Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[Baron Max]

I do not consider the acts of terrorists in killing innocent people in Afghanistan and Iraq as Jihad. Nor Does any other muslim I know. ....

I didn't ask anything about "jihad", whatever that is - and I don't care. What I did ask was:

So why are Muslims killing so many other Muslims? Oppression, tyranny?

We hear of suicide bombings in marketplaces all the time, with Muslim civiians, women and children, as the obvious target. What's with that if Muslims are supposed to help the weak?

And surely you'll note that, while you distinctly said "Nor does any other Muslim I know", it's obvious that some Muslims do kill other Muslims. Just yesterday, a Muslim suicide bomber blew himself up in a mosque ...killing some 48 Muslims who were praying. Nice, huh?

Please answer the questions.

Baron Max

 

[chuuush]

I didn't ask anything about "jihad", whatever that is - and I don't care. What I did ask was:

So why are Muslims killing so many other Muslims? Oppression, tyranny?

We hear of suicide bombings in marketplaces all the time, with Muslim civiians, women and children, as the obvious target. What's with that if Muslims are supposed to help the weak?

And surely you'll note that, while you distinctly said "Nor does any other Muslim I know", it's obvious that some Muslims do kill other Muslims. Just yesterday, a Muslim suicide bomber blew himself up in a mosque ...killing some 48 Muslims who were praying. Nice, huh?

Please answer the questions.

Baron Max

The ANSWER: think why Hitler killed so many people, why the US nuked hiroshima unproportionately, why the Israeli soldiers kill innocent Gazan women and children in cold blood, why Serbs commited horrendous crimes against the msulims in bosnia, etc., etc. and you'll have the answer to your question.

 

[Baron Max]

The ANSWER: think why Hitler killed so many people,...

He was a madman, crazy!

...why the US nuked hiroshima unproportionately,...

It was a declared World War.

...why the Israeli soldiers kill innocent Gazan women and children in cold blood, ...

They didn't.

...why Serbs commited horrendous crimes against the msulims in bosnia, etc., etc.

They're criminals in the eyes of almost everyone on Earth, and the UN and the US have done as much as possible to stop it.

... and you'll have the answer to your question.

Nope, didn't answer the question at all.

Your examples are seemingly implying that other wrongs in the world make it okay for Muslims to do the same. Surely you don't believe that, do you?

So, ....let's try it again, shall we? Answer the following questions:

So why are Muslims killing so many other Muslims?

We hear of suicide bombings in marketplaces all the time, with Muslim civiians, women and children, as the obvious target. What's with that if Muslims are supposed to help the weak?

And surely you'll note that, while you distinctly said "Nor does any other Muslim I know", it's obvious that some Muslims do kill other Muslims. Just yesterday, a Muslim suicide bomber blew himself up in a mosque ...killing some 48 Muslims who were praying. Nice, huh?

Please answer the questions about your beloved Muslims.

Baron Max

 

[Zakariya04]

So why are Muslims killing so many other Muslims?



Baron Max

THAT'S EASY maximus

cos those so called muslims and their masters have shit in their brains for want of a better expression

also they are fuckin deluded and cant seem to undertsand that indiscriminate violence wont really help their cause.
how on earth their indiscriminate murder will win any struggle is beyond me, be it Muslim or non muslim..
these guys are the cancer infesting my religion, and unforunately i am living in a time when they are doing such wicked acts..... I find it indefensible!!

 

[Baron Max]

...also they are fuckin deluded and cant seem to undertsand that indiscriminate violence wont really help their cause.
how on earth their indiscriminate murder will win any struggle is beyond me, be it Muslim or non muslim..
these guys are the cancer infesting my religion, and unforunately i am living in a time when they are doing such wicked acts..... I find it indefensible!!

And yet, haven't you noticed the number of posts here that defend (or seem to defend) such horrific acts of murder and carnage?

If there were more Muslims like you, Zak, perhaps we could all get over this idealogical hump we all seem to be facing. One of the things that's most difficult for the civilized world to accept is that it seems, just like here at sciforums, that Muslims are actually defending those horrific acts. That, of course, puts all Muslims in the crosshairs!

If Muslims of the world want to be taken seriously as a valid, peaceful religion, then they should all come out, as you have, and condemn such violence. And damned sure NOT defend it or excuse it openly in public!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

If people could not see how the US was destroying country after country after country by destabilising them politically or supporting dictators or funding and arming extremists; if people could not see how stable societies had been transformed into damaged people exposed to horrific and extraordinary violence to feed western hubris, perhaps then they would be taken in by your self righteous and entirely misplaced indignation.

All their muddling has done is made things worse for the common man

U.S. intelligence suggests that violence in Afghanistan will rise through 2009 despite the Obama administration's new strategy for combatting the Taliban and shoring up the Afghan government, a top intelligence official said Friday.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h8j4FNdCsahhsaYlNVjGptabit4QD976M1VG0

SCORES of people have died in bombings and air strikes across Pakistan in 24 hours of violence that underlines what US President Barack Obama said was an urgent need for a new strategy.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/pakistan-violence-underlines-need-for-obama-to-act-20090328-9etz.html

More instability, poverty, violence and destruction

 

[Zakariya04]

so sam what you are saying is that cos the Us and the west etc sets the enviornment, then we just cant help but to lower ourselves!!! and kill people in mosques..

how si the killing of people in mosques going to help any cause!!??

 

[S.A.M.]

so sam what you are saying is that cos the Us and the west etc sets the enviornment, then we just cant help but to lower ourselves!!! and kill people in mosques..

how si the killing of people in mosques going to help any cause!!??

No, I'm saying if someone moves a bunch of thugs in your neighborhood and unloads billions of dollars of arms on them, it would not be surprising if you formed a gang to protect your family from them. And if many in your gang lost families to these thugs, you may find that there will be very little to differentiate one gang from the other over time. Afghanistan has been fucked since 20 years. These are the children of that fuck up.

The longer the Americans stay there, the more they will fuck it up. Because they are incapable of handling the situation and think sending drones to kill children is the right way to address the problems. Either that or this helps their military industrial complex and helps with the unemployment problem in their country

 

[Baron Max]

If people could not see how the US was destroying country after country after country by destabilising them politically or supporting dictators or funding and arming extremists; if people could not see how stable societies had been transformed into damaged people exposed to horrific and extraordinary violence to feed western hubris, perhaps then they would be taken in by your self righteous and entirely misplaced indignation.

So, ...the USA caused those peaceful, loving, compassionate Muslims to blow up the mosque and kill all those other Muslims in Pakistan?

SAM, don't you see what you're saying? Don't you see what you're implying? ...that the Muslims in those countries can't control their own actions, and you and others refuse to make them responsible for their actions. "It's all the fault of the USA!" is a slogan, SAM, a pitiful testiment to the weakness of those people.

"The bully made me kill all those people!" .....that's hardly an excuse or reason to kill innocent people, SAM. You use that excuse continually, yet it says more about the weakness of the Muslims than it does about the USA.

Baron Max

 

[(Q)]

On pain and suffering? In short, in my opinion, it is all part of life. Without destruction, pain and suffering, there would be no life. Without any pain and or suffering, there would be no need to evolve, no need to get bettter in any kind of way and we would all be stuck where we were before, because everyone would have everything they needed and nothing else was necessary. Pain and suffering are crucial for the evolution of life. Religious people can see pain and suffering as part of the design of life and how it moves forward.

That would contradict a number of things, especially the claim that Islam is a religion of peace, for one. It is self-contradicting because you claim design and evolution, but that is most likely because you don't appear to know much of evolution. People do "get better" without pain and suffering by using reason, rationale and their brains, they rise above the base and the ignorance, to alleviate pain and suffering.

But, if you claim destruction, pain and suffering are a requirement of life, why do Muslims complain so much about being oppressed? They should be reveling in their misery.

Non-religious people can see pain and suffering as some random chaotic event with no design whatsoever:

Of course, there is no evidence whatsoever for design. Complex things start from simple beginnings and "appear" designed. The theist is foolish in his ignorance to assume design for lack of using reason, rationale and their brains.

in the end, everyone can see it in their own way.

The correct way and the wrong way.

This tendency by non-religious people to crop up when something bad happens then blame it on God is incredibly dishonest considering their denial of God in the first place, yet, you wont see them talkin about God when something good happens.

More contradictions. You most certainly see the theist praising his god whenever anything good happens, but railing at something else, like the nature of man or Satan or [insert favorite imp or demon] whenever anything bad happens. Hilarious, really.

The atheist is simply questioning the claims of the theist when he babbles on about how his god created and controls everything, yet can't be held responsible when anything goes awry. It's laughable.

The single greatest and most destructive event ever? The Big Bang. And what was the result of this destructive event? We all know.

How do you figure the BB was a "destructive" event? It was anything but that.

That, in a very short summary, is my opinion.

Have you seriously never read anything what a religious person has to say on this point?

Yes, I've read many, right here on this forum in fact. Of course, it's almost impossible to take seriously considering religious people use myth and superstitions to support other myths and superstitions. In fact, you're opinion on this matter is no different. A rather weak effort, in my opinion. Much of it is silly in the extreme.

 

[Baron Max]

No, I'm saying if someone moves a bunch of thugs in your neighborhood and unloads billions of dollars of arms on them, it would not be surprising if you formed a gang to protect your family from them.

Protecting your family means going into a mosque while Muslims are praying and blowing yourself up, killing some 50 peaceful, innocent Muslims?

Baron Max

 

[Zakariya04]

No, I'm saying if someone moves a bunch of thugs in your neighborhood and unloads billions of dollars of arms on them, it would not be surprising if you formed a gang to protect your family from them.

and decided instead of killing these thugs i'll kill my mates in the mosques, just becuase they may be one thug in the msoque or a conspirator/informer to that thug in the mosque..

Surely a better way would be to attack the base of the thugs,rather than killing your mates, and if you do not have the capacity to penetrate your enemies defences then you ahve to think fo a way of "pulling the rug from their feet" so to speak!!

 

[Zakariya04]

"The bully made me kill all those people!" .....that's hardly an excuse or reason to kill innocent people, SAM. You use that excuse continually, yet it says more about the weakness of the Muslims than it does about the USA.

Baron Max

that is it exactly maximus!!

some so called muslism fall into this trap of killing inncoent people, whcih just make thinsg even more difficult

 

[S.A.M.]

and decided instead of killing these thugs i'll kill my mates in the mosques, just becuase they may be one thug in the msoque or a conspirator/informer to that thug in the mosque..

Surely a better way would be to attack the base of the thugs,rather than killing your mates, and if you do not have the capacity to penetrate your enemies defences then you ahve to think fo a way of "pulling the rug from their feet" so to speak!!

Trauma does things to people.

The ideal way of course, would be for Americans to recognise other people as human beings and treat them as they would treat similar problems in their own country. Though I would not be surprised if they used drones to kill Americans as well, the way they have morally degraded over the last century. Apparently killing people is the solution to every problem. Just throwing guns into a conflict is supposed to resolve it.

 

[Zakariya04]

Trauma does things to people.

The ideal way of course, would be for Americans to recognise other people as human beings and treat them as they would treat similar problems in their own country. Though I would not be surprised if they used drones to kill Americans as well, the way they have morally degraded over the last century.

of course the US kills its own people whetehr accidents or not but why shoudl muslims lower themselves then

ok i cant see the u tube vid att he moment but surely other truamatised people havent gone to these lengths where they kill there mates in msoques!!

there is something else here sam...

surely you know the methods some of these so called muslims are using are evil and counterproductive to reach their objectives

 

[(Q)]

Exactly, unforunately these people do not care about truth, only vilification of Muslims. They preach with their complete lack of knowledge of Islam that it is wrong, continuously embarrassing themselves. When they are proven wrong, they call us liars.

Unquestionable logic. One can only understand something if they swallow it hook, line and sinker. DH is making the claim that one cannot understand the contents of a book if they don't believe what is written there. No one therefore understands Aesops or Grimms?

The only way to discuss any religion, Islam included, is to quote its scriptures and explain it in the context of other verses. People here don't think about accuracy, only vilification. Demonizing other people helps them sleep at night.

The ridiculousness of that statement is only too accurate. When Muslims themselves kill each other over the explanation of it's contents, we are lead to believe Muslims can accurately explain the contents to anyone else.

Furthermore, we are talking of this Rushdie character. Who here has read his book? No one seems to have read it.

PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT UNLESS YOU HAVE READ IT. Read it and then come back to discuss it if you think it is protected under free speech.

that is all I have to say.

Is that a promise? Or, are you following your own advice not to comment because you haven't read the book?

 

[S.A.M.]

of course the US kills its own people whetehr accidents or not but why shoudl muslims lower themselves then

ok i cant see the u tube vid att he moment but surely other truamatised people havent gone to these lengths where they kill there mates in msoques!!

there is something else here sam...

surely you know the methods some of these so called muslims are using are evil and counterproductive to reach their objectives

The Pashtun are not "other people", they are born and die in their villages and they do not comprehend or are aware of what the foreigners are aiming for. For them, it is a simple matter of survival, nang and badal. They see foreigners/other Afghans killing their families and they want revenge. They don't believe in fear or surrender. To continually put more arms, more dead bodies and more money into this equation only shows how little the westerners understand these people. They'd get more results telling the local people to establish a jirga and getting a qadi to preside over the outcome. Dialogue is what will work here which the NATO and US forces have rejected from the very beginning.

You can't expect people to work with your system, you have to work with theirs. Or is too much to expect that after destroying two countries and embarking on the destruction of a third, the US and its allies will recognise that they are not resolving anything, that their methods do not work?

 

[(Q)]

Apparently killing people is the solution to every problem. Just throwing guns into a conflict is supposed to resolve it.

Strange you would see it that way, considering that is exactly what Islam promotes in it's rules of war.

 

[Zakariya04]

The Pashtun are not "other people", they are born and die in their villages and they do not comprehend or are aware of what the foreigners are aiming for. For them, it is a simple matter of survival, nang and badal. They see foreigners killing their families and they want revenge. They don't believe in fear or surrender. To continually put more arms, more dead bodies and more money into this equation only shows how little the westerners understand these people. They'd get more results telling the local people to establish a jirga and getting a qadi to preside over the outcome. Dialogue is what will work here which the NATO and US forces have rejected from the very beginning.

You can't expect people to work with your system, you have to work with theirs.

did is ay anything abotu other people?????

what i am saying is that why should they ahve to make muslims look like C U Next Tuesdays by blowing up muslims in mosques...

what sort of progress are we going to make when we blow up people in msoques????

Ok if i wa given a gun and a load of money by someone i doubt i would use the gun at all but fi i did i would use it to take out an enemy and as for the money i would sue it weither to develop my family/business or throw it at some plan to fuckin piss off my competitior, i sure as hell would fuck over a mate or an allied company who i work with..

if my family had been kiled by some bitch fucker, i would get my revenge on the bitch fucka not my mates or my familys mates??

and of course i woudl open dialogue if i knew that woudl be best

And just cos Nato and the west are bunch of C U NEXT TUesdays doenst mean we have to kill our mates in msoques... So much for the Muslim Ummah

 

[Zakariya04]

Strange you would see it that way, considering that is exactly what Islam promotes in it's rules of war.

yes Q the mighty UK rules of war was almost excatly liek that for world war one and 2..

so its funny how the chrsitian west adapted muslim rules fo war to world war 2 rather then jesus's whcih was if someone slaps you on the chick, offer you other chick too.