islam is the truest way of life

[S.A.M.]

There is no problem with the Sunni or Shia split. Its like saying why is there a Republican and Democrat split? Its perfectly acceptable to have differing opinions on how governments should be run. Its also interesting because the Shia-Sunni split was whether Ali should inherit the role of leadership [Shia] being related to Mohammed or whether the most meritorious person in the group should be the next leader [Sunni]. Today we have Iran electing Presidents and Saudi Arabia with a kingdom.

 

[joepistole]

So is Iran an example of a perfect Islamic state?

And I don't want you to think I am picking on Islam. Christianity has the same issues.

 

[S.A.M.]

In terms of the fact that they spend less on military and more on maintaining social stability, yes. In terms of that the cleric dictate to the government instead of following a consultative method, no. According to the Quran, no one should decide what the other persons religion should be. So if the clerics repress anyone for having opinions they disagree with, they are being anti-Islamic.

However even under severe sanctions, the Iranian government is stable and has been for 25 years, because on the whole it works for the people. The Islamic government reduced military expenditure frm 25% under the Shah to 4% and spends it on social programs instead.

Note that unlike the Saudis and Kuwaitis, they do not support dictatorships and nor do they support anything but defensive war. While the Gulf countries spend on offensive weaponry, Irans military technology is dedicated to anti-aircraft and anti-tank and anti-sub missiles. This is the Islamically correct position, ie to defend oneself, not to attack others.

 

[joepistole]

But why would God charge the protection of his holiest sites to infidels and those that do not practice Islam as revealed by God to Mohammad?

 

[S.A.M.]

The holiest sites etc is just a focal point for prayer. It can be any place on earth. Until the Sauds captured Hejaz and knocked down many of the Islamic hisorical sites it was not even restricted or a big deal. Now its a great tourist spot and the Saudis make a lot of money from it.

Besides, in Islam God is formless, nameless and genderless, its not some old guy turning tricks in the sky. People are responsible for their own actions.

 

[-ND-]

No, they haven't lost it. They have finally found it and are beinging to break free of your lie of god.

Lol. The only thing these scientist found, was a big hole to dig even deeper so they can fit all the fools that believe their shite. You my friend are at the bottom of the pit, that means you are not losing, you are already lost.

 

[swarm]

You cannot show that Islam yeilds better results than any other religion. And the bottom line is you cannot find anything that makes Islam any better or any worse than any other religion.

Scientists say they have evidence to show that Buddhists really are happier and calmer than other people
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, they have the second highest suicide rates, after athiests.

 

[swarm]

The only thing these scientist found

I'm endlessly amused by Luddites complaining of science by computer over the internet! :roflmao:

What science has found is real and it let's us work actual miracles. What have you? Nothing. Even your holy book is printed via science's discoveries. You are a parasite.

 

[lightgigantic]

Scientists say they have evidence to show that Buddhists really are happier and calmer than other people
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3047291.stm

Tests carried out in the United States reveal that areas of their brain associated with good mood and positive feelings are more active.

The findings come as another study suggests that Buddhist meditation can help to calm people.

Golly

what does this say about america being the best place to cultivate a good mood and positive feelings?

I recall WHO statistics that always land 3rd world economies (eg mexico bangladesh) as leading the pack in terms of happiness

 

[iceaura]

Anyone who thinks its unimportant to read the original text and go by what other people say about it is stupid.

Interpretations vary, even among the "intelligent". I've met Quranic scholars who believe in all manner of miraculous events - for one, that the entire original Quran was dictated to Mohammed by an angel. For another, that Noah and his ark saved the animals of the earth from a planetary flood.

You cannot show that Islam yeilds better results than any other religion
”
Of course you can. When its correctly followed, it converts tribal uneducated illiterate nomads following blood fueds into rational thinkers who establish thriving economies and stable egalitarian societies.

Christianity has done that dozens of times. According to the Christians who wrote the histories, afterwards, of course.

btw: "Egalitarian" and "hierarchical, theocratic, monarchical, imperialistic, misogynistic, and slave trading" normally describe somewhat different general setups in society.

Since Islam is a meritocracy that works by consultation, kings are contradictory to it. Kings and sultans have existed in Islam only when the clergy have been lax in their duty or have misdirected the people. Or when people have ignored what the Quran says.

So say they all - somewhere, somehow, there is the real religion, soon to return as in the fabled past, and all this that the world must deal with meantime is a perversion that is not real Islam, Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, etc.

But the notion that the people engaged in this false Islam, this 99% of all Muslims living benighted lives in non-egalitarian societies that misrepresent the real Islam, are ignoring the Quran, is demonstrably false. They quote that book all the time. They maintain a cadre of professional interpretors of it. They revere it. They often seem obsessed with it. They are not ignoring it.

Islam has never "split".

Islam has split quite obviously - into Sufi, Shia, Sunni, etc. Those are splits - that's what religious splits look like.

There are no Muslims who do not believe that there is one God and Mohammed is his messenger [the shahada]

So they split over something else. It's usually something that looks trivial to an outsider, like which nephew of some Prophet was the holiest one. It turns to bloodshed over time.

No one can claim that their way is the only or the right way.

Well they have, they do, and they will.

 

[joepistole]

I think if you believe Islam. You have to believe that the religon established by Mohammad was perfect as it came from God.

But the the perfect religion disentegrated into many variants (it happened to Christianity too) with each variant claiming to be the true religion...the original. Therefore it seems to me that the supposition, "Islam is the truest way" is incorrect. It brings into question, which form of Islam is the truest way? Does anyone even know how the original religion was practiced?

 

[S.A.M.]

The perfect religion is one which is simple enough for those who need it to be and can go as far as you need it to. Not everyone is interested in the same things in life. All the variants of Islam fall within the same simple framework. You decide what it should be.

 

[joepistole]

The perfect religion is one which is simple enough for those who need it to be and can go as far as you need it to. Not everyone is interested in the same things in life. All the variants of Islam fall within the same simple framework. You decide what it should be.

I would submit to you that there are many religions and they all fall within the same simple framework.

I would submit to you that there are many religions that can lead one to the same place. The path traveled may vary, but the destination should lead to the same place...a place closer to God.

 

[DiamondHearts]

This is always the most difficult issue for Non-Muslims grasping Islam. They don't yet realize what Islam is. Islam is not just a religion, from Muslim perspective, it is the divine law. God created the universe with Islam, the scientific, mathematical, social, and spiritual, along with the material realms, are all governed by the laws of Islam. Just as humans cannot surpass gravity on Earth, so to is it impossible to surpass Islam. Merely being subject to the laws of God (Islam), makes everyone Muslim, whether they accept it or not. However, Allah swt further defines it that only those who willingly embrace God as Muslims, shall receive His reward in this life and the next, whereas the rest of the people (those who reject God, yet are inevitably governed by His laws regardless) will only enjoy the rewards from God in this life. Islam exists regardless and independent of whether humans, animals, plants, or the Earth exist. It is ultimate truth.

 

[GeoffP]

This is always the most difficult issue for Non-unicorns grasping unicornism. They don't yet realize what unicornism is. unicornism is not just a religion, from unicorn perspective, it is the divine law. God created the universe with unicornism, the scientific, mathematical, social, and spiritual, along with the material realms, are all governed by the laws of unicornism. Just as humans cannot surpass gravity on Earth, so to is it impossible to surpass unicornism. Merely being subject to the laws of God (unicornism), makes everyone unicorn, whether they accept it or not. However, Allah swt further defines it that only those who willingly embrace God as unicorns, shall receive His reward in this life and the next, whereas the rest of the people (those who reject God, yet are inevitably governed by His laws regardless) will only enjoy the rewards from God in this life. unicornism exists regardless and independent of whether humans, animals, plants, or the Earth exist. It is ultimate truth.

 

[joepistole]

This is always the most difficult issue for Non-Muslims grasping Islam. They don't yet realize what Islam is. Islam is not just a religion, from Muslim perspective, it is the divine law. God created the universe with Islam, the scientific, mathematical, social, and spiritual, along with the material realms, are all governed by the laws of Islam. Just as humans cannot surpass gravity on Earth, so to is it impossible to surpass Islam. Merely being subject to the laws of God (Islam), makes everyone Muslim, whether they accept it or not. However, Allah swt further defines it that only those who willingly embrace God as Muslims, shall receive His reward in this life and the next, whereas the rest of the people (those who reject God, yet are inevitably governed by His laws regardless) will only enjoy the rewards from God in this life. Islam exists regardless and independent of whether humans, animals, plants, or the Earth exist. It is ultimate truth.

Diamond Hearts, this is the most difficult issue for relgious people period to under stand. Other religions view their religion just as you view yours. So what makes yours different from the others? And you have not been able to site anything that makes yours different from the others. Christians and Jews feel the same way as you do about Islam and they were religions that preceeded yours by hundreds and in the case of Judiasim, thousands of years.

 

[S.A.M.]

I would submit to you that there are many religions and they all fall within the same simple framework.

I would submit to you that there are many religions that can lead one to the same place. The path traveled may vary, but the destination should lead to the same place...a place closer to God.

You just told me the basic precept of Islam

.... the Quran insisted that its message was simply a "reminder" of truths that everybody knew. This was the primordial faith that had been preached to the whole of humanity by the prophets of the past. God had not left human beings in ignorance about the way they should live: he had sent messengers to every people on the face of the earth. Islamic tradition would later assert that there had been 124,000 such prophets, a symbolic number suggesting infinity. All had brought their people a divinely inspired scripture; they might express the truths of God's religion differently, but essentially the message was always the same. Now at last God had sent the Quraysh a prophet and a scripture. Constantly the Quran points out that Muhammad had not come to cancel the older religions, to contradict their prophets or to start a new faith. His message is the same as that of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, or Jesus. The Quran mentions only those prophets who were known to the Arabs, but today Muslim scholars argue that had Muhammad known about the Buddhists or Hindus, Australian Aborigines or Native Americans, the Quran would have endorsed their sages too, because all rightly guided religion that submitted wholly to God, refused to worship man-made deities and preached that justice and equality came from the same divine source. Hence Muhammad never asked Jews or Christians to accept Islam, unless they particularly wished to do so, because they had received perfectly valid revelations of their own. The Quran insists strongly that "there shall be no coercion in matters of faith," and commands Muslims to respect the beliefs of Jews and Christians, whom the Quran calls ahl al-kitab, a phrase usually translated "People of the Book" but which is more accurately rendered "people of an earlier revelation" ....


Source

 

[GeoffP]

You just told me the basic precept of Islam

And every other religion.

 

[S.A.M.]

Of course, its all the same

"Mankind is a single nation. So Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners. . ." (2:213)

"And those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, to them He will grant their rewards." (4:152)

"And certainly We raised in every nation a messenger, saying: Serve Allah and shun evil." (16:36)