"Islamic" Golden Age

[Michael]

Science doesn't have anything to do with being "Western" it's simply a process of attaining information about reality.

If you want to talk about the scientific discoveries that were made in Europe then I'd say yes, those accomplishments were not based on "Christian" faith but exactly the opposite - observation, repeatability and collected evidence.

A "Renaissance" of Islamic ideas is a valid statement. It suggests a rebirth of ideas about "Islam". Used in a religous context it refers to the superstitous teachings in Islam and their development.

 

[Bricoleur]

Bricoleur,

Your posts, at least as I read it, agrees with my assesment. If there were a period of some advancments it had nothing to do with "Islam" and if anything "Islam" retards advancement. So the words "Islamic Golden Age" in refering to anything other than the development of the religious ideas that came known as "Islam" is oxymoron.

As is "Islamic" electrons.

Michael

That's how I see it. The renaissance mentioned is due to a less than zealous adherence to the Koran, an anomoly that was 'rectified' by later fundamentalism that ossified the religion.
I'm interested to know if there is anything specific in the Koran that says Mulsims should outright reject the word of non-believers. By word I mean a broader interpretation than just religious expression or belief, but extended to cover any teaching and by association, secular, scientific, etc.
If that is the case, the result would be al-Ghazali's campaign to reject Greek ideas, as directly sanctioned by the word of God. Or is it simply an unsanctioned fear that such learning could corrupt the true believers?

 

[Michael]

I know Christians that direct their children away from the Sciences as it may "endanger" their soul if they begin to question the Christian order of things. It seems much the same.

 

[Bricoleur]

The advancements of "Western science" had nothing to do with "Christianity" either then, by the same logic. The word "Renaissance" is an oxymoron in referring to anything other than the development of Islamic ideas.

I would agree, in that it had little to do directly with the word of the Bible. Its a well-known fact that at times the Church, the authorities, actively persecuted people researching natural sciences that contradicted the Bible. And similarly, some scientists agonised over the conflict between their religion and their discoveries.
However, I think it could be said that the social milleu created by the Church allowed conditions for later scientific inquirey. The creation of universities is a good example.
I don't understand you next statement about renaissance having a solely Islamic ownership. For a start the word is Latin. Wasn't the Western version a similar explosion of learning, again supported by open-minded leaders?

 

[disease]

Science doesn't have anything to do with being "Western" it's simply a process of attaining information about reality.

The history is supposed to go Greek->Islamic->Western; unless you know about a different history and would like to tell everyone?

If you want to talk about the scientific discoveries that were made in Europe then I'd say yes, those accomplishments were not based on "Christian" faith but exactly the opposite - observation, repeatability and collected evidence.

And where were the ideas of "observation, repeatability and collected evidence" developed, did Western, Christian scientists develop the scientific "method" all by themselves?

A "Renaissance" of Islamic ideas is a valid statement. It suggests a rebirth of ideas about "Islam". Used in a religous context it refers to the superstitous teachings in Islam and their development.

The "Renaissance" that we know about, which was a Western phenomenon, was after centuries of supposed repression, by religion. As I say, it's an oxymoron in your logical paradigm, because it was the furtherance of ideas established by "Islamic science", and followed centuries of Islamic influence - in Iberia, and over in middle Asia the Turks, the Ottomans, those guys.

 

[Bricoleur]

The Rennaisance was aided by Islamic scholarship, no doubt, some of it directly, but also indirectly. Many of the leading figures in Europe were able to rediscover the ancient Greek knowledge via treatises copied by Arabic scholars. The originals were lost, suppressed or destroyed on purpose, perhaps.

Can't resist: Egyptian->Greek->Islamic->Western

 

[disease]

Someone called Coulomb rediscovered something about friction that Da Vinci had noted centuries earlier. We'll never know how much was lost altogether, but we know they didn't build particle accelerators, say. But we know Islamic science used the scientific method first, that was definitely borrowed from that Arab who studied optics, back in the "dark ages".

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I know Christians that direct their children away from the Sciences as it may "endanger" their soul if they begin to question the Christian order of things. It seems much the same.

*************
M*W: Good point. I've read several books written by victims of the FLDS, and steering their schools away from the sciences was commonplace... especially those schools who were taught by their own FLDS certified teachers!

 

[Michael]

Greek->Islamic->Western; unless you know about a different history and would like to tell everyone?

Greco-Roman is Western, so it seems you have really written this: Western -> Islam -> Western.

Or, Geographic location -> Religious Superstition -> Geographic location.

:bugeye:


Not to mention nothing is so linear and you're discounting all the civilizatiosn before Greece, namely Egypt! and what of the Chinese and Indians?!

To be consistent maybe you should write:

Polytheistic Egyptian Pantheon -> Polytheistic Greek Pantheon + Polytheistic Roman Pantheon -> Christianity + Roman Pantheon -> Islam + Polytheistic Hindu Pantheon + Polytheistic Chinese Pantheon + Polytheistic European Pantheons -> Christianity.

OR

Egypt -> Europe -> Middle East -> Europe.


None of which really is true.

I’m going to summarize an earlier post from a different thread:

This seems to be the Muslim’s very biased point of view: Without “Islam” Europeans would never have entered the Renaissance.

This is an odd statement to make: "Islam" sparked the renaissance by preserving the polytheistic Greek Philosophies? Seems a sad attempt to me? No? I mean, if the Greeks and Romans were able to build their civilization from the ground up with out any help from “Islam” surely they could do so again. Especially considering they didn’t turn into backwards barbarians. They still had math, literature, art, wine etc… (Florence and Venice). Not to mention, is Islam was so great, why weren’t Muslim flying to the moon? Building TV’s? Computers? Where’s the great “Islamic” Renaissance?

It doesn’t exist for the exact reasons Bricoleur posted.


Byzantine Lands were conquered by Arabs. Egyptian and Syrian monasteries did contain many Greek and Roman texts. Muslims did attain some of these texts - as spoils of war. Is this how "Islam" preserved Greek texts? As spoils of Holy war?

The Cambridge History of Later Medieval Philosophy
Bernard Dod writes 'a tenacious legend that the West learnt its Aristotle via translations from the Arabic, but the fact is the West only turned to Arabic in default of the more intelligible Greek-Latin ones'

Frederick Copleston writes in A History of Philosophy,) that 'it is a mistake to imagine that the Latin scholastics were entirely dependent upon translations from Arabic or even that translation from the Arabic always preceded translation from the Greek.' 'translation from the Greek generally preceded translation from the Arabic.'

In A History of Twelfth—Century Western Philosophy Peter Dronke writes 'most of the works of Aristotle...were translated directly from the Greek, and only exceptionally by way of an Arabic intermediary.'

In The Cambridge Companion to Arabic Philosophy:
'The Republic of Plato, though translated into Arabic, was not subsequently translated into Latin.' This should be noted that this is the only work of Plato translated directly into Arabic and that it did not make its way back to the West.

Lets revisit 14th -16th century in Florence, Siena, Venice. Lets think about art, dance and sculptor.

1) How did “Islam influence Leonardo da Vinci? His painting style is nothing like that of even the Middle East.

2) How about Michelangelo Buonarroti? Take “David” for example. His work would have been heresy in the Middle East. How then was he influenced? Muslims, like Xians at one point, became so fanatical they banned human figure in art.

3) Ballet emerged in Italy during the 15th century. How is this a product of Islam?

4) Assuming there was a William Shakespeare in 15-1600s England. How was he influenced by Islam?

Take a long view of the Middle East. The great advancements made from the times of the Egyptians through to the Romans on the Western part of the ME. Now compare this with the achievements made under Islamic Theocracy. You’ll find the pace actually SLOWS. The eastern Mediterranean cities saw a complete collapse of their economies and return to subsistence farming. Much know how in the arts (like sculpting) was lost - forever. The greatest advancements under Islamic rule were made the FURTHER away from Islam one got – mainly in European SPAIN and during a time referred to as the Jewish Golden Age.

We know that progress continued in Europe after Christendom and monotheocracy. But it was slow. It was hindered. I see no difference under Middle East theocratic Islam - especially by the 14th century. Islam (just like Xianity) in the end, retarded civil advancement. Oh advancement continued - just at a much slower pace until it is so slow we call it stagnate. And, I’d hardly credit the initial surge of productivity in the 700s to “Islam”. Why not credit the Chinese golden age to Shamanism – I mean, it occurred post-their crushing defeat (80 million dead) by the Mongolians. Shamanism was Mongolian religion. Mongolian ruled China. Heh, must be Shamanism sparked the Chinese Golden Age. Luckily it only cost the lives of 80 million Chinese. Do you see my point?



Anyway, this all goes back to the main point. Of teacing people the words "Islamic" Golden Age and repeating it over and over is (a) wrong and (b) really propaganda. I've met a number of Communist Chinese who'd credit BlueRay DVD's to China, because Japan owes everything to China. I see "Islamic" Golden Age as Islamic Communist Propaganda.


Michael

 

[disease]

Dude, you've managed to conclude all that because I only put 3 civilizations in the list?
Arguably without the influence of Islamic science and thought, the West might not have entered its awakening when it did, it didn't wait for something else, more to the point. Ironically Christian science threw off religious shackles, at the same time Islamic science began to put them on. Who says it was all thanks to Muslims and their version of Greek science? Of course there were other influences, Islam wasn't the only culture that influenced Medieval Europe, it was a major one, but.

Imagine if they had developed together. The religious thinking on both sides would have to bow to empiricism, experiment and scientific thought, unlike today perhaps. But religions always end up being about power and who's in control.

 

[Michael]

Dude, you've managed to conclude all that because I only put 3 civilizations in the list?
Arguably without the influence of Islamic science and thought, the West might not have entered its awakening when it did, it didn't wait for something else, more to the point. Ironically Christian science threw off religious shackles, at the same time Islamic science began to put them on. Who says it was all thanks to Muslims and their version of Greek science? Of course there were other influences, Islam wasn't the only culture that influenced Medieval Europe, it was a major one, but.

Imagine if they had developed together. The religious thinking on both sides would have to bow to empiricism, experiment and scientific thought, unlike today perhaps. But religions always end up being about power and who's in control.

I was thinking, when I look at Western society, I really don't see anything at all Islamic about it. Sure, I see some ideas that were from people who happened to be Muslim, take alchemy for example, but that isn't "Islamic". Like I said, Islamic Electron Theory would be stupid at best.

- Western governments are not theocratic - they are Republics. They are based on rule of majority not rule from a religious mutton-head.
- Western architecture isn't based on “Islamic” architecture it’s based on Greco-Roman. (even Mosques are based a the Roman: Oculus in the Pantheon).
- Western Banking institutions are based on Roman lending practices not Islamic ones.
- Western Art is based on Greek.
- Western Dance is not “Islamic” dance (when they allowed it).
- Western Music is not "Islamic".
- Western philosophy isn’t Islamic, it’s Greek and Roman.
etc….etc...etc....

Now Iran, yes, after the Islamic crusades and after they were conquored and lost most of their language and native religion - they are greatly influenced by Islam. Hell, they probably made half of it up themselves.

anyway, yeah, I fail to see how the three fit together. Seems more a case of wishful thinking to me.

I do agree with the rest of your post. But, as we can not have a do-over one must wonder if maybe, had Islam never been invented, perhaps we'd be 1000 years further in the future than we are? It may be Islam held back humanity. We just really don't know.

Michael

 

[disease]

Sorry, I don't think you can put aside what most historians say about the development of empirical science.
The influence of Eastern and Islamic thought is kind of hard to miss, even with a casual glance.

I don't know that anyone can manage a Hellenist outpost in Europe that withstood centuries of religious persecution. The perceived wisdom is that Islamic science preserved classical scientific ideas and influenced Christian science. Just the names of plenty of sciencey things is pretty clear evidence; Europeans simply carried on with Islamic science after getting their hands on it.

 

[(Q)]

I don't think the existance of Islamic Golden Age is in doubt, In essence it was a scientific and technological renaissance promoted by powerful leaders, maybe for their own good (medicine, astrology) but later gave a great deal to the wider scientific world. The origins have been recognised as coming from ancient Greek sources, who the Islamic scholars acknowledged and held in high esteem. That such outside esoterica was accepted within Islamic circles has to point to fairly open-minded leadership. To me this contradicts what I've understood about Islam generally.

That's because Islam had nothing to do with it as it was the Mu’tazillites of the Abbasid Kingdom who were freethinkers. Islam and the Imams eventually eroded away freethinking, slowed and stopped the progress of rational thought.

 

[John99]

*************
M*W: Good point. I've read several books written by victims of the FLDS, and steering their schools away from the sciences was commonplace... especially those schools who were taught by their own FLDS certified teachers!

OMG. not teaching chdlren the wonders of Cheese Wiz and how to make Prozak. WTF is the world coming to.

 

[disease]

Islam and the Imams eventually eroded away freethinking, slowed and stopped the progress of rational thought.

You're conflating "Islam" with the demise of "Islamic" science.
Why not conflate "Christianity" with the demise of "Christian" science as well? Or doesn't that fit your paradigm somehow?

 

[Michael]

I think the point here is there is no such thing as "Islam" Science. There were some people who may have been Muslim (or said they were) but that certainly doens't mean that the scientific discoveries they made are in any way "Islamic".

You do agree that "Islamic" Atomic Orbital Theory is stupid don't you?

Why would someone want to say "Islamic" Atomic Orbital Theory? Only if they wanted to credit Islam with the theory of Atomic Orbitals. In reality the exact opposite it true. As society becomes more religious (In this case Islamic) it actually retards social development. Arts, Maths, Science, Music all of it is retarded and some even stop and disappear.


If there was ever a Golden Age of Science in the ME, it was in spite of Islam - not due to it.


Think about this, have you ever heard of the Antikythera mechanism? It was a computer made in about 150 BC. Nothing as advanced mechanically was built until the clocks in the 17th century. IF Islam, as a philosophy, a way of life, a way of living, a way of conduction oneself, a way of viewing the world, truly promoted an enlightened mind, then it would have been Muslims that reinvented such wondrous Greek technology. I mean, DH posted that the "Islamic Golden Age" lasted about 700-800 years! The Greek Golden Age lasted, what, a 100 years or so. As it is, Muslims simply did not make the sorts of advancements 800 years of "Golden" Age should produce. It didn't even reach the technological know how of the Greeks - and counting the fact they had the Greek Texts!!!

Think about this last sentence for a minute.

Now, think what the Europeans did with said Greek Texts - look at your surroundings. Your PC, your TV, your electricity, basically everything around you.

It's clear to me that Islam, like Xianity, RETARDS progress. Any progress made by Muslims in was in spite of Islam, not due to it.

So, that's why it make no sense to write Greece--> religious superstition that retards progress --> Europe.

Agreed?
MII

 

[S.A.M.]

Have you read the work of any of these scientists?

 

[Michael]

History is History SAM.

IF Islam, as a way of life, a way of viewing reality, a way of looking at the world, truly progressed society THEN Muslims would have been able to (at the very absolute minimum) repeat in 800 years (with the benefit of Greek know how) what the Greeks were able to do in 100 years - from the ground up.

Agreed?

With this at one's disposal

You'd think the sky is the limit. As it is, it was the Europeans that made the major advances and did so quickly. AS soon as they got rid of Religion as a means of Government. That suggests RELIGION holds people back. Islam, essentially not being that far removed from Xianity, would have acted as a weight around the neck. History shows this WAS in FACT the case.



So, in summary. Islamic science is oxymoronic. Islamic Golden Age is Orwellian, the relatively few advances made in the 800 years of "Islamic" Golden Age were in spite of Islam.

Think about it - 800 YEARS! Geesh, I've seen Chinese Emperors and Greek Aristocrats make more progress in one life time!


SAM, here's a question. Do you think that the European Renaissance should be renames the "Christian Golden Age"?

 

[S.A.M.]

Is that a yes or no? Have you read the works of any of the scientists of the Islamic Age? Any one at all?

 

[Michael]

Actually I did read a few lines of al-Khwārizmī's I thought it would have been written in what was 1,2,3,4 but the words were written out long hand (which I couldn't read). I fail to see why this matters. I can not read ancient Chinese to know the Mongolian invasion didn't usher in the Shaman Golden Age and the fact there was a Chinese Golden Age has something to do with something other than Shamanism.

SO: Do you think that the European Renaissance should be renames the "Christian Golden Age"?