Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[Arsalan]

And this is supposed to compare to the invention of splitting an atom?

I thought we were just using some contemporary examples of the relative similarities. But if you want to go down that road, thats fine as well:

Contributions

Salam's primary focus was research on the physics of elementary particles. His particular contributions included:

* two-component neutrino theory and the prediction of the inevitable parity violation in weak interaction;
* gauge unification of weak and electromagnetic interactions, the unified force is called the "Electroweak" force, a name given to it by Salam, and which forms the basis of the Standard Model in particle physics;
* predicted existence of weak neutral currents and W particles and Z particles before their experimental discovery;[12]
* symmetry properties of elementary particles; unitary symmetry;
* renormalization of meson theories;
* gravity theory and its role in particle physics; two tensor theory of gravity and strong interaction physics;
* unification of electroweak with strong nuclear forces, grand unification theory;
* related prediction of proton-decay;
* Pati-Salam model, a grand unification theory;
* Supersymmetry theory, in particular formulation of Superspace and formalism of superfields in 1974;
* the theory of supermanifolds, as a geometrical framework for understanding supersymmetry, in 1974;[13]
* Supergeometry, the geometric basis for supersymmetry, in 1974;[14]
* application of the Higgs mechanism to the electroweak symmetry breaking;
* prediction of the magnetic photon in 1966;[15]

[edit] Awards[16]

* Hopkins Prize (Cambridge University) for "the most outstanding contribution to Physics during 1957-1958"
* Adams Prize (Cambridge University) (1958)
* First recipient of Maxwell Medal and Award (Physical Society, London) (1961)
* Hughes Medal (Royal Society, London) (1964)
* Atoms for Peace Medal and Award (Atoms for Peace Foundation) (1968)
* J. Robert Oppenheimer Memorial Medal and Prize (University of Miami) (1971)
* Guthrie Medal and Prize (1976)
* Matteuci Medal (Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Rome) (1978)
* John Torrence Tate Medal (American Institute of Physics) (1978)
* Royal Medal (Royal Society, London) (1978)
* Einstein Medal (UNESCO, Paris) (1979)
* Shri R.D. Birla Award (India Physics Association) (1979)
* Josef Stefan Medal (Josef Stefan Institute, Ljublijana) (1980)
* Gold Medal for Outstanding Contributions to Physics (Czechoslovak Academy of Sciences, Prague) (1981)
* Lomonosov Gold Medal (USSR Academy of Sciences) (1983)
* Copley Medal (Royal Society, London) (1990
* Nishan-e-Imtiaz for outstanding performance in Scientific projects in Pakistan.

Source

Prodea has announced the formation of a partnership with Space Adventures, Ltd. and the Federal Space Agency of the Russian Federation (FSA) to create a fleet of suborbital spaceflight vehicles for global commercial use.

Source

Zewail's key work has been as the pioneer of femtochemistry—i.e. the study of chemical reactions across femtoseconds. Using a rapid ultrafast laser technique (consisting of ultrashort laser flashes), the technique allows the description of reactions on very short time scales - short enough to analyse transition states in selected chemical reactions.

Source

Siddiqui's first breakthrough in research came when he successfully isolated an antiarrhythmic agent in 1931[3] from the roots of Rauwolfia serpentina. He named the newly discovered chemical compound as Ajmaline, after his mentor Hakim Ajmal Khan who was one of the illustrious practitioners of Unani system of medicine in South Asia.[1] Later on, Siddiqui also extracted other alkaloids from Rauwolfia serpentina that included Ajmalinine, Ajmalicine (C21H24N2O3), Isoajmaline, Neoajmaline, Serpentine and Serpentinine. Many of these are still used worldwide for treatment of mental disorders and cardiovascular ailments,[2] especially as antiarrhythmic agents in Brugada syndrome.[4]

Source

And theres loads of other physicists and chemists.

to inventing the airplane?

Meet Ibn Firnas and his research into flying and actual flight in 875.

To inventing the lightbulb? to inventing AC and DC current? To landing on the moon? To inventing stealth technology?

Banu Musa Whose inventions are at the core of various other modern inventions

Ibn al Haytham - First scientist - founder of experimental psychology and the scientific method. Also called the first scientist for his large volume of works which influenced modern scientists.

Small list of Muslim inventions

This is the problem. Unable to recognize that Muslim countries and societies are relatively at the same level. Also assuming that the West merely consists of the USA and or some countries in Europe. Brazil, Chile, Mexico Estonia are all part of the Western world, yet they arent at the forefront of technological advance. This is what relative means. You have to take all the countries in the West or at lesat a large amount of them and then compare them with the countries in the East or at least a large amount of them. Add on top of this that there is no problem in finding out online what technological advances there havebeen in the USA or the UK, but if you want to find out about technological advances in Muslim countries, it is imposible to find out in English, except for a few physicists who pioneered important fields. also keep in mind thatarticles nothing modern Muslim inventions and contributions to our way of life, specially in the West, keep getting deleted at Wikipedia.But this will slowly change seeing as how many Muslims are shaping up our online experience, from watching flash video to youtube to multimedia and publications.

nanotech and stemcells, would congrats, but how much did those two require technology invented by the US earlier?

What technology?

Oil platforms for starters, do you really think that any of the middle eastern countries would be worth a nickel without them?

* Oil field, petroleum industry, naphtha, and tar: An early petroleum industry was established in the 8th century, when the streets of Baghdad were paved with tar, derived from petroleum through destructive distillation. In the 9th century, oil fields were first exploited in the area around modern Baku, Azerbaijan, to produce naphtha. These fields were described by al-Masudi in the 10th century, and by Marco Polo in the 13th century, who described the output of its oil wells as hundreds of shiploads.[10]

* Petrol: Muslim chemists were the first to produce petrol from crude oil.[54]

Source

 

[Arsalan]

Nonsense, no one cares about Muslims that commit crimes, that stuff happens all the time. What are more important are the crimes that are committed in the name of Islam, because of Islam, by Islamic organizations. Christians commit crimes too, but things like killing abortion doctors are done in the name of Christianity. Sure humans can be violent, but we don't need religions that encourage this even further.

And why are they "Islamic organizations"? Just becuase the people that are members of them happen to be Muslim? How many Christian gangs are there then in the US and Mexico? How many crimes do they commit every day and or week? Dont they pray to Jesus in the same churches and are bonded together by that? Dont they consider it theyre Christian right to help the poor in their countries by killing and drug running?

 

[Arsalan]

What about when Muslims do bad things because of their particular interpretation of Islam? That couldn't be, because Islam is perfect? We shouldn't care because the west does even worse? And finally, it's just a reaction to oppression and occupation?

Heard it all before.

Oh, that could be. In fact, I know of some Muslims whose interpretations make me think theyre retards. But when these people commit crimes, they arent any worse than the Christians bombing abortion hospitals or going on a killing spree to save the white race like in the US. But they do get way more attention and are used as an excuse to attack Islam while when a Christian goes "saving the white race" we dont blame Christianity, we blame the people that put him up to it, the right wing nuts.

 

[spidergoat]

And why are they "Islamic organizations"? Just becuase the people that are members of them happen to be Muslim?...

Not at all. They are Islamic organizations because it's in the name, and because they make no secret that their intention is to fight in the name of Islam, it's all very clear, they don't deny it, it's jihad.

Oh, that could be. In fact, I know of some Muslims whose interpretations make me think theyre retards. But when these people commit crimes, they arent any worse than the Christians bombing abortion hospitals or going on a killing spree to save the white race like in the US. But they do get way more attention and are used as an excuse to attack Islam while when a Christian goes "saving the white race" we dont blame Christianity, we blame the people that put him up to it, the right wing nuts.

Aren't they worse? They are better funded, better armed, and kill more people.

And who's attacking Islam? ...Only fringe extremists.

 

[Arsalan]

Not at all. They are Islamic organizations because it's in the name, and because they make no secret that their intention is to fight in the name of Islam, it's all very clear, they don't deny it, it's jihad.

You mean like the various White Supremacists in the US? OR the gangs in Mexico and Brazil that kill by bucketload?

Aren't they worse? They are better funded, better armed, and kill more people.

And who's attacking Islam? ...Only fringe extremists.

Last year Christian gangs in Mexico killed and beheaded around 4000 people while praying to Jesus and wearing crosses. White Christian supremacists killed and attacked various foreigners and also churches.

 

[spidergoat]

You mean like the various White Supremacists in the US? OR the gangs in Mexico and Brazil that kill by bucketload?

Last year Christian gangs in Mexico killed and beheaded around 4000 people while praying to Jesus and wearing crosses. White Christian supremacists killed and attacked various foreigners and also churches.

Yes, I'd say it's more like the KKK, but not like the gangs. Gangs kill for profit, and only happen to be Christian. The white supremacists do commit violence as a direct result of their "religion".

I'm not trying to justify Bush's stupid plan to remake the Middle East using warfare, such actions only make the problem worse. I'm not trying to make Muslims look bad. But if one can legitimately criticize Zionism as a product of Judaism (and Christianity), then one should be able to criticize Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism as a product of Islam.

 

[Arsalan]

Yes, I'd say it's more like the KKK, but not like the gangs. Gangs kill for profit, and only happen to be Christian. The white supremacists do commit violence as a direct result of their "religion".

I'm not trying to justify Bush's stupid plan to remake the Middle East using warfare, such actions only make the problem worse. I'm not trying to make Muslims look bad. But if one can legitimately criticize Zionism as a product of Judaism (and Christianity), then one should be able to criticize Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism as a product of Islam.

And the killings in Afghanistan for example could not be for profit? After all, there is a large opium trade there. This is just it. When Muslim gangs kill, its not for profit but for Islam, When non-Muslim gangs kill, its for profit and other reasons.

Zionism is not a result of Judaism, but of evangelical Christianity. The greatest zionists can be found in the Bible Belt in the USA. Believing that only 1 race of people are destined to be Gods chosen and the other people that are living there should be wiped out is isnt the way forward. Unfortunately, that is exactly what evangelical megachurches in the USA preach every week. Fundemental Islam Terrorism has its roots in the Zia era of Pakistani politics when the government and judiciary foolishly allowed a bunch of cretins to determine who was and was not a Muslim. However, most "Muslim" terrorist groups can be found in countries that have been at war for ages and are at war right now. Countries that are poor and whose infrastructuce has been destroyed. Whats the excuse for the evangelical Christians?

 

[Baron Max]

When Muslim gangs kill, its not for profit but for Islam,.....

For Islam? What does Islam, a religion, gain by someone being killed????

So, ....tell me, with that logic and reasoning, if the US began to claim that we were killing in Afghanistan "for Christianity", would you then approve??

Baron Max

 

[Arsalan]

For Islam? What does Islam, a religion, gain by someone being killed????

So, ....tell me, with that logic and reasoning, if the US began to claim that we were killing in Afghanistan "for Christianity", would you then approve??

Baron Max

I already see it like that, largely because if any attack by the Taliban or other resistance movements is called "Muslim terrorism" then the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are "Christian terrorism"

 

[Baron Max]

I already see it like that, largely because if any attack by the Taliban or other resistance movements is called "Muslim terrorism" then the Iraq and Afghanistan wars are "Christian terrorism"

Okay, that's fine. But what does Islam, the religion, gain by anyone being killed? Or Christianity, the religion? What does the religion gain?

It's almost like say "I kill for my shirt" ....it's almost meaningless.

Baron Max

 

[Arsalan]

Okay, that's fine. But what does Islam, the religion, gain by anyone being killed? Or Christianity, the religion? What does the religion gain?

It's almost like say "I kill for my shirt" ....it's almost meaningless.

Baron Max

Gains nothing. I dont believe it does. If it was up to me, I wouldnt label it Muslim and or Christian terrorism. Unfortunately, to show other people how stupid their way of thinking is, I have to resort to this

 

[Baron Max]

Gains nothing. I dont believe it does....

Huh? Now you're saying something else??? You said in an earlier post: "... This is just it. When Muslim gangs kill, its not for profit but for Islam, When non-Muslim gangs kill, its for profit and other reasons."

Those are your words! Now ....what does Islam gain by anyone being killed?

Baron Max

 

[spidergoat]

And the killings in Afghanistan for example could not be for profit? After all, there is a large opium trade there. This is just it. When Muslim gangs kill, its not for profit but for Islam, When non-Muslim gangs kill, its for profit and other reasons...

Zionism certainly has much to do with Judaism. The evangelicals pay it lip service, but they seldom admit their mythology requires the death of all Jews before Christ is risen. Anyway, Islamic Fundamentalism seems to be centered in Saudi Arabia, a country that is not at war.

Oh, and it costs lots of money to pursue Wahhabism around the world. The US never intended to stop the opium trade, but interestingly the Taliban did reduce it.

 

[Arsalan]

Huh? Now you're saying something else??? You said in an earlier post: "... This is just it. When Muslim gangs kill, its not for profit but for Islam, When non-Muslim gangs kill, its for profit and other reasons."

Those are your words! Now ....what does Islam gain by anyone being killed?

Baron Max

That was an explanation of how anti-Islamics present the actions of "Muslim" terrorists.

 

[Arsalan]

Zionism certainly has much to do with Judaism. The evangelicals pay it lip service, but they seldom admit their mythology requires the death of all Jews before Christ is risen. Anyway, Islamic Fundamentalism seems to be centered in Saudi Arabia, a country that is not at war.

But terrorism committed by people that happen to be Muslim, doesnt happen that often in Saudiland or many other Muslim countries that can be considered stable.

 

[spidergoat]

They don't happen to be Muslim, they are acting out distinctly Islamic ideas. Sure, the Saudi financiers find recruits among people that are not otherwise employed, but that only supports my view that terrorism is not just a product of an oppressed and desperate people.

 

[Arsalan]

They don't happen to be Muslim, they are acting out distinctly Islamic ideas. Sure, the Saudi financiers find recruits among people that are not otherwise employed, but that only supports my view that terrorism is not just a product of an oppressed and desperate people.

You do know how incredibly illegal it is to recruit for terrorist activities in Saudiland and the punishemnts that range from rehabilitation to severe? Why do you think Al Qaeda stays away from there.

Also, exactly which groups are focused only on goals that are Islamic not anything else?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Zionism certainly has much to do with Judaism. The evangelicals pay it lip service, but they seldom admit their mythology requires the death of all Jews before Christ is risen. Anyway, Islamic Fundamentalism seems to be centered in Saudi Arabia, a country that is not at war.

Having been a life long member of the Christian Church, I can categorically tell you that you are full of shit on this, I have never heard or read any such theology as you have just espoused about the Jews having to be wiped out for the Return of Jesus Christ.

Oh, and it costs lots of money to pursue Wahhabism around the world. The US never intended to stop the opium trade, but interestingly the Taliban did reduce it.

Really and how much did the Taliban reduce the Drug Trade?

Seems they collected it as taxes and for protection, when they were in power and are now using it to supply arms for themselves.

http://www.metimes.com/Internationa..., 2009 /the_taliban_opium_connection/2650/

The Taliban opium connection

Many people still mistakenly believe the Taliban were opposed to the drug trade due to the ban they placed on opium cultivation during their last year in power. However, even prior to capturing Kabul on Sept. 27, 1996, the Taliban made deals to allow opium cultivation and processing in return for political support and a cut of the profits.

Opium cultivation increased significantly each year under Taliban rule until they issued decrees in July 2000 banning poppy cultivation. The ban became effective after that year's crop was safely harvested. The Taliban took no steps to apprehend drug traffickers or seize stored opium, precursor chemicals, morphine, or heroin. Instead, the Taliban were selling their own opium at newly inflated prices and allowed others to sell, process, and transport drugs, with the Taliban taking their usual fees in taxes and protection money.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

You do know how incredibly illegal it is to recruit for terrorist activities in Saudiland and the punishemnts that range from rehabilitation to severe? Why do you think Al Qaeda stays away from there.

Also, exactly which groups are focused only on goals that are Islamic not anything else?

Then why are so many in the Islamic Terrorist Movement Saudi?

http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/937fxvva.asp

The Saudi Connection
In Iraq and elsewhere, terrorism thrives with Saudi support.
by Stephen Schwartz
07/30/2007 12:00:00 AM

ALMOST SIX YEARS after September 11, 2001, and more than four years since the beginning of the U.S.-led intervention in Iraq, the American government and media have begun to admit something every informed and honest Muslim in the world has known all along. That is: the "Sunni insurgency" in Iraq, as well as 9/11 and certain acts of extremist Sunni violence inside Iraq before then, are consequences of the official status of the ultra-fundamentalist Wahhabi sect in Saudi Arabia, Iraq's southern neighbor. Saudi Wahhabi clerics have preached and recruited for terror in Iraq; Saudi money has sustained it; the largest number of those who have carried out suicide bombings north of the Saudi-Iraqi border have been Saudi citizens.

"Counterproductive" is a euphemism for Saudi state subsidies to Wahhabi clerics who demand the genocide of Shia Muslims, urge young men to go north and sacrifice themselves to that end, and preach eulogies after their deaths. It is also a diplomatic way to describe the official Saudi policy of ignoring financial contributions by rich Saudi citizens to support Wahhabi terror in Iraq. Others might call such behavior acts of war rather than merely "counterproductive."

 

[iceaura]

And its the same with religious laws. People dont know most of them, people break them all the time, but because they are mostly personal beliefs, no one notices or even cares. Same thing with children, too young to understand whats going on. I myself dont believe in applying Pavlovs Dogs to humans, but then again I dont believe humans can become robots just like that. It takes severe training and punishment, degradation and demoralization to become a robot.

I did mention that "robot" was not the right word here.

But the other confusion is now apparent - are we talking about the principles, or the details of establishment? We were comparing the Pillars with traffic rules, and now we are talking about the details of clerical law - which would have been a more reasonable comparison to traffic rules. This shifting of the frame seems to be unconscious.

Are you arguing for childhood conditioning by threat of the myriad petty Western adult laws, or not ?

Not really. Its not odd. Its something thats been noted by various sociologists.

It is definitely odd, for those with my upbringing.

I'm not sure how your sociologist sources "noted" the effects of fundie theistic belief on imagination and reaction and assumption. It surely is possible to establish, even quantify in some respects, but would you lend credence?

And that fedr808 is the point of view that frustrates and annoys us. We can acknowledge that Muslims can commit crimes, but what we cant stand is the fact that everytime a person that happens to be Muslim commits a crime, it is painted as being because of Islam and not because that person was an asshole. Then we get websites who count how many "Muslim Terrorist Attacks" there have been, while not mentioning that the vast majority of those attacks take place in Iraq and or Afghanistan, 2 countries that the US invaded and brought war too. They also never mention that people kill each other for various things all over the world. How many murders and attacks are there every single day and or week in the US? How many gangs are active? Do we ascribe every single crime they commit to Christianity or Atheism?

You are surely justified in complaining of the unfair treatment in the Western press.

But it has other roots than merely blind prejudice or ignorant error. My own somewhat jaundiced view of Islam, for example, dates back to the Salman Rushdie affair - and it was not the press that presented me with this view, but my own reactions to the majority of Muslims writing letters and reacting to the event in my presence. There are people like diamondheart, here, in every religion and every country - but not so many, and so ubiquitous.

As the stage sets on another era of human history, know that the Muslim world cannot remain pacified forever. It will rise and join its rightful place among the great nations of the world, and no amount of disinformation and oppression will hold this raging lion down.

This is the problem. Unable to recognize that Muslim countries and societies are relatively at the same level.

They aren't. And you illustrate the matter with your examples - individual Muslims in the modern era, famous schools of thought and Islamic institutions of the distant past.