Islam In Europe

[abu_afak]

Muslim Medical Students get Picky
Daniel Foggo and Abul Taher
timesonline.co.UK

Some Muslim medical students are refusing to attend lectures or answer exam questions on alcohol-related or sexually transmitted diseases because they claim it offends their religious beliefs.

Some trainee doctors say learning to treat the diseases conflicts with their faith, which states that Muslims should not drink alcohol and rejects sexual promiscuity.

A small number of Muslim medical students have even refused to treat patients of the opposite sex. One male student was prepared to fail his final exams rather than carry out a basic examination of a female patient.

The religious objections by students have been confirmed by the British Medical Association (BMA) and General Medical Council (GMC), which both stressed that they did not approve of such actions.

It will intensify the debate sparked last week by the disclosure that Sainsbury’s is permitting Muslim checkout operators to refuse to handle customers’ alcohol purchases on religious grounds. It means other members of staff have to be called over to scan in wine and beer for them at the till.

Critics, including many Islamic scholars, see the concessions as a step too far, and say Muslims are reneging on their professional responsibilities.

This weekend, however, it emerged that Sainsbury’s is also allowing its Muslim pharmacists to Refuse to sell the morning-after pill to customers...."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article2603966.ece

 

[abu_afak]

THE DEATH OF A MUSLIM WOMAN

"The Whore Lived Like a German"
By Jody K. Biehl in Berlin
Der Spiegel

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members. Their crime? Trying to break free and live Western lifestyles. Within their communities, the killers are revered as heroes for preserving their family dignity.
How can such a horrific and shockingly archaic practice be flourishing in the heart of Europe? The deaths have sparked momentary outrage, but will they change the grim reality for Muslim women?

The shots came from nowhere and within minutes the young Turkish mother standing at the Berlin bus stop was dead. A telephone call from a relative had brought her to this cold, unforgiving place. She thought she would only be gone for a few minutes and wore a light jacket in the freezing February wind. She had left her five-year-old son asleep in his bed. He awoke looking for his mother, who, like many Turkish women in Germany, harbored a secret life of fear, courage and, ultimately, grief. Now her little boy has his own tragedy to bear: His mother, Hatin Surucu, was not the victim of random violence, but likely died at the hands of her own family in what is known as an "honor killing."

Hatin's crime, it appears, was the desire to lead a normal life in her family's adopted land. The vivacious 23-year-old beauty, who was raised in Berlin, divorced the Turkish cousin she was forced to marry at age 16. She also discarded her Islamic head scarf, enrolled in a technical school where she was training to become an electrician and began dating German men. For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways. Days after the crime, police arrested her three brothers, ages 25, 24 and 18. The youngest of the three allegedly bragged to his girlfriend about the Feb. 7 killing. At her funeral, Hakin's Turkish-Kurdish parents draped their only daughter's casket in verses from the Koran and buried her according to Muslim tradition. Absent of course, were the brothers, who were in jail.

The crime might be easier to digest if it had been an archaic anomaly, but five other Muslim women have been murdered in Berlin during the past four months by their husbands or partners for besmirching the family's Muslim honor.
Two of them were stabbed to death in front of their young children, one was shot, one strangled and a fifth drowned. It seems hard to fathom, but in the middle of democratic Western Europe -- in Germany, a nation where pacifism is almost a universal mantra -- murderous macho patriotism not only exists but also appears to be thriving. It may even be Germany's liberalism -- and its post World War II fear of criticizing minority cultures -- that has encouraged ultra-religious families to settle here...."

Link above

 

[Michael]

abu_afak,

1) Fire the checkout clerk.
2) Fail the students.
3) Revoke the license from the Pharmacist.
4) Revoke the license from the Physician.

Problem solved,
Michael

 

[Michael]

As to paragraph #2, as I have said over and over, Europeans need to pull their heads from their collective arses and institute a mandatory archaeological based religous history class beginning in grade 1 through to grade 12. It's amazing what education can do to a person's superstitious beliefs.

 

[Michael]

It doesn't matter what I think.

It may not matter what you think as in it may not effect the Law but I want to know what your opinion is on the question of a Muslim converting a child of another faith to Islam.

Well?

Do you think that a Muslim should go to prison for converting a child to Islam?


It's a straightforward question,
Michael

 

[Michael]

You are the one who did that simplistic translation.
You should come to the lawmaker seat to see the real problems. Had not them made the law, things would be out of control, could be worse.

Isn't it ironic that both Christianity and Islam say they are about peace and in theory anyone should have the ability to make their own "free will" decision as to what fairytale they want to believe ... but in reality children have no freewill and will believe whatever bullshit they are taught (hence the law that only parents can brainwash their children) and Christianity and Islam are far from peaceful.

That said, I wonder how many Indonesian Buddhists and Hindu attack and cut off the heads of Muslims and Christians while chanting Buddha is Great!! .. Buddha is Great!! or some such thing?

 

[Michael]

Wow GeoffP that was a very sad story.
Very sad.

But what could one expect, if there is no possibility, the possibility can not even exist, of ones beleif being wrong then anything is sanctioned. The imprisonment of "infidels", the taxing of "infidels", the murder of "infidels", the forced circumcision of "infidels" the conversion of "infidels" burning down their places of worship, murder, intimidation, rape ... ... It's truely a mental sickness. These people were all part of one nation. This wasn't a grab at resources or a "defensive" war of conquest - it was plain out savage murder in the name of a f*cking fairytale God. And not even an Indonesian God but an Arabic one?!?!
Just crazy.



I remember one person wrote something like: So what if one art form was lost what does it matter?


It's truely a mental sickness.

 

[Michael]

Lastly,

In regards to Islam in Europe - what is one really good novel idea that Islam brings with it to Europe?

Polygamy?
The Burka?
The chunky Arab named Mohammad was the Last Prophet?
Walk around a square stone in Mecca get free Bebsi in Paradise?

While I know there are a lot of yummy foods that come from the Middle East, these are hardly "Islamic" they're just good food from various cultures. What I'm wondering is: What does Islam bring that's good for Europe? Anything? Nothing?

 

[Michael]

Hey the Burka does have some uses

 

[Michael]

Hey baby you look HOT in that Burka!
Nice gloves too!

 

[LiveInFaith]

GeoffP,
The reports in Molucca (Maluku in Indonesian), I wouldn't say it was not true, I just say it was half of the facts. I was there at some time in the year 2002, I saw the ruins, both in muslims' and christians' areas. I spoke to some muslims and some Christians. That story would be what you hear from Christians.
I could see the impression resulted from reading the story. It was that (half of the facts) story meant to be. If you believe that story is that's all is, then be it. You had made up your mind.

You know, this omes up a fair bit whenever I slam political religion. Show me how I "twisted your words". Or tell me what you meant by seemingly defending prison sentences for prosetylization on the basis of "annoyed" parents. And illustrate to me where any muslim in Indonesia - or in any other islamic country in the world - has been charged for preaching to non-muslims. The smell of it is that you don't like the thought of people preaching something other than islam, and I'm willing to be it's an accurate impression.

I'd said my reason. Climate is not good so the state should take action to prevent such trouble. The Maluku case was the example, things run out of control.
I have no problem with people preaching.
As I knew, I never found muslim preach to non-muslim, especially kid, more especially without consent of the parents. (But I should say there are public preaching on TV, all religions do, that's legal).

I believe that answers your direct question. There is hardly any need to preach, when one may simply forcibly convert the population altogether. If this happens in the outlying districts, I wonder what it's like in the cities?

The Maluku case was not preaching, that happened in such situation, not normal, under such emergency situation when life was at stake. In normal living, I've never found any.
But if you take it (forcing convertion) as the normal case , generalizing abnormal state as common practice, I take it that way you think, so you do.

So your society is protecting the Christians from themselves? How about instead, the state concentrates on educating such people so that they don't go out and attack others?

They are working on it. Your media don't bother to make report on that.

 

[LiveInFaith]

It may not matter what you think as in it may not effect the Law but I want to know what your opinion is on the question of a Muslim converting a child of another faith to Islam.

Well?

Do you think that a Muslim should go to prison for converting a child to Islam?


It's a straightforward question,
Michael

Put charge on that muslim, prosecute him upto 5 years. Let the trial decide.

 

[LiveInFaith]

Isn't it ironic that both Christianity and Islam say they are about peace and in theory anyone should have the ability to make their own "free will" decision as to what fairytale they want to believe ... but in reality children have no freewill and will believe whatever bullshit they are taught (hence the law that only parents can brainwash their children) and Christianity and Islam are far from peaceful.

Well... every state determines age of consent, regardless religion.

 

[Michael]

Put charge on that muslim, prosecute him upto 5 years. Let the trial decide.

Well it's good to see you are even handed.

 

[Michael]

GeoffP,
The reports in Molucca (Maluku in Indonesian), I wouldn't say it was not true, I just say it was half of the facts. I was there at some time in the year 2002, I saw the ruins, both in muslims' and christians' areas. I spoke to some muslims and some Christians. That story would be what you hear from Christians.
I could see the impression resulted from reading the story. It was that (half of the facts) story meant to be. If you believe that story is that's all is, then be it. You had made up your mind.



I'd said my reason. Climate is not good so the state should take action to prevent such trouble. The Maluku case was the example, things run out of control.
I have no problem with people preaching.
As I knew, I never found muslim preach to non-muslim, especially kid, more especially without consent of the parents. (But I should say there are public preaching on TV, all religions do, that's legal).



The Maluku case was not preaching, that happened in such situation, not normal, under such emergency situation when life was at stake. In normal living, I've never found any.
But if you take it (forcing convertion) as the normal case , generalizing abnormal state as common practice, I take it that way you think, so you do.



They are working on it. Your media don't bother to make report on that.

I know this was to GeoffP but I couldn't help wondering. Doesn't this sort of tell you something about the effects Islam and Christianity have on people. Sure sometimes things are a matter of conquest or a matter of resources but in this instance this is purely about a matter of killing people for not sharing the same beleif. Christianity and Islam has such a long history of killing one another. From Spain to the Middle East all the way over to the south east pacific.

While the Buddhists and Hindus may have had some small skirmishes, I do not think it even comes any where near the violence perpetrated by Christians and Muslims in the name of thier beliefs. Even within the beleif there is so much violence, just look at the wars within Christianity and the killing within Islam.


It's no coincidence that Europe emerged from the "Dark Ages" after reducing the role of Christianity in their political (and many time personal) lives.

Take a look at political Islam in the Middle East. Look at KSA or at Iran. Look at the role of women in Afghanistan or at the bloody Shia rituals in Lebanon. Think about the horrible effects discriminating on, and taxing people for, their personal beleif. Yeah, the story of the Christians being massacred is horrendous, I don't think that in a Majority Muslim country that the Muslims got the worse of it - at least not this time around.

Christianity and Islam are as two peas in a pod and when even a liberal monotheists can not admit that even the possibility may exist that someone else's ideas about the World and the Gods may be correct - well it seems pretty clear to me where the problem lays,

Michael

 

[ashpwner]

no problems with muslims but i do disliek how they seem to recive special treatment.

 

[LiveInFaith]

I know this was to GeoffP but I couldn't help wondering. Doesn't this sort of tell you something about the effects Islam and Christianity have on people. Sure sometimes things are a matter of conquest or a matter of resources but in this instance this is purely about a matter of killing people for not sharing the same beleif. Christianity and Islam has such a long history of killing one another. From Spain to the Middle East all the way over to the south east pacific.

The Maluku case triggered by a quarrel on the street. Two people fought hard on the street, unfortunately, one was Muslim the other Christian. Sensitivity of Islam-Christian issue, so yes... a little provocation was more than enough to burn both side into a big fight.

It's no coincidence that Europe emerged from the "Dark Ages" after reducing the role of Christianity in their political (and many time personal) lives.

Well... There was sometime Muslims had such a progressive in science. Religion maybe dogmatic, but scientific development doesn't have to be discontinued just because people embrace religion(s).

Christianity and Islam are as two peas in a pod and when even a liberal monotheists can not admit that even the possibility may exist that someone else's ideas about the World and the Gods may be correct - well it seems pretty clear to me where the problem lays,

Michael

Many Muslims and Christians think that way. I don't.
I believe Christians and Muslims (and Buddhist and Hindu as well) sourced from the same entity, have the same God. Only the teachings had been ajusted suitable to the world of each religious community. And these difference(s) tend to go toward 'mine is better than yours", it reaches extreme level between Christian and Muslim, each says "I am right, you are wrong", "I am good, you are evil", "I will go to heaven, you will be burnt in hell".

However, siding (put oneself in such group) is natural instinct , we are social entity. Once one be sided in such group, fanatism is potentially grown, regardless religion.

 

[Michael]

The Maluku case triggered by a quarrel on the street. Two people fought hard on the street, unfortunately, one was Muslim the other Christian. Sensitivity of Islam-Christian issue, so yes... a little provocation was more than enough to burn both side into a big fight.

Unlike Buddhism and Hinduism monotheism breads intolerance (and in a sense outright teaches intolerance). I think History will prove no other beleif has resulting in so many people being murdered. Christians killing Christians, Muslims killing Muslims, Christians killing Muslims, Muslims killing Christians, Christians and Muslims killing any one who is not a fellow Christians or Muslims. .. ... ..

The Maluku case is one in a long long LONG line of murders in the name of this middle eastern God... ...

Well... There was sometime Muslims had such a progressive in science. Religion maybe dogmatic, but scientific development doesn't have to be discontinued just because people embrace religion(s).

Scientific developments did continue to occur in societies that are monotheistic, including Islamic, but not at the same pace or novelty as that of polytheists.

I'd also like to note Islamic nations completely lost the ability to produce the human form in art. Which I personally find sad. But, anyway, yes you are right, people did make some advances in sciences - albeit at a much slower pace.

I'm not sure if you know it or not, but when Christianity took total power in Europe the Europeans ended up using Arabic translations of Greek work to rediscover their own inventiveness because they had lost all translations and when Islam took total power over the ME the Middle Easterns ended up using Latin translations of their Arabic work to rediscover their own inventiveness because they had lost all of those translations!

See what happens when people seriously believe this monotheism? First they kill or convert everyone and then when they convert everyone they stagnate and regress backwards. Again, just look at the regression of the human form in art for confirmation. (basically just search for the human form in sculpture or paint in Islamic countries - not much there)

However, siding (put oneself in such group) is natural instinct , we are social entity. Once one be sided in such group, fanatism is potentially grown, regardless religion.

This may be true but I find monotheists tend to be more fanatical than polytheists anyway. I never read about Buddhist running into packed bars and blowing themselves along with everyone else up - even though many Buddhist countries are poor and conservative and have crap leaders (like Burma).

Monotheism really brings the worse out in people.....


Let me ask you this. You said that Buddhists come from the same source, that being God, though their beleif may differ. Most Buddhists I know believe that there may be Gods and Goddesses but like you and I they are also trapped in the Karma Cycle and to truely reach your fulfilled state is to become a Buddha. So in a sense they already encompass your beleif naturally within their own. Is it possible that they are correct and your God is simply trapped within the Karma Cycle along with everyone else?

 

[LiveInFaith]

Unlike Buddhism and Hinduism monotheism breads intolerance (and in a sense outright teaches intolerance). I think History will prove no other beleif has resulting in so many people being murdered. Christians killing Christians, Muslims killing Muslims, Christians killing Muslims, Muslims killing Christians, Christians and Muslims killing any one who is not a fellow Christians or Muslims. .. ... ..

The Maluku case is one in a long long LONG line of murders in the name of this middle eastern God... ...

Sad facts.
But I wouldn't say those were done in the name of God. Self righteousness, group cohesion and fanatism, given lust and greed, would cause people even forget about God and the teachings.

Scientific developments did continue to occur in societies that are monotheistic, including Islamic, but not at the same pace or novelty as that of polytheists.

I'd also like to note Islamic nations completely lost the ability to produce the human form in art. Which I personally find sad. But, anyway, yes you are right, people did make some advances in sciences - albeit at a much slower pace.

Irrationality in embracing religion doesn't have to reduce rationality level in scientific development. I don't think one can formulate (irrationality + rationality = 100%). Both have separated portions in human's entity.

I could not say the pace is slower, science develops exponentially, expanding. Several centuries ago, from Greeks', muslims developed science much more, sadly now muslims are stagnant. But it contributes a lot to the speed and spans of modern science which now seems to be held by many atheist scientists. We don't know who will be the frontiers in the coming centuries.

The human form in arts, I don't know why it was sad, but that didn't prevent them to develop medical science and anatomy.

I'm not sure if you know it or not, but when Christianity took total power in Europe the Europeans ended up using Arabic translations of Greek work to rediscover their own inventiveness because they had lost all translations and when Islam took total power over the ME the Middle Easterns ended up using Latin translations of their Arabic work to rediscover their own inventiveness because they had lost all of those translations!

See what happens when people seriously believe this monotheism? First they kill or convert everyone and then when they convert everyone they stagnate and regress backwards. Again, just look at the regression of the human form in art for confirmation. (basically just search for the human form in sculpture or paint in Islamic countries - not much there)

I don't know this. I will try to look it up. But I really don't see correlation between human form in art with those things. If they didn't need it, or didn't want it, why would they make it?

This may be true but I find monotheists tend to be more fanatical than polytheists anyway. I never read about Buddhist running into packed bars and blowing themselves along with everyone else up - even though many Buddhist countries are poor and conservative and have crap leaders (like Burma).

Monotheism really brings the worse out in people.....

I don't know much about Buddhist, only that they search for self cleanliness, independence of external materials, to get along with nature. They won't blow, and the same time they also tend to not become rich. They are not into material richness. We need Buddhist to be our sample of sincerity and cleanliness, but if all us were Buddhist, who would develop our material world, to fulfill our needs of materials (for any reasons)?

Let me ask you this. You said that Buddhists come from the same source, that being God, though their beleif may differ. Most Buddhists I know believe that there may be Gods and Goddesses but like you and I they are also trapped in the Karma Cycle and to truely reach your fulfilled state is to become a Buddha. So in a sense they already encompass your beleif naturally within their own. Is it possible that they are correct and your God is simply trapped within the Karma Cycle along with everyone else?

They maybe correct, the same way I maybe correct, and the same way you maybe as well.
I believe people are different, and should be different. Difference makes us rich, and explorative. Maybe God wants us to see things differently, including God, to be able to explore anything. Uniformity is dull. You must be aware different people can say different things about the same object, that doesn't make one is right and the others are wrong. Not mutually exclusive.

For me, muslim should not feel self righteous among all earth population. While one has to have faith that the teaching is right and the best for oneself, that should not the same for everybody else. Difference should open a window to learn, to see comparative examples, and get benefit of it.

 

[John99]

For me, muslim should not feel self righteous among all earth population. While one has to have faith that the teaching is right and the best for oneself, that should not the same for everybody else. Difference should open a window to learn, to see comparative examples, and get benefit of it.

There is only one way to prove all this. Ask yourself has anyone ever stood up from the first time they could make an intelligent decision and say 'no, this is wrong i am a...' insert you preference, as it was decided for you here.

The truth is what then? go with the flow or rebel and pretend your different.