I doubt they are thinking of the Ummah, more likely the family members they buried.
Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread
- Thread starter kks
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I doubt they are thinking of the Ummah, more likely the family members they buried.
ok so why kill the poeple whop are there mates in mosques
why not blow up an army base, or at least fuckin try tooo
It depends on who they are aiming for. Maybe its a Taliban member, maybe a Karzai collaborator. 20 years of war can blur rationality.
i did actually say that before , bu why take out 50 people to get one or 2 collaborators!!
Surely attack the presidential car, or army base or a poltical/militray target
why a mosque for fucks sack..
look how thinsg are seen!!
no wodner people like maximus and the like dont take us seriously...
the west lays the traps and we fall into them!!!
excellent stuff......
Ok so how do we stop people acting this way even when uder provokation??
i did actually say that before , bu why take out 50 people to get one or 2 collaborators!!
Surely attack the presidential car, or army base or a poltical/militray target
why a mosque for fucks sack..
look how thinsg are seen!!
no wodner people like maximus and the like dont take us seriously...
the west lays the traps and we fall into them!!!
excellent stuff......
Ok so how do we stop people acting this way even when uder provokation??
Its easy to be rational when you're safe. I think the US/NATO should pull out and give Iran or some other country which Afghanis see as sympathetic to their cause, the responsibility for bringing them around.
NATO and the US are clearly most incompetent in this regard.
that could work, worht a try as clearly the US and nato ect have failed in whatever they wanted to acheive...
apparently they are going to re-win the war they have won, or was that Iraq???...
Just more of your never-ending bullshit excuses for Muslim violence, murder and mayhem. The US/UN pulls into Afghanistan, so the militant Muslims go running off to blow up a bunch of Muslims in a mosque.
Now tell me, SAM, how can you possibly not see how completely and totally irrational that is? And then to excuse it by claiming that it's irrational is the height of total ignorance!
Baron Max
BUT Maximus,
is the US / nato plan on afgahnistan working???
i coudlnt tell you cos i actually forgotten what the objectives were meant to be??
Of course not, Zak! But it's only because the politicians won't let the military fight a war. They expect the military to play powder-puff games instead of win the war.
It's all just politics, Zak, it's not war not matter what you've been told or read. War is what we did in World War II. Afghanistan is just like little games of war where we're not allowed to hurt anyone ...or if we do, we're chastized for it and told not to do that again.
We need to win "hearts n' minds" like we did in World War II ...bomb, shell, shoot, kill, destroy, ...until everyone finally surrenders and becomes docile and peaceful.
Baron Max
If you think killing for peace is the right way to fight, why get surprised when those you target agree with you?
and then what???????
the soviets tred to blow the shit out of afghanistan in the 80's, and they wouldnt have given a shit about anything, so i doubt they were that hampered.. the thing with afghanistan is there aint shit to blow up anyway..... also the taleban/Alqueda will just melt away into pakistan and then you will have to blow the shit out of Pakistan too
anyway what was the objectives for the afghan invasion???
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
Zak, SAM. There is a very simple solution to this. I think SAM has touched it in her post.
Those bombers who bombed the masjid in Pakistan are not part of an elusive alkaeda or the Taliban. They are agents working for someone other party. Alkaeda has absolutely no relevance to Muslim affairs, neither Pakistan nor Afghanistan, and they never did. The Taliban have already denounced this attack as against Islam and criticized the targeting of civilians in war, except collaborators. We can all agree that whoever bombed these civilian can not be referred to as a Muslim, as Islam specifically prohibits the attack of churches, synagogues, and temples, so now what of mosques? We don't know who killed these innocent worshipers, but we know they can never be Muslim, either in the eyes of Allah swt or the world's Muslims. The are only Muslims in the eyes of the Western propaganda machine which is attempting to convince us that our way of life is inferior to theirs. Do not fall into this trap, don't forget there are legitimate resistance groups in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kashmir, Gaza, Chechnya, and Somalia who target only soldiers, and never target civilians. Those are the true Muslims and will forever remain true to the freedom of our people form colonial rule. These people who kill Muslims are criminals, thugs, agents of the enemy, and furthermore Islam is devoid of them and they are devoid of Islam (they are disbelievers). The Jannat (paradise), they will never smell even a little of it. They are the ones who attempt to divide us among ourselves.
Pakistani people have made a resolve that they will not be deceived into fighting their brothers in Afghanistan, even if similar attack continue, or if hundreds or thousand times these attacks continue, this is a tactic of the enemy to divide us. We cannot fall so easily, the mujahideen of Afghanistan cannot be tarnished by these cowardly attacks. They are in the front lines fighting for the future of our people, we will never abandon them. The Pakistani people are with those who fight for their freedom, and indeed, the freedom of all Muslims from colonization and occupation of our enemies.
Surat Ale' Imran 3:103. And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah.s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.
104. Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.
105. Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs: For them is a dreadful penalty,-
106. On the Day when some faces will be (lit up with) white, and some faces will be (in the gloom of) black: To those whose faces will be black, (will be said): "Did ye reject Faith after accepting it? Taste then the penalty for rejecting Faith."
107. But those whose faces will be (lit with) white,- they will be in (the light of) Allah.s mercy: therein to dwell (for ever).
108. These are the Signs of Allah. We rehearse them to thee in Truth: And Allah means no injustice to any of His creatures.
109. To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: To Him do all questions go back (for decision).
Those bombers who bombed the masjid in Pakistan are not part of an elusive alkaeda or the Taliban. They are agents working for someone other party. Alkaeda has absolutely no relevance to Muslim affairs, neither Pakistan nor Afghanistan, and they never did. The Taliban have already denounced this attack as against Islam and criticized the targeting of civilians in war, except collaborators. We can all agree that whoever bombed these civilian can not be referred to as a Muslim, as Islam specifically prohibits the attack of churches, synagogues, and temples, so now what of mosques? We don't know who killed these innocent worshipers, but we know they can never be Muslim, either in the eyes of Allah swt or the world's Muslims. The are only Muslims in the eyes of the Western propaganda machine which is attempting to convince us that our way of life is inferior to theirs. Do not fall into this trap, don't forget there are legitimate resistance groups in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kashmir, Gaza, Chechnya, and Somalia who target only soldiers, and never target civilians. Those are the true Muslims and will forever remain true to the freedom of our people form colonial rule. These people who kill Muslims are criminals, thugs, agents of the enemy, and furthermore Islam is devoid of them and they are devoid of Islam (they are disbelievers). The Jannat (paradise), they will never smell even a little of it. They are the ones who attempt to divide us among ourselves.
Pakistani people have made a resolve that they will not be deceived into fighting their brothers in Afghanistan, even if similar attack continue, or if hundreds or thousand times these attacks continue, this is a tactic of the enemy to divide us. We cannot fall so easily, the mujahideen of Afghanistan cannot be tarnished by these cowardly attacks. They are in the front lines fighting for the future of our people, we will never abandon them. The Pakistani people are with those who fight for their freedom, and indeed, the freedom of all Muslims from colonization and occupation of our enemies.
Surat Ale' Imran 3:103. And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah.s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.
104. Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.
105. Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs: For them is a dreadful penalty,-
106. On the Day when some faces will be (lit up with) white, and some faces will be (in the gloom of) black: To those whose faces will be black, (will be said): "Did ye reject Faith after accepting it? Taste then the penalty for rejecting Faith."
107. But those whose faces will be (lit with) white,- they will be in (the light of) Allah.s mercy: therein to dwell (for ever).
108. These are the Signs of Allah. We rehearse them to thee in Truth: And Allah means no injustice to any of His creatures.
109. To Allah belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: To Him do all questions go back (for decision).
If more Muslims would speak out like that, the west nor anyone else would fault Muslims for the senseless violence. But, DH, look right here on this site, look at the number of people, Muslim or not, who attempt to excuse or justify that kind of violence by citing someone else's violence in the past.
DH, you and Zak are very few Muslims that I've heard or read that openly criticize the radical Muslim violence that seems to occur every day somewhere in the world. Even SAM's constant blame of the USA is not excuse for Muslims blowing up a mosque and killing innocent Muslims (or anyone else).
No, DH, I think you're wrong. I don't think there's a "propaganda machine" at work anywhere in the west. The news reports "Muslim Terrorists Blow up....". They don't present that as propaganda, DH, those are simple facts. I honestly know of few, if any, people of the west who actually consider all Muslims as bad or as terrorists - that simply is not true.
But, DH, it sure would help if more people like you were to come forth and condemn such attacks, and be forthright about it. Not like SAM who constantly attempts to justify the attacks by something the USA did decades ago! There is no excuse or reason for it ...no matter what the USA did to Japan or any other nation in the past.
I and many other westerners have nothing but respect for true and honest resistance fighters ...it's part of our own heritage and culture! But even you, DH, must admit that those gallant fighters are constantly overshadowed by the horrific deeds of those "non-Muslim Muslims" who kill innocent civilians in the name of Allah or whatever.
I say again ......the world needs more people like you and Zak who are Muslim and who are willing to speak out against the senseless violence done by "Muslims" against Muslims. By not speaking out, or with people like SAM trying to justify the violence, it creates a tense atmosphere of distrust and dislike, leading ultimately to the thought that all or most Muslims try to justify those violent acts.
Baron Max
Yeah, like Americans actually think before invading any country.
God help us if this is what thinking produces, the only consolation one can have is that this is the result of ignorance and there is some hope they will start thinking at some point in time.
But if their carnage is the product of thought, then we are all victims of their ineptitude. No cure for stupidity.
God help us if this is what thinking produces, the only consolation one can have is that this is the result of ignorance and there is some hope they will start thinking at some point in time.
But if their carnage is the product of thought, then we are all victims of their ineptitude. No cure for stupidity.
Yeah, like Americans actually think before invading any country.
God help us if this is what thinking produces, the only consolation one can have is that this is the result of ignorance and there is some hope they will start thinking at some point in time.
But if their carnage is the product of thought, then we are all victims of their ineptitude. No cure for stupidity.
See? In a backhand sort of way, all you're doing is attempting to justify the horrific terrorism by misdirecting the viewpoint towards others/the USA.
Two wrongs don't make a right, SAM. Vengeance is never justified because no matter what happens, it can't undo the original crime.
Baron Max
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
Right, like highlighting the incapability of peace between Sunnis and Shias in Iraq after the US invasion, blaming it solely on Islam and ignoring the arming of these Shia groups by US army to combat Sunni resistance fighters fighting the US.
I have always condemned murder of civilians, yet it has always been willfully ignored. Western Muslim organizations have also condemned violence against civilians since 2001, why are the Western media ignoring this?
I condemn this violence, and I don't believe radical Muslims are behind it, but criminals who are out of the folds of any religion. By using the adjective Muslim or Islamic, this is a propaganda to vilify all Muslims. We extremely detest this. Those who kill innocent human beings, whether in bombing raids of Iraqi, Afghani, Palestinian civilians, or unknown assailants to kill Iraqis and Afghanis, they are the enemies of humanity. I believe the two are connected, there was no suicide bombing in Iraq, Afghanistan before the Americans came, why?
SAM agrees with exactly what I am saying, what all Muslims have been saying for 8 years. Islam opposes the killing of innocents. Those who kill innocents are not part of our civilization or religion, furthermore to link them to the legitimate Iraqi and Afghani resistance is a dishonest attempt to tarnish the legitimate resistance of these people against occupiers.
Just the majority of us? Neither Islam nor Muslims condone the killing of civilians. I have stated this numerous times on this forum, and yet I am always made to look as if I support this. There is a propaganda machine at work to tarnish the legitimate resistance in Afghanistan and Iraq, there is no doubt about this. The problem is differentiating it from the mass media, which is controlled by US interests. Truth and falsehood are blurred to a large degree by this propaganda. This machine is blinding the people of the West of the legitimate demands of the resistance in Afghanistan and Iraq, and indeed in the whole Muslim world. Why the West fears our independence and our governing by the laws we choose for ourselves reveals this.
I have always been forthright, I have never hidden my views from anyone. I am a Muslim, it is the definition of a Muslim to be honest and to strive against injustice wherever it may arise. Sadly, the propaganda machine has made Muslims its victims in this age, our words are not respected, our demands for freedom are scoffed, and our religion is dragged in the mud to such a degree that most Westerners don't know the ABC of Islam.
SAM never stated anything to justify these attacks. This is merely conjecture and demonization on your part. Ask her in a straightforward manner and you will get the answer.
Regarding the US, SAM is completely right. The US is main obstacle in the path to Muslim self-determination. We have not forced the US to occupy our lands and brutalize our people, it has done this of its own accord. Therefore, any and all resistance against foreign occupational armies of the US or any power in the Muslim world must be met with legitimate and untarnished resistance, with the purpose of convincing the American war machine to respect the sovereignty and independence of the Muslim world.
Indeed, we as a people have great admiration for the Western resistance fighters of the past, of Willian Wallace of Scotland, Toussaint L'Overture of Haiti, Simon Bolivar of the Americas. As we respect your independence and culture, and we do respect you, of this there is no doubt, yet the West must also respect us. This is all we truly ask, respect us and our religion, and let us govern by our laws, we will have complete and total peace, we may even be the greatest of allies. Don't forget, it was the Muslims of the Middle East, namely Sultan Qutuz and Baybars al-Russi who defeated the Mongol horde in the first time in history at Ain Jaloot (Eyes of Goliath). Don't forget, we saved all of civilization form the onslaught of the Mongolians, indeed perhaps history itself. Don't also forget the Moors of Spain (Andalusia) were the tutors of the Renaissance artists and created a great civilization which guided Europe for centuries. The problem is the West has left its humility and has embraced a vision in which they are superior, and others are not equal, but inferior. We respect your civilization, that is not the issue. The issue are the armies in our lands. As Red Cloud and the Sioux fought for their freedom against the swarming of American settlers into their lands, even at the cost of their lives, so too will we fight for our independence. Living as livestock or tamed beasts is not in our nature.
In the Western narrative, yes. In the Muslim narrative, not in the least. the true resistance fighters have remained in our history for thousands of years, fighting against the encroachment of foreigners on our land. These criminals have only appeared after the fall of Iraq, as recent as 2003. If you think 6 years is enough to judge the history of Islam's time on this Earth, you may do so, but yet this denies the greatness of our history and long heritage. We don't think these people belong to our civilization because they kill our people and tarnish the legitimate resistance. they are traitors to us, we are divorced from them. Those who we consider as an inseparable part of us are those resistance groups in Afghanistan and Iraq fighting the US army as gallant warrior, the pride of all Muslims. We love them and we will never disavow them, ever.
They are not Muslim, therefore it is not Muslim against Muslims. It is those who cherish their freedom and independence against the West occupiers and their stooges who kill our people in these bomb attacks. Muslims are defined by Islam and the way of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), war is against soldiers, not civilians, especially one's own people. Those who kill their own people work for the enemy, the Western occupiers, and not the resistance.
SAM has never supported these attacks from my knowledge. She can speak for herself, so I suggest you ask her with the same civility in which you sent this post to me where she stands.
We don't dislike American way of life, we dislike the occupation of our lands. Why is this so hard to understand? We dislike the bombing of our villages, the kidnapping of our women, the murder of our schoolchildren. If a foreign power invaded your lands, I think you would also pick up the rifle and fight for your freedom and for the security of your family. There is very little difference between us human beings, but yet the reality remains your armies have invaded and occupied our lands, therefore we will resist. We will resist until you leave our lands, and until you can no longer threaten us. We will resist until the last of your soldiers flee from our lands. We have taken up our arms, the time for understanding is over. The only understanding we have is that if you are in our lands, we will resist. If you withdraw, then we may be in peace.
May God judge between us on the Final Day to which of us was correct and which of us erred. God give victory to the resistance.
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So, like little kids, you try to shift the blame for your own faults onto others.
I would also point out that your statement basically says that the people of Iraq are so stupid that they're willing to kill their fellow countrymen and Muslims just because the USA puts a weapon in their hands.
Do you really think so little of the intelligence of the Iraqi people???
Baron Max
Without the pain and suffering that many suffered, would we be so advanced in our medicine? In our understanding of how the human body works? Fact of the matter that it is exactly pain an suffering that is the driving force behind evolution. If all fish had all the food they ever needed and there was no hunting going on, would be where we are right now? Or would we still be swimming around in the water, content with our life where we dont need to improve anything to get food or stay alive?
It is also the natural reaction to pain and suffering. If it wasnt for the people that are being oppressed to decry their oppression at the hands of another group of people, the only thing that would happen would be their extinction without any other progress being made. It would be, as Baron or Roman continously keeps saying: "Lie there and take it". If there would be no natural reaction to oppression we would not have the sharp insight and commentary on society of Malcolm X or the inspiring speeches of Dr King. Their contribution, and there were many more, to the civil rights movements made sure that we made progress in how we deal with people that are different than us, sociology and how to change our society for the better and guard us for the future. An incredibly important contribution and it stemmed from pain and suffering, that was ultimately ended excatly because of the reaction to that pain and suffering.
There are various types of evidence for God and some form of design. This black and white way of looking at things tells us much more about the minds of certain atheists. You would be surprised to know that Islam does support evolution, but not "blind, chaotic evolution". Alas, thats another debate.
Oh? Youve watched End of Days too many times
So when my friends father was being buried, the priest didnt say that all things happens because of God? Or when another friend failed his exams, he didnt say it was because of God and studied harder for next time and indeed came out better than he ever could? Or the numerous other times I've seen theists ascribe everything that happens, good and bad, to God? This tired old argument is total BS, once again. Fact of the matter is that the vast majority of theists seem to ascribe good and bad things happening to God, while atheists only seem to come out and ascribe things to God when something bad happens, as to mock the theist.Well, I was watching a couple of documentaries on the universe and black holes and supernovas on Nat Geo. What I noticed was how the narrator kept repeating that everywhere in space, in the universe, it was destruction that created. Destruction creating unspeakable beauty. And then, it was a documentary where they were tracing the light of the stars and so going back in time, we came to the Big Bang and what he said there was incredible, the whole documentary was incredible mind you, it was all so beautiful, but that part was outstanding. The single most devestating and destructive event ever he called it, the Big Bang, and what followed was the creation of everything we see now.
Ofcourse, the fact that you havent been able to point out what is myth and superstition in my very short summary doesnt say anything. Nah, just go back into your white and black world where everythings cozy