Islam - Terrorism, Inc.
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jvonthenet
Registered Member
stop this crap
its all pretty well 2 blame terrorism on Islam.....its was an Islamic nation called germany which started 2 kill jews.....it was a nonIslamic region called Arabia which sheltered these jews.....an islamic state called israel was then formed by these jews in the Arabic heartland....n who started 2 kill nonMuslim palestines....also.....an islamic state by the name of america built a group called taliban 2 abet its cause against their brothers in faith->russia...guess u can blame all these wars on Islam....n hindus...well less said bout them the better.....indias a prime example of a democratic state providin security 2 minorities->muslims n christians....stop bein dumb guys.....lifes 2 short 2 b pointin fingers at others...use that time 2 better urself instead....n stop quotin the Quran out of context!
its all pretty well 2 blame terrorism on Islam.....its was an Islamic nation called germany which started 2 kill jews.....it was a nonIslamic region called Arabia which sheltered these jews.....an islamic state called israel was then formed by these jews in the Arabic heartland....n who started 2 kill nonMuslim palestines....also.....an islamic state by the name of america built a group called taliban 2 abet its cause against their brothers in faith->russia...guess u can blame all these wars on Islam....n hindus...well less said bout them the better.....indias a prime example of a democratic state providin security 2 minorities->muslims n christians....stop bein dumb guys.....lifes 2 short 2 b pointin fingers at others...use that time 2 better urself instead....n stop quotin the Quran out of context!
First, thank you for helping me out here. Just because of your claims, I learn more and more about my religion. It is very interesting that you have missed the first line of these verses, which mentioned about the 4 forbidden months, when muslims were not suppose to fight and then the accord among muslims and non-muslims and if they break it then the above commands were applicable. There is a lot more then what you try to shove into our throats. By the way, my proofs are coming from English Translation of Maudidi's Tafseer E Quran. It was originaly published in Urdu and then in English. There are 6 books.
Also, I didn't and don't believe what the Preachers or Imams tell me to believe, I do and did my own studies and chose my path.
Peace
Um ....
Pastor aided Rwanda genocide
In the meantime, I'm chuckling at that hideous article from the topic post.
:m:,
Tiassa
Pastor aided Rwanda genocide
A Christian pastor assisting genocide ....
In the meantime, I'm chuckling at that hideous article from the topic post.
:m:,
Tiassa
tiassa,
John 13:35
"35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
For the LAST time (hopefully...):
NO LOVE = NO GOD
If there is no Love, there is no God. It is not Christian to do any violent act. If a "Christian" do some violent, it is a false prophet.
Philipians 4:8-9
"8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. "
I hope I don't need to post this again...
John 13:35
"35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
For the LAST time (hopefully...):
NO LOVE = NO GOD
If there is no Love, there is no God. It is not Christian to do any violent act. If a "Christian" do some violent, it is a false prophet.
Philipians 4:8-9
"8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me--put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. "
TS ... thank you
TruthSeeker
Thank you for providing me the external factor I needed to make my point:
You've literally hit the target as squarely as I could have hoped.
I understand what you're saying. But if you read that article linked in the topic post, you'll find that such an indictment as this topic title offers is more common than the article author would like you to believe. Specifically, Christianity can be called Violence, Inc., or Supremacist, Inc. In this SDA pastor's case, I'm sure he did what he did for the glory of God. Remember that he has Biblical precedent:
- Amalek (Sciforums)
- 1 Samuel 15 (NAB)
We've actually visited the subject of Amalek at Sciforums on many occasions. But nobody can work around what happens in 1 Sa. 15, when God punishes Samuel for sparing Agag. Genocide has a history in the Bible, and when all else fails, why not drop a flood on the world and kill everyone but your chosen few?
Believe me, Nelson, I know what you're getting at. But this guy had plenty of source material to misinterpret according to God's plan for his conscience.
Additional links
- Genocide in the Old Testament (Rational Christianity)
- The Destruction of the Amalekites (Rational Christianity)
- Good Question: Shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekites be considered a war crime? (Christian Think Tank)
:m:,
Tiassa
TruthSeeker
Thank you for providing me the external factor I needed to make my point:
There are many Muslims out there who will rightly say that of their extremist brethren. It was a gamble, I admit, to sit and wait for the irony to return to me, but thank you for bringing my little ironic sheep back to me.
You've literally hit the target as squarely as I could have hoped.
I understand what you're saying. But if you read that article linked in the topic post, you'll find that such an indictment as this topic title offers is more common than the article author would like you to believe. Specifically, Christianity can be called Violence, Inc., or Supremacist, Inc. In this SDA pastor's case, I'm sure he did what he did for the glory of God. Remember that he has Biblical precedent:
- Amalek (Sciforums)
- 1 Samuel 15 (NAB)
We've actually visited the subject of Amalek at Sciforums on many occasions. But nobody can work around what happens in 1 Sa. 15, when God punishes Samuel for sparing Agag. Genocide has a history in the Bible, and when all else fails, why not drop a flood on the world and kill everyone but your chosen few?
Believe me, Nelson, I know what you're getting at. But this guy had plenty of source material to misinterpret according to God's plan for his conscience.
Additional links
- Genocide in the Old Testament (Rational Christianity)
- The Destruction of the Amalekites (Rational Christianity)
- Good Question: Shouldn't the butchering of the Amalekites be considered a war crime? (Christian Think Tank)
:m:,
Tiassa
My bad, I should have said a verse before 29th. I can't understand arabic so that link is use less for me. I used Abdula Yusuf's translation and if you haven't heard about Maudidi, then you should go get your self a copy, it might help you. Now, since you do not know the context of quran or you missed that on purpose, I am going to quote the two verses for you. There is long message in Chapter 9 of Quran, since you may not have first hand knowledge of the Quran rather then it is in your language, it is really important that you go in the background of those verses and see the chapter and verses as a whole. Not individually or pick what you like and disrecard what doesn't serve you purpose.
28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
"and yet you said That you use some imam's Tafseer (maudidi) To tell you about Verses...How redicilous..."
He wasn't imam, but was a scholer from India/Pakistan. He is not preaching me anything but I am reading his tasfeer, like you are reading yours. It is not that hard to understand. What I replied for, was a direct response to your calim that english speaking people believe what the Imams tell them to. Belief is in your heart you cannot believe what I tell you or others, you will only believe what your heart and mind tells you to believe. But you are missing my point. Anyways, I don't think that Ibn Kathir is the only one with the authority, maybe in your country but I will check that too, and see what is in there.
Why would you take those messages at eternal commands? Weren't they specificaly for certain situations? like in above verses? Since, I don't know what is in kathir's tasfeer.
So, why not try the whole chapter before jumping to your conclusions. It helps you know.
I am not finished yet, I will get back to you with more details. Thanks for your patience.
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tiassa,
God has no plans for that. It certainly was a misinterpretation, but he could have avoided that.
Tadpole_Terror
Registered Senior Member
To pretend that there's not something fundementally wrong with the religion of Islam is to ignore what your own eyes are telling you. I don't "hate" muslims, I don't hate anyone. That said, I can look around the world and see this proclaimed 'peaceful religion' involved in more genocides, butchering and carnage than any other entity in existance.
It's possible to point at isolated conflicts not involving muslims, but that's a rather silly argument used by those who do not wish to see the facts. Underneath the huge majority of bloody conflicts today are the followers of Islam attempting to force their beliefs on an unwilling (or unwanted) population.
It's possible to point at isolated conflicts not involving muslims, but that's a rather silly argument used by those who do not wish to see the facts. Underneath the huge majority of bloody conflicts today are the followers of Islam attempting to force their beliefs on an unwilling (or unwanted) population.
Truthseeker
God works in mysterious ways, Nelson. For whatever reason this pastor went astray, it serves God's needs somehow.
Tadpole Terror
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the religion of Christianity ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the Democratic Party ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the Republican Party ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the American model of government ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the Communist Manifesto ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with teenagers ....
If there was nothing fundamentally wrong about any of us, the world would be peaceful.
Tadpole, there is a point at which we recognize the fundamental unsoundness of various things, but human beings are determined to be fundamentally unsound.
(1) I'm an American; most of my tax dollars go toward trying to force American beliefs and practices on others.
(2) The difference between Christianity and Islam in terms of its savagery toward humanity is that Christians, a few centuries ago, found something that was more important to them than God--money. They may have stopped killing in droves, but if you watch closely, they're still out there trying to force their beliefs on people.
(3) Extremist Muslims were recruited by the West to fight Communism.
(4) After the Cold War, these extremist factions rose to fill the political vacuum left by the collapse of the Red Menace.
(5) Consider that the Taliban, for instance, were recruited by Donald Rumsfeld to fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan.
(6) Have you ever read about the formation of the modern state of Israel?
(7) Maybe if we don't like the heated undercurrent of Muslim conflicts, we shouldn't light fires under them?
Shall I continue? True, we should have left Christianity in the fifteenth, seventeenth, or nineteenth centuries, but we still make excuses for it, and things are gradually getting better. A lot of Americans point to the necessities of warfare, but deny that concept of others. It's necessary that we attack Iraq. They pose a distant but conceivable possible threat to the security of the United States, so we need to prosecute a war. You know, that kind of thinking is a luxury compared to the world. To many Muslims, the Western threats against them are far greater than any ambition of their own. It's all in what side of the line you stand on, but since it's an artificial line, I choose neither. History pretty much indicates that a major temper tantrum out of the Muslim world is a couple decades overdue at least. If we award Islam equal opportunity--that is, forgive its difficulties at least as much as Christianity chose to forgive itself ... well, Christianity never really forgives itself as it rarely sees anything needing forgiveness .... But, at any rate, if we award Islam equal opportunity at least, they'll probably figure it out in less than six-hundred years, which will be ahead of schedule if psychosocial evolution is taken to be constant. I'm lucky--I wasn't paying taxes yet the last time the US murdered hundreds of civilians with a "surgical" strike against a shelter in Iraq. This time I am. If my tax contribution sponsors an atrocity like it did in Afghanistan, I'm just as guilty as any one of the Muslims you would like to imagine is trying to kill you by funneling money to terrorists.
You know, for all the effort people are putting into hating Muslims these days, I'm starting to think that it might just be time for the Western Imperium to begin its decline. Perhaps a couple of centuries with a chill, moderate Europe at the world helm or something, but if the US continues to lead it ....
Remember: George Bush, Sr., Don Rumsfeld, Henry Kissenger, Ronald Reagan ... yeah, probably Clinton and his administration--do you realize how many Americans support terrorism? Remember, the first four there, Dubs, Rummy, Kiss, and Ray-gun, hired the freaking terrorists!
Think of it this way: All of those Christian groups running around the US calling for censorship, Christian rule in public schools, codified bigotry, and so forth ... can you imagine if these bastards were funded by, oh, say, the French? Come on, wouldn't you be pissed?
And when you think about the fact that it would just be a headache at the ballot box in this country, why worry at all? One of the differences there is that the people we've hired in other places kill people instead of just yell and whine a lot.
If you're desperately seeking a reason to hate Islam and Muslims, try finding one that isn't so generally applicable to the rest of the world, or, at least, what I perceive to be the side you're claiming to be on.
:m:,
Tiassa
I'll uh ... take that on faith?
God works in mysterious ways, Nelson. For whatever reason this pastor went astray, it serves God's needs somehow.
Tadpole Terror
But how to compare this with life?
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the religion of Christianity ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the Democratic Party ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the Republican Party ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the American model of government ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with the Communist Manifesto ....
- To pretend that there's not something fundamentally wrong with teenagers ....
If there was nothing fundamentally wrong about any of us, the world would be peaceful.
Tadpole, there is a point at which we recognize the fundamental unsoundness of various things, but human beings are determined to be fundamentally unsound.
Umm ... how full of bigotry is that? Let me count the ways:
(1) I'm an American; most of my tax dollars go toward trying to force American beliefs and practices on others.
(2) The difference between Christianity and Islam in terms of its savagery toward humanity is that Christians, a few centuries ago, found something that was more important to them than God--money. They may have stopped killing in droves, but if you watch closely, they're still out there trying to force their beliefs on people.
(3) Extremist Muslims were recruited by the West to fight Communism.
(4) After the Cold War, these extremist factions rose to fill the political vacuum left by the collapse of the Red Menace.
(5) Consider that the Taliban, for instance, were recruited by Donald Rumsfeld to fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan.
(6) Have you ever read about the formation of the modern state of Israel?
(7) Maybe if we don't like the heated undercurrent of Muslim conflicts, we shouldn't light fires under them?
Shall I continue? True, we should have left Christianity in the fifteenth, seventeenth, or nineteenth centuries, but we still make excuses for it, and things are gradually getting better. A lot of Americans point to the necessities of warfare, but deny that concept of others. It's necessary that we attack Iraq. They pose a distant but conceivable possible threat to the security of the United States, so we need to prosecute a war. You know, that kind of thinking is a luxury compared to the world. To many Muslims, the Western threats against them are far greater than any ambition of their own. It's all in what side of the line you stand on, but since it's an artificial line, I choose neither. History pretty much indicates that a major temper tantrum out of the Muslim world is a couple decades overdue at least. If we award Islam equal opportunity--that is, forgive its difficulties at least as much as Christianity chose to forgive itself ... well, Christianity never really forgives itself as it rarely sees anything needing forgiveness .... But, at any rate, if we award Islam equal opportunity at least, they'll probably figure it out in less than six-hundred years, which will be ahead of schedule if psychosocial evolution is taken to be constant. I'm lucky--I wasn't paying taxes yet the last time the US murdered hundreds of civilians with a "surgical" strike against a shelter in Iraq. This time I am. If my tax contribution sponsors an atrocity like it did in Afghanistan, I'm just as guilty as any one of the Muslims you would like to imagine is trying to kill you by funneling money to terrorists.
You know, for all the effort people are putting into hating Muslims these days, I'm starting to think that it might just be time for the Western Imperium to begin its decline. Perhaps a couple of centuries with a chill, moderate Europe at the world helm or something, but if the US continues to lead it ....
Remember: George Bush, Sr., Don Rumsfeld, Henry Kissenger, Ronald Reagan ... yeah, probably Clinton and his administration--do you realize how many Americans support terrorism? Remember, the first four there, Dubs, Rummy, Kiss, and Ray-gun, hired the freaking terrorists!
Think of it this way: All of those Christian groups running around the US calling for censorship, Christian rule in public schools, codified bigotry, and so forth ... can you imagine if these bastards were funded by, oh, say, the French? Come on, wouldn't you be pissed?
And when you think about the fact that it would just be a headache at the ballot box in this country, why worry at all? One of the differences there is that the people we've hired in other places kill people instead of just yell and whine a lot.
If you're desperately seeking a reason to hate Islam and Muslims, try finding one that isn't so generally applicable to the rest of the world, or, at least, what I perceive to be the side you're claiming to be on.
:m:,
Tiassa
tiassa,
I don't think so...
Hebrews 10:38
"38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM."
Matthew 24:11-12
"11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. "
I don't think so...
Hebrews 10:38
"38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM."
Matthew 24:11-12
"11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. "
Pretensions?
Truthseeker
Shall we pretend, then, that this pastor's actions are outside God's will? That the deaths of the victims are outside God's authority? Regardless of how God feels about this pastor, it is still His Will that this should occur. If the Lord is the ultimate arbiter, He cannot escape responsibility for the outcome of his workings. Even accounting for free will, it could be that, like Job, the temptation is of God's direct will. Otherwise, the practical foci of God's power--all-seeing, all-judging--become the only aspects there are.
For instance, so much of the Bible becomes comprehensible if we accept that at certain points God was not all-knowing, all-seeing, or all-powerful. For instance, I recognize the possibility that Christ's compassion is derivative of God's learning something about human nature after the fact of Creation. God knows very well that He is responsible for the whole sorry lot. The condition of humanity is God's Will.
The reason for that is a simple consideration: If God, who is the the authority, did "the best He could given the circumstances", God is not all-powerful, because there exists an authority that limits His options. Thus it would seem that the condition of the Universe and poor humanity within it is a choice of God's. And, recognizing whatever compels God to the "necessity" of judgment, His compassion is born of the realization that maybe He should have recalculated the Serpent Factor before He started. If "judgment" is the only way, why? God only knows, but that's part of the problem for our present considerations. But God, who knew of the coming temptation ...? Who knew of human frailty ...?
The temptations put before us are not arbitrary insofar as I understand the God of the Bible. The temptations put before us are the result of God's Will, just as the corruption of our consciences that allows us to succumb to sin is the result of God's Will. God's compassion is justice only in the context that God knows He F--ked Up.
If he really believes that Christ shall save him, will he be saved? Some speculate that God is lonely in heaven because so few earn redemption. It is for this reason that people remind that faith, and not acts, will bring salvation.
We cannot escape God's hand in this genocidal Christian's choices. We cannot deny the fact that Christian faith, derived from the Bible, can be interpreted in such a repugnant manner.
I might revisit the beginning of this post: Shall we pretend that this pastor's actions are outside God's Will? Why do we not extend that excuse to "Terrorism, Inc."?
This is the day the Lord hath made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.
:m:,
Tiassa
Truthseeker
Shall we pretend, then, that this pastor's actions are outside God's will? That the deaths of the victims are outside God's authority? Regardless of how God feels about this pastor, it is still His Will that this should occur. If the Lord is the ultimate arbiter, He cannot escape responsibility for the outcome of his workings. Even accounting for free will, it could be that, like Job, the temptation is of God's direct will. Otherwise, the practical foci of God's power--all-seeing, all-judging--become the only aspects there are.
For instance, so much of the Bible becomes comprehensible if we accept that at certain points God was not all-knowing, all-seeing, or all-powerful. For instance, I recognize the possibility that Christ's compassion is derivative of God's learning something about human nature after the fact of Creation. God knows very well that He is responsible for the whole sorry lot. The condition of humanity is God's Will.
The reason for that is a simple consideration: If God, who is the the authority, did "the best He could given the circumstances", God is not all-powerful, because there exists an authority that limits His options. Thus it would seem that the condition of the Universe and poor humanity within it is a choice of God's. And, recognizing whatever compels God to the "necessity" of judgment, His compassion is born of the realization that maybe He should have recalculated the Serpent Factor before He started. If "judgment" is the only way, why? God only knows, but that's part of the problem for our present considerations. But God, who knew of the coming temptation ...? Who knew of human frailty ...?
The temptations put before us are not arbitrary insofar as I understand the God of the Bible. The temptations put before us are the result of God's Will, just as the corruption of our consciences that allows us to succumb to sin is the result of God's Will. God's compassion is justice only in the context that God knows He F--ked Up.
If he really believes that Christ shall save him, will he be saved? Some speculate that God is lonely in heaven because so few earn redemption. It is for this reason that people remind that faith, and not acts, will bring salvation.
We cannot escape God's hand in this genocidal Christian's choices. We cannot deny the fact that Christian faith, derived from the Bible, can be interpreted in such a repugnant manner.
I might revisit the beginning of this post: Shall we pretend that this pastor's actions are outside God's Will? Why do we not extend that excuse to "Terrorism, Inc."?
This is the day the Lord hath made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.
:m:,
Tiassa
tiassa,
James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "
James 1:2-4
"2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
James 1:12-16
"12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren."
And then after this last verse, by "coincidence" we have the verse I gave you in the last quote...
Pretend? It IS outside God's will!
God's authority finishes where our free will begins. But if you are a Christian (and by that I mean a true one, not a false prophet), then you can claim God's authority in a situation. For example, if someone is sick, you can claim God's promises for that person to be whole and that person will be made whole. As Christians, we have such authority, because it is given to us through Christ. Unfortunatly, we don't use much, apparently...
No. God is Love, and that's the Law above all Laws. It is even more important to Love then to be right!
God gives only life. Death never comes from Him.
James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "
No. The temptation is not from God, it is from Satan. God allowed Satan to tempt Job for a very good reason:
James 1:2-4
"2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
James 1:12-16
"12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren."
And then after this last verse, by "coincidence" we have the verse I gave you in the last quote...
All that God is is Love.
If you have a pen, does it mean you have to use it always? God can choose. Sometimes He chooses not to know everything and not to have all the power. He Loves us and He gaves us the ability to choose, He us a free will. He wants us to Love Him by our own will. He limits His power and knowledge for our sake. It is not that He can't know and do everything, it is that He chooses wheter to know and do something. He is limitless, but He chooses to limit Himself for our sake.
We made the wrong choices. It is our fault, not His.
God gaves us a choice. We have chosen. He limited His power and His knowledge through us. He wanted us to Love Him by His own choice. Many of us do, and many of us don't.
Well, I said this before and I have to repeat since your error is in the basics of the situation. He didn't tempt us. Satan did. We made a choice. The end.
Yes, it is faith that brings salvation, not works.
Round and round and round and round I go .....
You're in a propaganda loop, Nelson.
Life is difficult enough without God throwing satans about. Not all of us are as blessed as Balaam.
(1) God boasted about Job to Satan. (Pride)
(2) God evaded Satan's proposal to put out His hand, and ordered Satan to torment Job. (Cowardice)
What? It's in the Bible ....
Now, I'll even take a moment to be specific here: Redemption reads like a racket to me: an all-seeing, all-powerful God creates a circumstance which requires redemption of humanity, yet it is somehow out of his power to do it otherwise ....
Ri-ight.
Something can be said to comprise "everything" if you choose to believe that's all there is.
My partner's parents--they never meant to wreck her psyche. It was the farthest thing from their minds. Yet there is no escaping that they were tyrannical parents and generally awful human beings in pursuit of a subjective standard.
But they love her.
So sending her away doesn't matter. Beating her into her teen years doesn't matter. After all, they love her.
Ask yourself a question, Nelson--who was God talking to at Eden? Who are the "us" that humankind becomes like? I never would have gone as far as Blanco in "The Clear Word", who asserts that God is speaking to The Son, because God already knows of humankind's sinful state and already has a plan. I could not have asked Santa Claus for a better example of God's foreknowledge of the disaster at Eden. In other words--God designed us to fall, designed us to require redemption.
God intentionally designed us to fail to live up to His standards.
God is love.
Satan only tempts us because it is God's will. If, for instance, I paid someone to rough you up mafioso-style, am I exonerated from responsibility for your injuries and suffering merely because I did not strike the actual blows?
Is Satan too strong for God to conquer? Or does the Supreme Authority choose to allow Satan to operate?
The Supreme Authority also bears Supreme Responsibility. Trying to acknowledge only the good part of what God gives you is still denying the bad.
So if this pastor really believes Jesus will save him, then Jesus will save him. Otherwise, Heaven's an awfully empty place.
But you still seem to miss the comparative point: Muslims can tell me the same thing about their own extremist brethren that you do about this Christian preacher. That either side is able to construct such results out of the faith is indicative of problems, but God works in mysterious ways, and it is not my place to say that "massacre" doesn't equal "love" in God's dictionary. I'm sure He loved the Amalekites. And the Sodomites. We know he dug the guy who wanted his daughters to be gang-raped.
But here I am twaddling around in the Old Testament while you're talking about Jesus. Oh, yeah ... too bad about those prophets.
:m:,
Tiassa
Just like at Eden? Just like with Job?
So much for the prophets.
So what we should do, then, is ignore all the false prophets and only think of the "true Christians"? Why not make NAMBLA's day and ignore all the actual abuse in order to point out those few young boys who like the sexual contact? In either case, what cannot be denied is the dichotomy between the expression and the reality. NAMBLA would like us to believe that it's about "love". So would Christians.
This despite Biblical precedent ....
You're in a propaganda loop, Nelson.
Hello? Hello? You're fading out, Nelson.
Just like Eden. God was not strong enough to prevent temptation, or else willed that the temptation should occur.
Life is difficult enough without God throwing satans about. Not all of us are as blessed as Balaam.
Hubris and cowardice?
(1) God boasted about Job to Satan. (Pride)
(2) God evaded Satan's proposal to put out His hand, and ordered Satan to torment Job. (Cowardice)
What? It's in the Bible ....
Tell that to Samuel and Agag. Or maybe Lot's daughters.
Thus, it is by God's will. And it is a failure of compassion to choose apathy, and thus a failure of love.
God knew that Adam and Eve would choose wrong. It was part of the plan.
Now, I'll even take a moment to be specific here: Redemption reads like a racket to me: an all-seeing, all-powerful God creates a circumstance which requires redemption of humanity, yet it is somehow out of his power to do it otherwise ....
Ri-ight.
Something can be said to comprise "everything" if you choose to believe that's all there is.
That's a little bit ... airy. Keep insisting, though.
My partner's parents--they never meant to wreck her psyche. It was the farthest thing from their minds. Yet there is no escaping that they were tyrannical parents and generally awful human beings in pursuit of a subjective standard.
But they love her.
So sending her away doesn't matter. Beating her into her teen years doesn't matter. After all, they love her.
Ask yourself a question, Nelson--who was God talking to at Eden? Who are the "us" that humankind becomes like? I never would have gone as far as Blanco in "The Clear Word", who asserts that God is speaking to The Son, because God already knows of humankind's sinful state and already has a plan. I could not have asked Santa Claus for a better example of God's foreknowledge of the disaster at Eden. In other words--God designed us to fall, designed us to require redemption.
God intentionally designed us to fail to live up to His standards.
God is love.
Nelson, why don't you please go out and learn your Bible?
Satan only tempts us because it is God's will. If, for instance, I paid someone to rough you up mafioso-style, am I exonerated from responsibility for your injuries and suffering merely because I did not strike the actual blows?
Is Satan too strong for God to conquer? Or does the Supreme Authority choose to allow Satan to operate?
The Supreme Authority also bears Supreme Responsibility. Trying to acknowledge only the good part of what God gives you is still denying the bad.
Now, you and I generally agree--I know this from past discussions--that true faith should bring a certain general pattern of behavior. Alas, this is not the case in history. And what is true faith? I can make the same agreement with another person and s/he will tell me a different truth than you.
So if this pastor really believes Jesus will save him, then Jesus will save him. Otherwise, Heaven's an awfully empty place.
But you still seem to miss the comparative point: Muslims can tell me the same thing about their own extremist brethren that you do about this Christian preacher. That either side is able to construct such results out of the faith is indicative of problems, but God works in mysterious ways, and it is not my place to say that "massacre" doesn't equal "love" in God's dictionary. I'm sure He loved the Amalekites. And the Sodomites. We know he dug the guy who wanted his daughters to be gang-raped.
But here I am twaddling around in the Old Testament while you're talking about Jesus. Oh, yeah ... too bad about those prophets.
:m:,
Tiassa
Shia worshippers killed in Pakistan
I think your answer might be here!
A police officer said the unidentified attackers had opened fire at the entrance of the Imam Bargha just as worshippers were arriving for evening prayers.
No group has yet admitted responsibility for the attack.
But violence between opposing militants from the majority Sunni and minority Shia communities has claimed hundred of lives in Pakistan in recent years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2790493.stm
I think your answer might be here!
A police officer said the unidentified attackers had opened fire at the entrance of the Imam Bargha just as worshippers were arriving for evening prayers.
No group has yet admitted responsibility for the attack.
But violence between opposing militants from the majority Sunni and minority Shia communities has claimed hundred of lives in Pakistan in recent years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2790493.stm
tiassa,
PS: After answering the whole thread, I wonder if you know enough about the Bible... so let me ask you a question...
Bible Trivia: What is the smallest verse in the Bible?
Answer in the end of the post. And be really honest. Don't go and look for it...
1 John 4:7-8
"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. "
Pretty straighforward.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
"8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."
Again, pretty straughforward...
Luke 17:21
"21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
James 1:2-4
"2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. "
James 1:13-17
"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "
It seems I'm becoming repetitive...
God's conversation with Satan (kinda interesting imagine it...):
Job 1:7-12
"7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 " But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
12 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. "
Did He boasted? I don't think so. All that He did was to tell Satan about Job. Satan told Him that he was going around earth and he would certainly have noted Job.
Also, nothing to do with your quote... but since we are here, read the last verse. It is very clear that God allowed Satan to tempt Job.
Again, James 1:2-4 (read above, please. I have posted it too many times...).
Still... what about Abraham, Sarah, Noah, Issac, Jacob, Esau, Joseph, Solomon, Moses, David, Elijah, Enoch, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, Samuel and all those who trusted God?
You are distorting scripture for the sake of your argument and that is a blasphemy agaisnt the Word of God.
You can be sure I cannot be very happy with that. I'm not mad at you, but really... be very careful with how you talk about God with me... and don't even think of changing and playing with the scriptures.
"31 The horse is prepared for the day of battle, But victory belongs to the LORD.
1 Corinthians 15:57
"57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. "
James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "
Matthew 24:11
"11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. "
Answer for Bible trivia:
John 11:35
"35 Jesus wept."
PS: After answering the whole thread, I wonder if you know enough about the Bible... so let me ask you a question...
Bible Trivia:
What is the smallest verse in the Bible?Answer in the end of the post. And be really honest. Don't go and look for it...
Yes.
What do you mean by that?
1 John 4:7-8
"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. "
Pretty straighforward.
No, it is the exact opposite.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
"8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."
Again, pretty straughforward...
God is here. Within me and surrounding me.
Luke 17:21
"21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
James 1:2-4
"2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
4 And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. "
James 1:13-17
"13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "
It seems I'm becoming repetitive...
Excuse me...
God's conversation with Satan (kinda interesting imagine it...
):Job 1:7-12
"7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it."
8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
11 " But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face."
12 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. "
Did He boasted? I don't think so. All that He did was to tell Satan about Job. Satan told Him that he was going around earth and he would certainly have noted Job.
Also, nothing to do with your quote... but since we are here, read the last verse. It is very clear that God allowed Satan to tempt Job.
Read it again. God said: "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do NOT put forth your hand on him." Without God allowing Satan to test Job's faith, Satan would have no power.
Again, James 1:2-4 (read above, please. I have posted it too many times...).
Please, cite scripture. I don't have a very good memory... It is really hard to remember the whole Old Testament.
Still... what about Abraham, Sarah, Noah, Issac, Jacob, Esau, Joseph, Solomon, Moses, David, Elijah, Enoch, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, Samuel and all those who trusted God?
tiassa... I have just said how He Loves us so much... why do you keep running away from it...?
No, He didn't.God gave them a choice. 50% and 50%.
Satan made it, not God. God only allows Satan to tempt us so that we can have more. Without our Love for Him being tested, we would never really Love Him.
This is not love. You show Love through your actions.
God wanted us to choose to Love Him or not.
When we chose to believe in Satan's lies, our nature became sinful. God didn't make our nature sinful, it was us that made our nature that way because we chose to do so. God gave us clear knowledge NOT TO EAT FROM THE DAMN TREE!! We ate from the DAMN TREE from ignorance. We didn't Trust Him because we didn't Love Him enough to Trust Him. Therefore, it is NOT God's fault that we are sinful, but Satan's fault to have deceived us and our fault to have believed Him instead of believing in God.
Yes, He is.
Excuse me. You read the Bbile and read it carefully. What about the Job discussion earlier? You said that God "evaded Satan's proposal to put out His hand, and ordered Satan to torment Job" and the scripture clearly states that God said: "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him."
You are distorting scripture for the sake of your argument and that is a blasphemy agaisnt the Word of God.
You can be sure I cannot be very happy with that. I'm not mad at you, but really... be very careful with how you talk about God with me... and don't even think of changing and playing with the scriptures.
We have a choice to receive the persecution or not. Without persecution, trials and temptations we wouldn't grow up spiritually as fast as without them. Please, read James 1.
Proverbs 21:31
"31 The horse is prepared for the day of battle, But victory belongs to the LORD.
1 Corinthians 15:57
"57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. "
Are you kidding you want me to say it again...?
Nothing bad comes from Him.
James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "
Read Hebrews 11......
He is probably not a Christian at all...
Matthew 24:11
"11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. "
No. There is too much hatred there. It is pretty hard to believe they have such scripture such as "love one another". I've never seen one of those...:bugeye:
We are under New Testament covenant, so I focus on the New Testament.
Answer for Bible trivia:
John 11:35
"35 Jesus wept."
Enough with the bible quotes...
The bible holds no power unless you believe that it does.
The bible saying it does not make it so.
The bible contradics itself, quotes are not to be trusted from the bible.
The bible has many interpretations.
If you want to reference the bible, link to the passage and just give your interpretation. Others do not always read the same things into it as you will.
The bible holds no power unless you believe that it does.
The bible saying it does not make it so.
The bible contradics itself, quotes are not to be trusted from the bible.
The bible has many interpretations.
If you want to reference the bible, link to the passage and just give your interpretation. Others do not always read the same things into it as you will.
While back Tyler posted a very good reponse to what you just said. Let me just sum it up for you. It is the time you are living in. 50 years ago Germans had that title and before that some one else might. Again it is your time, it just the time where you see more conflicts involving muslims. So get used to it. Soon or later it will go away and something else will take its place and you all can whine about that.