldiers of numerous countries during wartime...
I don't think such cases are granted purely on the case of personal inconvenience (granted that their may be an exception for an easily offended militant despotic regime). Usually the case for it is national security or the like

I don't see how.
You're saying that, somehow, we're now capable of performing an ethical calculus??
On the contrary, comparing the moral value of several options is essentially what ethics is all about.

Consider the case of soldiers engaged in killing some people for the sake of protecting the security interests of their country ... and consider the case of soldiers engaged in killing some people for the sake of stabilizing the stock prices that the military has heavy investments in.

Which one do you think stands as higher on the moral barometer?
 
I don't think such cases are granted purely on the case of personal inconvenience (granted that their may be an exception for an easily offended militant despotic regime). Usually the case for it is national security or the like


And you're arguing that a reason like 'national security' is in some significant way different from being 'inconvenienced'....

Sorry, I don't buy it...

On the contrary, comparing the moral value of several options is essentially what ethics is all about.



Precisely.

But... there is no standard.

Ultimately, that ethical hierarchy is arbitrarily assigned by a specific culture and time.

Which one do you think stands as higher on the moral barometer?

Neither.

See above.
 
But... there is no standard.

Ultimately, that ethical hierarchy is arbitrarily assigned by a specific culture and time.

if one is both logical and consistent in one's reasoning, is it possible to formulate some objective ethical standards?
 
And you're arguing that a reason like 'national security' is in some significant way different from being 'inconvenienced'....

Sorry, I don't buy it...
Really?
You think collective interests are on par with specific individual interests?

(IOW the difference between the mathematics of both groups doesn't weigh in on any ethical decision?)




Precisely.

But... there is no standard.

Ultimately, that ethical hierarchy is arbitrarily assigned by a specific culture and time.
Even if you want to isolate the investigation of ethics to a particular time and place, you still encounter several opposing views - abortion being a classic example



Neither.

See above.

As far a s ethics is concerned, that's a non-argument.

IOW what you are advocating is a complete absence of tools to deconstruct any ethical problem
 
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I'd wager it's pretty high on the list. Marriage counselors often gage the status of a relationship by how satisfied a couple is with their sex life or if there is a mismatch in satisfaction. If the importance of a sexual relationship was neither here nor there then why would professionals in the feild encourage couples to improve it? Without sex your relationship is no different than the relationship you have with friends maybe not even that. But I mean, if you actually enjoy being celibate while you are in a committed relationship then "to each their own" I guess. :shrug: For me it's the key difference between an intimate relationship and a close friendship.


I couldn't have put it better myself. Sex is natures way of keeping groups together (either pairs or small groups) and for the biological evidence of this the animal's which have long infancy (dolphins, apes and humans) are surprise surprise the same animals which get pleasure from sex
 
Rhetorical questions?

lightgigantic is threadshitting. It's the only thing he ever does here, and he's got over 12,000 posts' worth of history demonstrating his methods (not that there's anything particularly unique about them, here). This is news, or some mystery? The siezure-inducing avatar seems to sum it all up pretty well, frankly.
lemme guess .... pro-abortion and atheist, right?
:D
 
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I couldn't have put it better myself. Sex is natures way of keeping groups together (either pairs or small groups) and for the biological evidence of this the animal's which have long infancy (dolphins, apes and humans) are surprise surprise the same animals which get pleasure from sex

So you are with your spouse for sex? (rhetorical question)

And no offense, but how do you know what animals get pleasure from sex? I think that is...where did you get this information from?

Sex is natures way of keeping groups together

LOL...yeah for ten minutes...or so.:D
 
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No it's not, it's fucking insanity.

Why would you want to commit to being with someone for your entire life when you don't even know if you're compatible in one of the most important ways?

Why the assumption that all people want to get married? Or that once youi get married it doesn't matter because you'll want children? What then if you don't? Just don't have sex at all? Yeah, right.

Well the world is going to become over populated anyway but the problem with abortion and reproduction in general is that smarter people are not reproducing or i should say less (sometimes much less) intelligent people are reproducing like factories. So sure everyone can and probably sould experience one...two...maybe three kids but 10-20 kids per person and the numbers just wont work out. In China they had or maybe still have one child per person. otoh, abortion hasnt been working out either...does not mean i am against abortion and for rape i think it goes without that it is definitely unfair to the woman but then lets eliminate the rapist too. People get uncomfortable with surgical controls as a requirement though. And yet there are so many other requirements and laws. So i have no answers.

And i notice the misspelling in all my posts.:)
 
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if one is both logical and consistent in one's reasoning, is it possible to formulate some objective ethical standards?

*tsk tsk*

For all usual practical intents and purposes,
logical consistency = OCD (also sociopathy(-like), psychopathy(-like))

:(
 
Really?
You think collective interests are on par with specific individual interests?

(IOW the difference between the mathematics of both groups doesn't weigh in on any ethical decision?)

Around here, children are taught from early on that "life is a struggle for survival" and "only the strong survive".
This is used to justify meat-eating, abortion, capitalism, invading other countries ...
Early on, people learn to live in crisis mode.


You don't think the area of killing treads on sensitive ethical ground?

Not for someone who lives in crisis mode.


Even if you want to isolate the investigation of ethics to a particular time and place, you still encounter several opposing views - abortion being a classic example

Which matters very little when barbarians are invading your country (or at least you believe they are), or when you live in constant fear of losing your job ...


As far a s ethics is concerned, that's a non-argument.

IOW what you are advocating is a complete absence of tools to deconstruct any ethical problem

They say ethics are for people who can afford them, while the rest of us are just struggling to get by.
 
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