Islam In Europe

[Arsalan]

I will await your response.

Can you paste those verses here? I think it might be a different verse in my Quran.

How can rebellion to a foreign religion be instigated? For there to be rebellion, there first had to be subjugation.

After the death of the Holy Prophet, some tribes left Islam and began hostilities against the Muslims already there.

Which was, before its invasion, a Christian land, not a muslim one. Again, your example is behind the sequence of events, not before it.

The conquests that took place were to prevent the enemies of Islam from surrounding the countries and therefore being able to attack them from all sides. Not only that but to spread freedom of religion and conscience which was for a large part not that common then. The fact of the matter is that every major empire spreads and when the Islamic empire expanded, the people in those countries gained freedom of religion and conscience and more. After those countries were under Muslim rule they made significant progress and didn’t live in fear of their rulers.

Yes. Eastern Christians and Jews were subjugated, exactly as Sura 9 dictates, and at the intention of Uthman.

Nowhere in Surah 9 does it say to oppress or kill innocent people.

Coptic Christians live in terror not only of the Muslim Brotherhood, but of the authorities. Minority religions were subjected to a steady, increasing pressure to convert or flee.

The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 and therefore has nothing to do with the Khalifa e Rashideen. In fact, in the time of the expansion of the Islamic empire, the Copts sided by the Muslims because they found them better and compassionate rulers.

I suggest you read the tafsir to Sura 9 available from the Muslim Student's Association at the University of Southern California to see the kind of supremacist attitude taken by islam to the conquest of non-muslims.

Why should I read their tafseer? I don’t even know who they are. If I want to read a tafsir I’ll read the tafseers of the great Imams and Mujaddids.

Yet, the purpose of such conquest is also to exterminate their religion and culture, according to the tafsir for Sura 9.

I disagree. I suggest you prove this from the verses of Surah 9

In practice, dhimmis have usually had little legal protection and were the subjects for extortion in the Ottoman empire for hundreds of years via jizya; they have little now, too, according to the news reports coming out of the islamic world.

Let’s get this straight: I am not defending the actions of any Muslim governments after the Khalifa e Rashideen and I am not bound by the actions of anyone except the Holy Prophet.

Debatable. Why, then, did science and knowledge in the islamic world fall so quickly behind that of the European world?

Unfortunately, the Muslims, when the empire was falling apart, lost their religion and their knowledge.

 

[Arsalan]

Moderator Edit This post deleted because it is plagiarized without offering citation to the original text. The author of the post is spamming this forum with propaganda and preaching his agenda. It will not be tolerated. The original text of the propaganda he posted here as if he were the author (or, if he is indeed the original author, he failed to let it be known) can be found here: [PDF] http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Manji-AnotherPawnAdvanced.pdf [/PDF]

 

[Arsalan]

Lol. Where i did quote from other texts it was made clear (ie. question of suffering and Babi and bahai religion). Also, what i took from the Manji book was a small part about dhimmies, not the whole book as is made out to be. I dont have an agenda, I'm only countering the arguments presented here, which i doubt people came to by themselves either. If someone asks me a question about certain verses and hadith and dhimmies, then I will answer those questions. If they are too long for you go ahead and mark them as preaching and delete them.

 

[GeoffP]

Can you paste those verses here? I think it might be a different verse in my Quran.

The ones in Sura 4 regarding dimished inheritance and legal value for women.

After the death of the Holy Prophet, some tribes left Islam and began hostilities against the Muslims already there.

This seems a bit specious. On whose word is this? Again: to be putting down revolt in Iran, there first had to be conquest. It is categorically impossible to have it only the one way.

The conquests that took place were to prevent the enemies of Islam from surrounding the countries and therefore being able to attack them from all sides.

The invasions were direct, linear conquests into North Africa and the Balkans. If anything, it was islam that was attacking from both sides. This point is rejected.

Not only that but to spread freedom of religion and conscience which was for a large part not that common then.

It was even less common in those countries once islam had conquered them, precisely as it is today.

The fact of the matter is that every major empire spreads and when the Islamic empire expanded, the people in those countries gained freedom of religion and conscience and more.

That is absurd in the extreme. The penalty for leaving islam is death. This is not likely to promote freedom of conscience.

After those countries were under Muslim rule they made significant progress and didn’t live in fear of their rulers.

Well, apparently not. They have made few advances, little improvement comparatively. In short: they have stagnated. "Didn't live in fear of their rulers"? Don't be absurd: they feared their islamic overlords as much or more than their old rulers.

Nowhere in Surah 9 does it say to oppress or kill innocent people.

Q 9: 29 "make them feel oppressed"

The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 and therefore has nothing to do with the Khalifa e Rashideen. In fact, in the time of the expansion of the Islamic empire, the Copts sided by the Muslims because they found them better and compassionate rulers.

Evidence? They seem to have changed their minds.

Why should I read their tafseer? I don’t even know who they are. If I want to read a tafsir I’ll read the tafseers of the great Imams and Mujaddids.

I think you'll find they cite the same sources you do. The MSA from USC are a good place to start.

Let’s get this straight: I am not defending the actions of any Muslim governments after the Khalifa e Rashideen and I am not bound by the actions of anyone except the Holy Prophet.

But it's Rashideen - the hated Uthman - that we're discussing here, and his immoral conquest of other cultures. Central to your preferences, I'm focusing on him particularly.

Unfortunately, the Muslims, when the empire was falling apart, lost their religion and their knowledge.

Well, this may be: but Europe in the Renaissance was composed of no one empire, no overriding political entity. I don't think your comparison stands.

 

[GeoffP]

Whoops: here's a link to the tafsir for Sura 9. Sam suggested it to me, but I lost the link.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html

 

[Michael]

Arsalan,

What year and on what day was the Qur'an finished? I still do not see the year or day listed. You can not write NO and then avoid the question!

Secondly, I asked WHO wrote which parts of the Qur'an? You listed the WHO but not which parts were written by who.

Lastly, is this list of people the ONLY people or is it the "principal" people? Well, is it everyone involved in writing the Qur'an or only some of the people? Well? All or Some?

Michael


Basically it seems to me that you do not have the information even on the year it was completed. How about we just start with that - what year was the Qur'an completed?

 

[Michael]

The core teachings of the Prophets are the same: Unity of God, worship etc. The Quran is perfect because it contains no contradictions and, as opposed to earlier sharias, is not addressed to just 1 nation or people, but to the whole of the world. It brings a perfect system based on justice and equality and freedom.

Maybe we have a different oppion of what is perfect.

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where all people are taxed equally or
b) a society were some people are taxed based on their belief.
Which is more perfect a or b?

Which is more perfect?
a) A society where Slavery is an acceptable institutional or
b) a society were Slavery is illegal.
Which is more perfect a or b?


Which is more perfect?
a) A society where polygamy is an acceptable practice or
b) a society were polygamy is unacceptable.
Which is more perfect a or b?


Which is more perfect?
a) A society where women are legally equal to men or
b) a society were women are not legally equal to men.
Which is more perfect a or b?


Which is more perfect?
a) A polygamist society where men can legally take more than one wife or
b) a polygamist society were men and women can legally take more than one partner
Which is more perfect a or b?


Michael

 

[Michael]

Secondly, why did those people then convert to Islam instead of oppose it and denounce it as plagiarism?

:bugeye: Gee Arsalan why did the Muslims who decided to remain in Spain after the Catholics kings re-conquered the land decide to become Christian? Must have like the taste of pork I suppose.

Gee I wonder why so many African Slaves in Amercia became Xian?

Gee I wonder why so many Native South Americans are Catholic...

Maybe conquering them and suppressing their native religious beliefs had something to do with it?

 

[Michael]

First of all, prove it.

Prove what? Prove that the Qur'an has Jewish, Christian, and Zoroastrian and Arab stories in it or prove that Mohammad (or whom ever wrote the Qur'an and whatever year it was finished - still didn't get that answer) plagiarized those stories?

Like I said, it's perfectly obvious to anyone who is not brainwashed to believe it. I'm sure had you been born in China 50 years ago you'd be telling me how perfect Mao Communism is and saying a Prayer under a picture of General Mao prior dinner a blessing. If, today, we looked around at how crap the whole Chinese Communist thing worked out you'd tell me that it was the fault of *insert excuse*- the system is "perfect". Just as you "think" the Bible was corrupted and "think" the Qur'an is "perfect" (whatever in hell that means) and the reason why no "Islamic" nation ever became this wondrous paradise and paragon of society in the last 1400 years is because *insert excuse*


So you ask me to prove to you that the Qur'an is not plagiarized. It's plagiarized because the stories are the same stories - copying is called plagiarizism!


Do you know any Baha'i? There are a lot around where I live and I am friends with some of them. They're really nice people. They do not use the Qur'an, they have their own religious book and they believe that the Qur'an was corrupted. I know this because I asked them and they said as much right in front of two Muslims I know. These guys then said something in Arabic to which she responded in Arabic and their jaws dropped wide open. She stated that she did not believe that Mohammad was the "last" Prophet (but was a prophet) and that Bahá'u'lláh was the last one so far. To her it was evident that the Qur'an is corrupted by how badly "Islamic" societies think. You may write that the Qur'an is the pinnacle of perfection but it seems many people will disagree with you.


All divine Revelations come from the same Source; thus, the religions identified with them are in essence one. They differ in the measure of their teachings and particularly in their social laws and principles, appropriate to the times in which they appeared. The successive divine Revelations over the centuries have provided the spiritual force and laws for the advancement of civilization. Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad were all divine Messengers; the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh are the most recent. The coming of Bahá’u’lláh represents the fulfillment of this centuries’ long process of progressive revelation and of the expectations inspired by previous divine Messengers for the ultimate unity of peoples and peace among nations.


Now Arsalan, I have a very specific question: Given that the Baha'i think Bahá'u'lláh as a "divine messenger" (equal to Mohammad) in his writings (some of which can be found in here: Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh), there are stories that are similar to those found in the Qur'an, the Bible and in the Torah - SO? My question is, did these "revelations" come to Bahá'u'lláh from God because he is a "divine messenger" equal to Mohammad or did he copy them?

Which is it:
a) divine revelation or
b) plagiarisms

Can you "prove" your answer?

Get it now?
Michael

 

[Michael]

Islam and the Quran brought many teachings which were in themselves revolutionary and perfect.

Just briefly describe 3 of the "many" revolutionary and perfect teachings.

Here I'll give you an example of what I am asking you for.
Christianity brought the teaching of forgiveness. This is summed up in the "turn the other cheek" when you are slapped and to forgive you neighbor and that no one is perfect.


So Arsalan three brief examples of revolutionary and perfect teachings please,
Thanks,
Michael

 

[Michael]

Islam is also the only religion capable of uniting all the religions of the world because of its universal teaching.

Tell me Arsalan, how does Islam "unite" polytheisms such as Japanese Shintoism without denigrating the Japanese religion?

Please explain.
Thanks,
Michael

 

[Michael]

The conquests that took place were to prevent the enemies of Islam from surrounding the countries and therefore being able to attack them from all sides. Not only that but to spread freedom of religion and conscience which was for a large part not that common then. The fact of the matter is that every major empire spreads and when the Islamic empire expanded, the people in those countries gained freedom of religion and conscience and more. After those countries were under Muslim rule they made significant progress and didn’t live in fear of their rulers.

Now lets hear about why Amercia needs to invade Iraq and protect us from those big bad Terrorists:
Presidential speach - 2003 - pre-invasion of Iraq

This is a massive and difficult undertaking -- it is worth our effort, it is worth our sacrifice, because we know the stakes. The failure of Iraqi democracy would embolden terrorists around the world, increase dangers to the American people, and extinguish the hopes of millions in the region. Iraqi democracy will succeed -- and that success will send forth the news, from Damascus to Teheran -- that freedom can be the future of every nation. (Applause.) The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed event in the global democratic revolution. (Applause.)

Real reason for the Islamic War of Aggression in the words of the man who led the Islamic Armies himself:
Khalid ibn al-Walid
Do you not see the wealth of the land of the Persians? Do you not remember the poverty of the land of the Arabs? Do you not see how the crops in this land cover the earth? If the holy war were not enjoined by Allah, we should still come and conquer this rich land and exchange the hunger of our deserts for the abundant eating which is now ours

Real reason for the American War of Aggression in Iraq: Oil Hits Record High


Funny thing about bullshit is you can claim it smells like roses but it always smells like bullshit...