Islamic attitudes in the UK today

[Vienna]

Vienna you have every right to react when people are hoping to spread death and destruction. The worst thing you could do is to sit back and wait for it.

Path - I agree, But all I can do is wait, what else can I do?

 

[path]

Just make people aware of what is going on nothing more really, these people can't survive in the light of day

 

[Vienna]

Exactly the same thing can be said about Christians.

Oh is that a fact - Give examples.

 

[James R]

QQ:

James with all due respect and whilst I agree in the main, when you say that the same could be said about christians I would like some evidence that showes the existance of christian terrorist that are prepared to do wht the islamic terrorists are prepared to do.

See the crusades, for example.


Vienna:

AGAIN JAMES R - You make the mistake of comparing Christians with Muslims.

Why is that a mistake?

Like I said before - you don't live in the UK - so what do YOU know.

Like I said before, I know quite a bit, from newspapers, TV, other sources, and person contacts in the UK.

JAMES R, give me an example where Christians wish to overthrow the East, or even the West?

You are an example. You'd like to stamp out Islam, and presumably Christianise all Muslim countries.

Show examples for the UK - show some figures.

How many Muslims live in the UK? How many are advocating violence or terrorism? It is a simple calculation, which you can do for yourself.

 

[Quantum Quack]

James R

I know that you will probably refer to the dark ages etc but unlike the islamic religion christianity seems to grow in maturity and compassion and not the other way round.

your response

See the crusades, for example.

James the point I wanted to make was that Christianity made horrific mistakes in the past, just as all the world did. But unlike some other religions has grown and matured past these dark times of so many years ago.

As far as I know there have been no acts of terrorism claiming to be God inspired for decades if not centuries. There hasn't been the cry of kill as being God's will for a long time. ( by Christians )

 

[path]

QQ:



See the crusades, for example.

You know where the original request for a military expedition (which turned into the first crusade) came from and why right? There may be examples but the crusades aren't it.

 

[Quantum Quack]

any way.....time proximity makes it irrelevant to todays situation

 

[Vienna]

How many Muslims live in the UK? How many are advocating violence or terrorism? It is a simple calculation, which you can do for yourself.

Really?? .....I have no idea how to make that calculation, maybe you can do it for me..

How can you believe the Muslim who says he/she does not support terrorism when Islamic teachings support terrorism?

When you see Muslims, how would you determine whether they have the potential to be or, are, Islamic terrorists. How do you tell the difference?

Whats the secret formula James?

 

[leda]

Just for the record - England invaded Ireland at some point a few hundred years ago. Protestants from England were given land in N. Ireland. This meant the Protestants had all the money and the Catholics were penniless. Religious wars are usually about money and power. Flick forward a few centuries, and you're left with a near impossible situation. Catholics in the English made country of N. Ireland are getting a shitty deal, but the Protestants are actually in the majority, and their families have lived there for hundreds of years too. The Protestants are as Irish as the Catholics, and they don't want to be part of Ireland, they want to be part of Britain.
At this point, we have the I.R.A. bombing innocent civilians in England. We also have the British government being 'tough on terrorism' and putting an armed force into N.I which then commits all kind of atrocities and adds to the terrorism.
Cut again to the present. The British government of the 80's have had secret meetings with terrorists, have begun a dialogue, and have basically done their best to sort out a problem they inherited from some monarch centuries before.
My point is only this, that plenty of Americans are quite happy to fund terrorists when they have sympathy with them. The people in the shopping centre in Manchester were as innocent as those in the twin towers, or in Madrid. The people of England would have loved to have given N.I. back to the Irish, it was the people from N.I. who didn't want to go!
What we are seeing with this new terrorism scare is a massive load of propaganda. That chemical weapon arrest, where two people had made some crappy little plan about using a chemical that might make your eyes water if you were in a toilet cubicle with it, was just scare mongering.
There have always been terrorist threats from different sources. Whether its Irish separatists, or crazy muslims (as opposed to the sane ones) or Christian maniacs bombing abortion clinics or whatever. To think that we're near some kind of terrorist armageddon is to fall for the media hype. What the world needs now is for people to be calm and rational, not to run around like mad chickens seeing foxes in shadows.

 

[Quantum Quack]

What the world needs now is for people to be calm and rational, not to run around like mad chickens seeing foxes in shadows

.
here here.......paranoir is our greatest enemy

 

[Vienna]

Just for the record - England invaded Ireland at some point a few hundred years ago. Protestants from England were given land in N. Ireland. This meant the Protestants had all the money and the Catholics were penniless. Religious wars are usually about money and power. Flick forward a few centuries, and you're left with a near impossible situation. Catholics in the English made country of N. Ireland are getting a shitty deal, but the Protestants are actually in the majority, and their families have lived there for hundreds of years too. The Protestants are as Irish as the Catholics, and they don't want to be part of Ireland, they want to be part of Britain.
At this point, we have the I.R.A. bombing innocent civilians in England. We also have the British government being 'tough on terrorism' and putting an armed force into N.I which then commits all kind of atrocities and adds to the terrorism.
Cut again to the present. The British government of the 80's have had secret meetings with terrorists, have begun a dialogue, and have basically done their best to sort out a problem they inherited from some monarch centuries before.
My point is only this, that plenty of Americans are quite happy to fund terrorists when they have sympathy with them. The people in the shopping centre in Manchester were as innocent as those in the twin towers, or in Madrid. The people of England would have loved to have given N.I. back to the Irish, it was the people from N.I. who didn't want to go!
What we are seeing with this new terrorism scare is a massive load of propaganda. That chemical weapon arrest, where two people had made some crappy little plan about using a chemical that might make your eyes water if you were in a toilet cubicle with it, was just scare mongering.
There have always been terrorist threats from different sources. Whether its Irish separatists, or crazy muslims (as opposed to the sane ones) or Christian maniacs bombing abortion clinics or whatever. To think that we're near some kind of terrorist armageddon is to fall for the media hype. What the world needs now is for people to be calm and rational, not to run around like mad chickens seeing foxes in shadows.

I'm not going to even point out the number of errors in your statement, however even with corrections you would still pursue your senseless argument.

To sum your post up - Bullshit and full of errors.

 

[leda]

Good point, well made.

 

[Xev]

Vienna:

As I have pointed out before that the attitudes of muslims in the UK are intolerable. It may be different story in the country where you live, you might be able to get along fine with muslims. But in the UK it is a different story - here is a report that gives an example of the exact muslim attitudes which I am talking about, and these attitudes aren't exclusive to the fanatical muslims in UK.

This sort of thing is to be expected, and - not to blame the victim, but the Brits brought this upon themselves by allowing these people to enter their country in the first place.

The UK has never been an Islamic nation. It has not a Muslim history and not a Muslim culture. When Muslims enter such a profoundly different culture, they feel alien and become hostile to the very soul of the UK. They exploit that culture (i.e, by abusing its welfare system) and attempt to directly attack it (i.e by the attitudes mentioned in that article)

There is nothing shocking about this - it is human nature. Unfortunately, it will probably take time (and suicide bombings) for the Britons to realize what they have allowed into their country, and decide to expel it.

 

[leda]

I live in the U.K. in a predominantly Muslim area (70%ish). I see none of the problems mentioned in this thread and believe that fundamentalism is disproportionately displayed by the media. The main problem we have in my area is poverty, not terrorism. Of course some young Muslims act badly. They feel threatened. They feel that even though they were born here, they are not wanted by the majority of the population. Having read some of the posts here, I am entirely unsurprised. Sadly, people love all these stories of impending doom and disaster, and so the self-perpetuating media circus rolls into town. I suggest if people are concerned about Muslims in Britain they should make some effort to reach out to them as a group and thereby lessen Muslim feelings of isolation. Surely it is perfectly obvious that intolerance breeds intolerance?

 

[Vienna]

This sort of thing is to be expected, and - not to blame the victim, but the Brits brought this upon themselves by allowing these people to enter their country in the first place.

The UK has never been an Islamic nation. It has not a Muslim history and not a Muslim culture. When Muslims enter such a profoundly different culture, they feel alien and become hostile to the very soul of the UK. They exploit that culture (i.e, by abusing its welfare system) and attempt to directly attack it (i.e by the attitudes mentioned in that article)

There is nothing shocking about this - it is human nature. Unfortunately, it will probably take time (and suicide bombings) for the Britons to realize what they have allowed into their country, and decide to expel it.

You are spot on Xev.

Apart from the bit where you say the Brits have brought this upon ourselves - we did not. The British government allowed these people to come in duing the 50's and 60's so they could exploit them in cheap employment - which they did. But the British public never wanted those people here, we made it clear from the start, there was so much bigotry in the sixties it was unbelievable these people didn't take the hint.

In a strange sort of way I will be relieved when the UK gets hit by the Islamics, because that will be the very call for Britain to wake up. It will be the kick up the arse for Britain - and believe me - it needs it.

 

[leda]

So exactly why do you hate my next door neighbours? If there is a terrorist attack on Britain, I cannot see how it will connect to them. Are you aware of some plot they are involved in? Obviously, I don't have them under 24 hour surveillance. They could be secret agents, I suppose. Strange, they seem so nice.

 

[Vienna]

I live in the U.K. in a predominantly Muslim area (70%ish). I see none of the problems mentioned in this thread

Perhaps you don't hear these things discussed but it is happening

On a lesser degree how about Muslim children condemning the way you dress???

Because muslim women in Britain haven't had a women's liberation, my female friends and I have had stones thrown at us for drinking in our garden, and been called abusive sexual names for wearing sun vests by local boys. I have no problem at all with muslim women choosing to cover whichever parts of their body they wish, but teaching children that this is the way for decent women to behave is simultaneously teaching them that I am NOT decent, and results in the kind of behaviour above. This, I have a problem with. I am no longer able to sit outside in light clothes in the hot weather, and personally feel very restricted by this. What a very liberal and enlightened community I am living in!

so - Where does it stop???

and believe that fundamentalism is disproportionately displayed by the media.

I see, you would rather turn a blind eye to it all, pretend it doesn't exist - Wake up lady...

Of course some young Muslims act badly. They feel threatened. They feel that even though they were born here, they are not wanted by the majority of the population.

And why do you think this is?

Sadly, people love all these stories of impending doom and disaster, and so the self-perpetuating media circus rolls into town. I suggest if people are concerned about Muslims in Britain they should make some effort to reach out to them as a group and thereby lessen Muslim feelings of isolation. Surely it is perfectly obvious that intolerance breeds intolerance?

Muslims are the most intolerant group of people I have ever met - Hardly surprising when Islam is the most intolerant religion in the world

Muslims choose to live in ghettos, they flock together, there are hundreds of muslim organisations in UK. They unite, and keep others out.

And you want the people of this country to reach out to them - they don't want it, they don't want reaching out to. They want this country, not its people.

 

[leda]

Yes, I've had problems with sexism in the area. I think some Muslims have a poor attitude towards women, more so than amongst non-Muslims. True. But the reason I have encountered these things is because I live amongst these people and have worked among them. I have also been invited in by my neighbours when locked out and have had my cats fed by them. To say that Muslim people choose to live in ghettos is ridiculous. I live in a large, modern ex-council flat 5 mins away from the city centre. How can I afford to live there? Because its a Muslim area. It's the bigots like you who make the ghettos, not the people who live in them.
Do you actually know any Muslims, or are all your attitudes based on what you hear in the media?

 

[Lemming3k]

The British government allowed these people to come in duing the 50's and 60's so they could exploit them in cheap employment

It wasnt just muslims they allowed, it was italians, south americans, africans, israelis, anybody they could exploit, thats why we are so multi-cultural, and almost half the people i've met are not originally british, i've had no problems with any of them, i think leda is right the media has blown things out of proportion, i cant understand why people are so bothered about people from other cultures living and working in britain(so long as they are working and not sponging), i doubt we will get rid of them since most are now born in britain and consider themselves british.
Vienna do you propose we remove all people of african dissent aswel? Or hindus? Where do you draw the line? When you have different races in a country and people that feel the same as you do then you are bound to have trouble.

 

[Vienna]

So exactly why do you hate my next door neighbours? If there is a terrorist attack on Britain, I cannot see how it will connect to them. Are you aware of some plot they are involved in? Obviously, I don't have them under 24 hour surveillance. They could be secret agents, I suppose. Strange, they seem so nice.

You say "they seem so nice".

Funny that - because, that is exactly how terrorists have been described...

Ten arrested as anti-terror police stage dawn raids

All those arrested are alleged to have links with extreme Islamic groups. The arrests were made under the Terrorism Act 2000 and are being held on suspicion of the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism.

A neighbour said of those people arrested

Imad Alsabbagh, proprietor of the neighbouring Petra restaurant, which serves Syrian food, said he knew the men as neighbours to say hello to. "They were nice people and hard workers," he said.