You don't actually agree with that load of bs?:bugeye:
Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread
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You don't actually agree with that load of bs?:bugeye:
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
As opposed to jailing and deportation of hundreds of Muslim scholars and college professors in America. Look up Sami Al-Arian, he is the subject of personal attacks and Zionist propaganda because he is Palestinian and open about his Palestinian nationality.
Some people can easily ignore the murder of millions of Muslims in the last few decades by Western colonial powers and their puppets, but those who are the victims can NEVER ignore this. You would do well to remember this, the West has invaded Muslim lands, and not vice versa.
People like me? The problem that you, and Atheists, Zionists, and Republicans have with me is that I am honest about my views. And even after my clear-cut posts and readiness to reply any all legitimate questions addressed to me, you still feel the need to vilify and misrepresent my views. This is informative of a deep psychological and moral void. The lack of honesty and dominance of intellectual dishonesty is a hallmark of the posters of this forum, unfortunately.
Our posts have nothing to do with each other. By taking a snippet out of my long and straightforward post, and attempting to portray it to further your own bias will not achieve anything in our pursuit of truth.
The Muslim world represents 25% of the human race. This large impoverished, and exploited segment of the world population cannot be kept in chains forever. Our desire is for political, religious, economical, and military independence for our people. Is this not a reasonable demand? Are Muslims not worthy of freedom and self-determination as others?
Fact of the matter is that terrorists do not operate in Saudiland like they do elsewhere. There may be some clerics here and there who urge some action, no different than some of the priests in the US, but from the Imam of the Greand Mosque to the people of Saudiland, terrorism has been denounced time and time again, and severe laws have been active for ages now.
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We were talking about tenets and how people that live up to them become robots. If you dont see them as becoming robots, then there is no point in arguing further. THe point was raised by Q iirc. Im not arguing for childhood conditioning, merely pointing out a a Marxist theory which interested me in Sociology.
Definitely. To me, sociologists are unsung heroes. Yes, I may disagree with some of the views Parsons for example held and or his critics, but mostly I agreed with a lot of the theories and experiments carried out.
The Salman Rushdie affair was a bit overblown in my opinion with the continuous coverage and repeating footage of books being burned by a handful of people. For years he had written books wherein he presented the wives of the Prophet as whores in a brothel. He wrote many other things about Muslims and various countries that would have angered them. To compare, it would have been like an Arab making fun of 9/11 or what Zhang Ya did and then not expecting a backlash. While I do not agree with Fatwah, it is clear that many people do not know how fatwahs work and have labelled that as being what all Muslims want to do.
Actually those specific examples were for fedr808 who seemed to want specific examples. Looking at the larger picture, most Muslim countries are relatively on the same level. Unles off course, you have visited most Muslim countries to prove me wrong?
I think this is one of the things about Islam that bothers most, if not all, westerners ...the ideal that all Muslims are one giant collective with a single voice .... "Our desire is....." See? You're speaking for every single Muslim on the freakin' planet!
Muslims the world over seem to defend the actions of other Muslims almost without thinking about what happened or why. In that regard, it seems that Muslims want to be accepted as this giant collective speaking in a single voice. Yet when it comes to some situation like Iraq or Afghanistan wars, where Muslims are killing other Muslims, they change their approach and claim that some Muslims are NOT part of that giant collective.
Seems to me that Muslims are or are not part of that giant collective that speaks in a single voice.
So .....what the is "Muslims"? Are you a giant collective? Speaking in a single voice or not?
Baron Max
Here is the fact of the manner, not all muslims are terrorists, but all major terrorists are Muslim.
If you guys don't want that kind of publicity than reconsider the whole idea of death to America, destruction of Israel, plane hijackings and all of that other shit you guys do.
If you guys don't want that kind of publicity than reconsider the whole idea of death to America, destruction of Israel, plane hijackings and all of that other shit you guys do.
Buffalo Roam
Registered Senior Member
Fact of the matter is that Islamic Terrorist do operate in and from Saudiland, and Saudiland is one of the largest supplier of Terrorist.
Now as to those laws? when are they applied? only when those Terrorist are a threat to the House of Saud.
As to your Imam of the Grand Mosque of Saudiland, yes, He speaks from one side of the Mouth of Islam, all the while the other Imams of Saudiland, speak out of the overside of the mouth of Islam.
Yes Lies of Commission, Omission, and just plain Deceit, that is the Mouth of Islam.
Hudna, Kitman, and Taqqiya.
Are they now? thats a pretty grand statement, and one which has been debunked for years, but please provide us with proof. Are those Mexican terrorists Muslims? Or what about those Brazilians? Chileans? Naxalites? The only place this argument was taken up was in America since they cant get enough of a handful of terrorists who they keep bigging up.
And see, more proof of the way of thinking that annoys and frustrates people like me. As if I am best mates with Bin Laden or the like. Maybe you should tell Americans to drop the "Death to the Arabs and Palestinians" shouts and speeches in their churches, or the destruction of Muslim countries like Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan, or covert ops in other countries and all of that other shit you guys do.
Actually no. The largest supplier of arms to terorrists and recruiter for terrorist causes is the US with its fucked up foreign policy.
Actually no. Despite my dislike of the House of Saud, anti-terrorism laws apply all the time
Actually no. All the great imams and scholars have denounced terrorism time and time again. In fact, there have been more denunciations of terrorism from Muslim imams and scholars than from the whole Western world.
Ah, so you still believe that Taqiyya means Muslims can lie all over the place. Did you miss that debate we had last year where I proved it wasnt so? Or was there something else said after I left and concentrated more on Uni work?
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
We are One Ummah [nation], united not by blood or heritage, but by the power of faith. We are united in our oppression, united in our occupation, and united in our rise. One God, One people.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be to him) said "The Muslims are like one body, when one part of it is hurt, all feel pain."
The difference is that we speak our mind, we speak for ourselves. Under the bombs of the enemy and the daily vilification of our religion, we are one. As we have done in the past, once complete unity of achieved, we have the potential of limitless greatness. No other message can unite man as the worship of One God.
Those who do not hold to our ideals, our traditions of benevolence, justice, and equality, they are not part our civilization. They are merely criminals, and it is an error of the Western judgment to define us by them. We are a great civilization, the like of which there exists no parable in human history, we are a proud and exalted nation.
Muslims are united in their oppression and know the solutions to rid themselves of that oppression lie with their religion. That is why we are called 'Muslims." We are defined by the richness of our religious teachings, that is the measuring stick to judge who is a true Muslim or not.
This would be hard for someone outside of our civilization to comprehend, especially one who wishes to vilify us and our religion.
Well, it's all just words, right? And I would suggest that criminals like Osama bin Laden and others like him also use those same/similar words of Islam's greatness, etc when they're blowing up things and people ......in the name of Islam.
So .....who do we believe? You ...who speaks of benevolence, peace and good-will toward all men? Or the likes of Osama ...who speaks of the unity of Muslims, and calls for the death and destruction of all non-Muslims?
Just words, but we have to believe something! It's sure as hell easy to believe people like Osama and the like .....since they make a helluva lot of noise about it, not to mention death and destruction.
Islam is not a "great civilization"! Islam is a religion. You speak of great civilization, yet the areas of the world that are predominantly Muslim are some of the most destitute areas of the world. How can you call that poverty and hunger and disease as ....a great civilization? Without western medicines and such, most of those places would be worse than they are!
I think that you speaking of Muslims as a united collective, with united goals and aspirations, is actually doing more harm than good. How can you speak of Islamic unity when Muslims are killing Muslims all over the world?
Baron Max
Or the Christian soldiers that pray to Jesus before bombing Muslims. Or raping them. Or raiding their houses at night.
or the likes of Bush and Cheney or Coulter, who advocate the killings of many innocent people, in some cases specifically Muslims and Arabs.
Actually, there havebeen more denunications of terrorism from Muslim scholars and Imams than there have been videos of Bin Laden and denunications of Bin Laden from the West and people like you. Its just you dont want to hear it.
*Cough*Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, African nations *cough* What do they have in common? Ah yes, Some are Western and some are Christian
How can you speak of any unity when Americans are killing Americans, Christians are killing Christians, etc etc etc etc
I don't base my views of the common establishments of the Muslim religion on the bad actions of the US government, or vice versa. I am not choosing between approval of oppression and approval of the opppressed.diamond said:
Your honesty is not the problem I have with your views.diamond said:
And they have it, in many places. You talk as if the Muslims of the earth were one body of people.diamond said:
At least, that's how you talk when you are not complaining about anti-Islamic bigots confusing jihadists with safffron exporters, suicide bombers with Sufis, Saudis with Iranians with Indonesians with Pakistanis, and so forth.
That kind of extraordinary reaction - that the worldwide response among Muslims to Rushdie's novels was some kind of reasonably expectable "backlash", therefore not a sign of something wrong - is what I remember about the general response of most Muslims to the Rushdie matter. You, an obviously educated and literate person, appear to be clueless in this matter. And the only reason I can think of for that is your Islamic upbringing.arsalan said:
My only purpose in picking up "robot" from the discussion was to draw attention to the nature of the "conditioning" involved, which you seemed to be overlooking in claiming, for example, that the Pillars were not conditioning while traffic rules were. Instead, it distracted. So it's jettisoned, for my part. The question - is it the {external regulations} that make the {conditioned one} a {conditioned one}? - is still worth attention, IMHO. The pettiness of tyranny 's mechanisms of subjugation is well known, but such means do not exhaust the modes of conditioning available.
Specific examples of what? Same level as what? The argument keeps shifting. There are no Muslim countries on the "same level" as the upper tier of those commonly described as Western, for example, and no Islamic centers of research and education on the "same level" as the upper few dozens of Western institutions, and this situation has held for the past couple of hundred years - beginning with the scientific and industrial revolutions, neither of which (regardless of their roots) took hold in any primarily Islamic country.arsalan said:
Now this is quite possibly coincidence, a matter of the kinds of factors Jared Diamond demonstrates to correct us if we are unfortunately assuming an unearned superiority of culture or race. And as you are busy with another argument altogether
I'll leave you to it - noting only, in possing, that I doubt any church in the US has ever rung with shouts of "death to the Arabs and Palestinians".
Quite. It is the secular American who arms the Israels to the tune of 3 billion a year and the secular American troops who volunteer to kill the hajis by the million. It is the elected representatives who make the decisions and the American taxpayer who funds it all. Why would they need to cry out in churches? They are too busy doing the actual torturing and killing.
Using the excuse of a cultural cry of Margbag Amrika or Murdabad Israel is hardly a justification for actually killing and torturing people. The previous is merely freedom of expression, the latter, murder, destabilisation and an infringement of sovereignty.
If conditions were reversed, ie the Americans were holding protests saying "Death to Arabs" while the Arabs were bombing their country and holding hundreds in concentration camps, what would your focus be?
You're fricking kidding me. You see the complete nonchalance over the occupation and destruction of two countries and most people not caring about a meaningless fatwa by some Ayatollah bothers you?
Well guess what, the complete cluelessness of most Americans to the massive carnage and destabilisation of entire countries by their elected government, beats the odd dismissal of an Ayatollah by people not considering themselves representative of some Iranian representative, hollow.
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Although I sincerely commend your improvements in the areas of spelling and grammar, your knowledge base still needs loads of work. What you regurgitate is US manufactured propaganda. Nothing remotely close to the truth.
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This ghost, or missing person called Osama, who pops up on ANALOGUE AUDIO tape every 3 years or so, by which ingenious reasoning do you figure this virtual persona speaks for Islam? There is no proof that this ghost is even alive apart from what the propagandists would have you believe.
Yes, unfortunately for you it WAS and still IS a great civilization. What Islam had long discovered, the Western world was re discovering only at the turn of the 20th Century.
Well, mainly because the above is only happening in your head. You can get tablets for that kind of thing.
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"Meaningless?" Real people were murdered.
The vast majority of Muslims responded with words. The vast majority of Muslims responded not just because of 1 book but because of the serial villification of extremely dear historical persons and extremely important events he continously employed in his books which ultimately culminated in The Satanic Verses. If you think that doing what he did, in a different setting, say, mocking 9/11/the troubles/slavery and calling the people all kinds of names in a series of novels, and not expecting a backlash of people denouncing his novels, then maybe you should take a look at the long lists of banned books and movies in the US and UK.
How many books of him have you read before The Satanic Verses? Sure, you can call me clueless, doesnt matter if thats wrong, but at least have the intellectual honesty to back up your own understanding of the situation.
Traffic rules or not. Even if you take just the Pillars, arguing that they condition in a way that the core laws from which our "traffic rules" are dervied do not, is an equally shameful showing of ignorance.
Exactly what kind of research and education? There are literally 100s of research institutions in countries with a large Muslim population ranging from social science to astronomy and astro physics which are doing incredible work. Just as we are more familiar with our big names, they are familiar with their own big names.
Its not coincidence, its just ignorance of what the other half of the world that doesnt speak English or translates their work is doing.
I suggest you dig in The Nations arhcives to see various church leaders call for such actions.