In 846 Muslim Arabs arrived in a fleet at the mouth of the Tiber, made their way to Rome, sacked the city, and carried away from the basilica of St. Peter all of the gold and silver it contained.
Islam In Europe
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I travel a lot. The 5 years I spent in Saudi Arabia is the longest I've lived in one place (except home). I've seen a lot of the United States, I was there for three years.
Not to mention the entirely of Assyrian Christendom. And the Barbary pirates episode thereafter.
Look, it's all very well to be one thing or another, but pretending that islam is humanitarian in political practice or that islam was on the defensive all that time is just absurd.
Like the Barbary pirates, no doubt. And not at all sponsored by any islamic political power like, say, the Ottoman Empire or something.
What's your point?
The Crusades were a grab for land as this was the only way a serf could become a Land Lord.
Anyway, what is you view on the topic? Do you think that Islamic people living in Europe should be allowed some special consideration due to the religous beleif or do you think that should be treated as any other religion and not given any special considerations? Do you think that the fundamental Islamic organizations in Europe that teach ideology such as: There should be a tax placed on non-Muslims living within Muslim States, that these Fundamental Islamic organization should be labeled Cults and are not religions and be banned within Europe?
What are your ideas on the matter SAM?
Michael
If I'm not mistaken the Barbary pirates did not come out of the blue. They were followed by several traditions of piracy in the area.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates
And the Ottomans supported them like the US supports Israel, because they were their personal thugs against the Crusaders.
You're ascribing religious motivation to something that existed before Islam in the region and was continued due to the Romans penchant for attaching every land that came their way and later as a response to the Crusades or the competition over the countries. If you recall, the Turks were always ambitious, they displaced the Mongols after all. But of course, to you, its all religion.
But thats not surprising. As for the rest, just insert whatever you want to hear. I'm not going to bother.
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To their benefit Europeans fought long and hard to get rid of fundamental monotheistic religious dogma from ruining their lives.
There are many teachings accepted within mainstream Islam that Europeans consider as fundamental, intolerant stone-age caveman like mentality.
For example:
1) Teaching that it's sanctimonious to tax non-Muslims living in an "Islamic" State.
2) Teaching that polygamy is acceptable.
3) Teaching that all other beleif systems are inherently wrong.
4) Teaching that owning Slaves, if properly Institutionalized, is acceptable.
In European's minds these Islamic teachings are easily recognized as backwards mentality defective and are better suited to rule and ruin the livesof the masses of Sheeple living in the Middle East. Similar to you SAM Europeans have found nothing novel nor anything of particular insight residing in the pages of the "Holy" Qur'an.
They simply don't want a bar of it.
Michael
There are many teachings accepted within mainstream Islam that Europeans consider as fundamental, intolerant stone-age caveman like mentality.
For example:
1) Teaching that it's sanctimonious to tax non-Muslims living in an "Islamic" State.
2) Teaching that polygamy is acceptable.
3) Teaching that all other beleif systems are inherently wrong.
4) Teaching that owning Slaves, if properly Institutionalized, is acceptable.
In European's minds these Islamic teachings are easily recognized as backwards mentality defective and are better suited to rule and ruin the livesof the masses of Sheeple living in the Middle East. Similar to you SAM Europeans have found nothing novel nor anything of particular insight residing in the pages of the "Holy" Qur'an.
They simply don't want a bar of it.
Michael
Oh and again >90% of "moderate" Indonesians take an intolerant view of apostate and want to legislate legal means to see that Muslims are legally barred from converting out of Islam into another beleif system.
I wonder where in the hell they got that idea from? I mean greater than 90 f*cking percent of moderate Indonesians think it's wrong for a person to choose their own beleif???
It's a mental illness.
I wonder where in the hell they got that idea from? I mean greater than 90 f*cking percent of moderate Indonesians think it's wrong for a person to choose their own beleif???
It's a mental illness.
see so much better to air your own opinions. no pretence of even listening to others.
btw, isn't it straange that as a person who is tolerant of other persons beliefs you have so much to say about mine?
although, since you failed to understand what I said, I doubt you will see that the position you ascribe to me, is one that you fill quite nicely all by yourself.
although I will say, it is what I have come to expect of Islamophobes.
so nice to have my beliefs decided for me, tolerance (for all views EXACTLY like your own) kicks ass!
btw, isn't it straange that as a person who is tolerant of other persons beliefs you have so much to say about mine?
although, since you failed to understand what I said, I doubt you will see that the position you ascribe to me, is one that you fill quite nicely all by yourself.
although I will say, it is what I have come to expect of Islamophobes.
so nice to have my beliefs decided for me, tolerance (for all views EXACTLY like your own) kicks ass!
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Does the possibility exist that there is no God?
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
While I am able to clearly see the injustice and indignity that the invasions of the Americas caused to the indigenous people who lived there I can also just as easily see the injustice and indignity that the invasions of Persia caused, it seems some people can only see one or the other.
Odd that. Oh wait, I forgot, not a single Persian was harmed, they all just jumped for joy at the opportunity to venerate a Arab Prophet of a foreign God of one of their client States all while peacefully giving up power and control over their cities and their people. And look how good it did them - why even today anyone can see the Islamic Republic of Iran is a beacon of light on the hill.
I'm an Islamophobe?
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
Gee it looks like Jefferson was an Isalmophobe as well? Who'd have thunk it?
It's too bad you could comment on the following Fundamental beliefs whether they're acceptable or unacceptable but we both know how that song is sung. Better a full glass of ad hominem served with fresh herring pie.
1) Teaching that it's sanctimonious to tax non-Muslims living in an "Islamic" State.
2) Teaching that polygamy is acceptable.
3) Teaching that all other beleif systems are inherently wrong.
4) Teaching that owning Slaves, if properly Institutionalized, is acceptable.
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
While I am able to clearly see the injustice and indignity that the invasions of the Americas caused to the indigenous people who lived there I can also just as easily see the injustice and indignity that the invasions of Persia caused, it seems some people can only see one or the other.
Odd that. Oh wait, I forgot, not a single Persian was harmed, they all just jumped for joy at the opportunity to venerate a Arab Prophet of a foreign God of one of their client States all while peacefully giving up power and control over their cities and their people. And look how good it did them - why even today anyone can see the Islamic Republic of Iran is a beacon of light on the hill.
I'm an Islamophobe?
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
Gee it looks like Jefferson was an Isalmophobe as well? Who'd have thunk it?
It's too bad you could comment on the following Fundamental beliefs whether they're acceptable or unacceptable but we both know how that song is sung. Better a full glass of ad hominem served with fresh herring pie.
1) Teaching that it's sanctimonious to tax non-Muslims living in an "Islamic" State.
2) Teaching that polygamy is acceptable.
3) Teaching that all other beleif systems are inherently wrong.
4) Teaching that owning Slaves, if properly Institutionalized, is acceptable.
I absolutely loathe people who are intolerant, I'm very tolerant of all tolerant people. Of course they must be tolerant of all the things I am tolerant of and intolerant of all the things I am intolerant of.
This is my definition of giving equal credence to all beliefs; now there are these intolerant people out there who only give credence to their own beliefs while merely tolerating others. Disgusting!
/assumes lotus position to relieve stress of disgust/
Thomas Jefferson? Isn't he the guy who screwed his slaves and left little black Jeffies around for posterity?
A fine upstanding man/
Such a noble vision.
This is my definition of giving equal credence to all beliefs; now there are these intolerant people out there who only give credence to their own beliefs while merely tolerating others. Disgusting!
/assumes lotus position to relieve stress of disgust/
Thomas Jefferson? Isn't he the guy who screwed his slaves and left little black Jeffies around for posterity?
A fine upstanding man/
Such a noble vision.
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damn right!
muslims should obey the laws of Europe,and learn to act in more civilized way
instead of their medieval like tyrany.
Europe didnt get where they are today thru torture and abuse of humans rights but thru respect and equality of all,including women.
.
no to mention the crusades, 300 years of feudalism and ethnic cleansing, 200 years of colonialism, 2 world wars and a holocaust
Ahh yes, 90% anti-apostasy Indonesia!
Winners and losers in Islamic Indonesia.
One is a Muslim cleric who taught the Bali bombers to slaughter 202 innocents.
(Abu note: That's Abu Bakr Bashir, head of al-Qaeda sub-Group Jemaah Islamiyah)
He's released from jail after Only a 26-month sentence.
The same court gave the Christian Sunday school teacher on the right 3 Years for teaching others to turn the other cheek.
I always get a Kick out of the Most 'moderate' Islamic countries.
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Winners and losers in Islamic Indonesia.
One is a Muslim cleric who taught the Bali bombers to slaughter 202 innocents.
(Abu note: That's Abu Bakr Bashir, head of al-Qaeda sub-Group Jemaah Islamiyah)
He's released from jail after Only a 26-month sentence.
The same court gave the Christian Sunday school teacher on the right 3 Years for teaching others to turn the other cheek.
I always get a Kick out of the Most 'moderate' Islamic countries.
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Excepting the tiny compromising detail of:
Did the earlier tradition include islam? Oone can hardly complain about the European response - they were merely following an even earlier tradition they learned from 870 AD onward.
And their women and children, yes. Ah, the Golden Age. Well...more of an off-yellow for some people, apparently. At least you attribute precedence to the Ottomans, though.
abu_afak: Excellent comparison. The tolerance of political islam in all it's logic and understanding. Well...for some people, anyway. One out of two isn't bad, you know. Brothers all.
Shit I didn't know it was really illegal?!?!? And this is a "moderate" Islamic State???
The three Indonesian woman that are serving a three-year prison sentence after their conviction of “attempting to coerce children to change their religion” under the Indonesian “Child Protection Act” after running a Christian Sunday school, .....
Of the conviction, Rebekka said, “My first reaction, I cry.” Rebekka is a medical doctor who had treated 30 to 40 Muslim and Christian patients everyday in her clinic based in Indramayu. Now she is confined in a dirty prison with a total of 437 inmates. Sixteen inmates are women. Eight women stay in a 5m by 5m cell and sleep together on a hard wooden platform with no blankets or sheets allowed. “We have to pay money to the guards to turn the water on to the toilet in our cell,” said Rebekka. “I wake up at 5:00am everyday to pray and read my Bible till 7:30am. At 8:00am they open the [cell] doors,” she continued. The 16 women are taken to a 10m by 10m room until 4 pm. There is only one chair. Three times a day, they are fed an ‘egg-sized’ lump of rice and soybean mixture covered in ants, assist news has reported.
Truly a civilized people if ever there were one...