Islam and human rights

[Roman]

Some curiousnesses I have, that perhaps sam can answer (though I doubt I'll get anything but snide ad homs from her):

1. Islam treats women really poorly. At least, Islamic law does. Could someone point me to the verses that are interpreted to mean that women are subhuman beasts that should only be kept around for breeding purposes and brutally stoned when they misbehave? Discussion of how Arabs are a savage race of subhuman beasts that should only be kept around for breeding purposes and brutally stoned when they misbehave would also be acceptable. Err, I mean, discussion of the influence of Middle Eastern culture on Islam would be acceptable, as opposed to how illiterate these barbarians are that they cant even read their own goddamn holy book.

2. Why is Islam so violent? Rather, why are Muslims so violently violent towards everything, and where are the verses that support their violence? Or, if you're Samiam, which ones are being misinterpreted?

3. Why is Islam so intolerant? What's with the jihads, programs, and campaigns of terror in the name of God? Any scripture to back up their intolerance?

 

[S.A.M.]

Well, it looks like you know everything already. Not much anyone can tell you, let alone a subhuman beast.

 

[Roman]

Well, it looks like you know everything already. Not much anyone can tell you, let alone a subhuman beast.

You are so predictable. You don't really know the answer, do you? I mean, other than "it's the West's/USA's fault".

 

[Kadark]

"The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan gave us the Taliban. The American occupation of Saudi Arabia gave us bin Laden and Al Qaeda. The Israeli occupation of Lebanon gave us Hezbollah. Let us see what the American occupation of Iraq is going to give us."

As'ad AbuKhalil

 

[Roman]

"The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan gave us the Taliban. The American occupation of Saudi Arabia gave us bin Laden and Al Qaeda. The Israeli occupation of Lebanon gave us Hezbollah. Let us see what the American occupation of Iraq is going to give us."

As'ad AbuKhalil

So you don't know either.
Interesting.

 

[Enmos]

"The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan gave us the Taliban. The American occupation of Saudi Arabia gave us bin Laden and Al Qaeda. The Israeli occupation of Lebanon gave us Hezbollah. Let us see what the American occupation of Iraq is going to give us."

As'ad AbuKhalil

Yeah, and girls gave us rapists

 

[Norsefire]

This thread is utter bullshit

Coming from a Christian, the most violent type of ape on the planet, your word Roman does not mean bullshit to me.

When you stop slaughtering children, opressing women, causing terrorist attacks and all of the shit that you do, you can start talking.

 

[SkinWalker]

While you may be offended at the assertion that Islam generally violates human rights on a regular basis, you may not respond in the manner that Norsefire did above.

If you find it offensive that someone would be willing to criticize or question your religious beliefs, let me say that this might not be the forum for you. However, if you find it offensive but are able to actually respond in a civil manner (i.e. as S.A.M. and Lightgigantic do), then you are most welcome.

With regard to the topic, it cannot be denied that there is at least a perception in the West that Islam promotes violence, misogyny, and intolerance to the extreme. Whether this perception accurate or not is worth discussing, and, if I were sure that my religion were anything but violent or a general violation of basic human rights, I should think I'd be willing to engage in civil discourse demonstrating why this is so. Replying with "this thread is utter "BS" and merely insulting and trolling the OP doesn't accomplish anything in your favor.

S.A.M. has posted on more than one occasion links to several Islamic scholars worth reading (I forget the links, but they are on another page in this very board), which make the argument that Islam is genuinely a peaceful religion and not one that tolerates violence.

Unfortunately, actions seem to speak louder than words and even mere cartoons seem to incite violent responses from Muslims the world over who didn't even have the opportunity to see the cartoons!. Indeed, death threats are commonly issued by Muslims to those that are critical of Islam and there are countless examples of misogyny throughout the Muslim world as well as violence against apostates.

Such a cult that doesn't allow its members to leave the fold or question its doctrine doesn't seem to hold up to that which can be considered humane. Violence and inequality for women that at least appears to exist in the Muslim world -a world that now extends to many urban areas of Europe- goes against the notions of that which can be considered humane.

The easy response for our Muslim brothers and sisters posting at this board is to redirect the discussion to the problems of religions like Christianity and Judaism, however, that would be a different topic and would deserve threads of their own. In this thread, lets discuss the apparent violence and potential human rights violations of Islam; whether these observations are grounded in fact; and why they are perceived that way if not. For those that insist that this perception is a valid one, let them post their supporting evidence and argue their point as well.

Lets argue. But lets argue with a civil tongue and avoid personal insults. Lets not pit one religious cult against another or preach about how your cult is the "best" one; the "right" one; etc. Such comments will be deleted. Insults will be deleted. Off-topic posts will be deleted.

Enjoy.

 

[Roman]

Thanks for your articulateness, Skin.

Being from a Judeo-Christian culture, I am somewhat familiar with where certain religiously sanctioned bigotness comes from in the Bible. For instance, black people are black because God cursed them (that's also why their IQs are inferior to white people). That's in Genesis. I think. Blacks are the descendants of Ham. Or gay people are bad because of what happened to Sodom&Gomorrah in Leviticus.

Now Sam, are you telling me that your knowledge of a religion you practice is less than my knowledge of a religion I don't?

 

[(Q)]

1. Islam treats women really poorly. At least, Islamic law does. Could someone point me to the verses that are interpreted to mean that women are subhuman beasts that should only be kept around for breeding purposes and brutally stoned when they misbehave? Discussion of how Arabs are a savage race of subhuman beasts that should only be kept around for breeding purposes and brutally stoned when they misbehave would also be acceptable. Err, I mean, discussion of the influence of Middle Eastern culture on Islam would be acceptable, as opposed to how illiterate these barbarians are that they cant even read their own goddamn holy book.

"It was highly unusual for a man of pre-Islamic Arab society to have more than one wife in his house; and it is quite certain that polygamy was introduced and encouraged by the prophet after the revelation of Islam. Women were to produce as many Muslims as possible. This ultimately resulted in the degradation in the status of the married woman in the Islamic society.

Islam added measures for "the preservation of modesty for women" -like casting down their eyes in public, concealing their breasts and jewellery and the likes. However, these restrictions were later extended by the followers of the prophet far beyond his original intentions as expressed in Koran, and remained more or less a permanent fixture of Muslim life thereafter.

Moreover, as female sex-slaves, women were freely bought and sold in open markets of all Islamic countries, and loaned, rented or bestowed as gifts to friends. The prophet himself bestowed women sex-slaves to his favourites. There was no limit to the number of slaves one could own; one of the companions of prophet Hazrat Zubair Ibn ul Arvan, for example, had 1000 men-slaves and 1000 women sex-slaves. Islam took the woman as the land tilled by the man where he spilled his seeds.

Islam is an organized crime against humanity!"

http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/20041120_en.html

2. Why is Islam so violent? Rather, why are Muslims so violently violent towards everything, and where are the verses that support their violence? Or, if you're Samiam, which ones are being misinterpreted?

"Rationalist International expresses shock and deep concern about the attack on Bangladeshi author Taslima Nasreen today (August 9) by the radical political outfit Majlis Ittehad-ul-Muslimeen (MIM) at the Hyderabad Press Club. She was releasing the Telegu translation of her book "Shodd". Taslima Nasreen is an Honorary Associate of Rationalist International.

MIM activists, led by three state Legislative Council members (MLAs), raised slogans against Taslima and flung bouquets and chairs at her and others attending the function. However, no injuries have been reported so far.

MIM leader Akhtar Khan, an MLA, said: "She is enemy of Islam, she is a black spot on Muslims.. We cannot bear anyone talking against Islam. She has written books against Islam. We will not tolerate her in Hyderabad."

"Zilla Huma Usman, 35, Pakistani minister and fighter for women’s rights, has been shot dead by an Islamic fundamentalist. Ms. Usman was about to address a meeting of party activists in Gujranwala, 120 miles south east of Islamabad, where her office is based. When she stepped out of her car, the attacker fired a single shot from his pistol at close range at her and hit her in the head. She was airlifted to a hospital in Lahore, but died soon afterwards."

http://www.rationalistinternational.net/

3. Why is Islam so intolerant? What's with the jihads, programs, and campaigns of terror in the name of God? Any scripture to back up their intolerance?

Abdel Karim Suleiman, a 23-year-old former law student, has been sentenced to 4 years imprisonment by a court in Alexandria for insulting both Islam and the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak in articles that he published in his Internet blog. The trial took merely five minutes. The judge sentenced him to three years for insulting Islam and to one year for insulting the president, whom he called a dictator. Suleiman is the first person in Egypt, who has been convicted for nothing else but peacefully expressing his opinion in the Internet.

http://www.rationalistinternational.net/

 

[S.A.M.]

blah blah number one

Source of history for preislamic Arabia?

blah blah number two

Taslima Nasreen arrested by cops for disturbing the peace

edit: also the guys who "made a bid to attack her" were political activists belonging to a fringe political party. 3 of them were also arrested
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/09nasreen.htm

blah blah number three

Poor translation of the court verdict, which translates as actions against country and religion. Egypt has a 'secular' government and routinely arrests those who say anything against the government. In this case, it was against the President, he was given two years for inciting sedition and blogging negative comments about the university where he was thrown out of (the university pressed charges against him) and one year for calling the president a terrorist or dictator, I forget which.

 

[(Q)]

Wow, talk about fake news.

Every bit of Islamic news is fake to you, sam, based on your personal bias as a Muslim.

Are your fingers in your ears, sam, while you go la, la, la?

Sorry, I see you changed it to blah, blah blah.

Wait, let me try and find an article demonstrating the splitting of the moon.

 

[S.A.M.]

Thats a laugh, considering YOUR news source.

Perhaps they ought to call it rationalisationinternational.wtf?

 

[(Q)]

Taslima Nasreen arrested by cops for disturbing the peace

So, you resort to lies?

edit: also the guys who "made a bid to attack her" were political activists belonging to a fringe political party. 3 of them were also arrested
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/09nasreen.htm

Fully backing my linked article. Thanks.

Poor translation of the court verdict, which translates as actions against country and religion. Egypt has a 'secular' government and routinely arrests those who say anything against the government. In this case, it was against the President, he was given two years for inciting sedition and blogging negative comments about the university where he was thrown out of (the university pressed charges against him) and one year for calling the president a terrorist or dictator, I forget which.

And, your point to this nonsense? Oh, yes, you forgot.

 

[S.A.M.]

So, you resort to lies?
Fully backing my linked article. Thanks.

Its a free country, anyone is allowed to stage a protest. But MLAs staging a protest?


And sorry yes, I was mistaken, they filed a case against her

After the unsavoury incident, the police escorted Taslima Nasreen to the Hyderabad airport from where she took the flight to Kolkata.

The police had booked a case against MIM MLAs and other activists under sections 147 and 18 (rioting with deadly weapons), 323 (voluntarily causing hurt), 427 (mischief causing damage to property), 452 (trespass after preparation for hurt, assault and wrongful restraint), and 506 (criminal intimidation) of Indian Penal Code read with section 149 of Criminal Procedure Code. Sections 147, 148 and 506 of IPC are non-bailable offences.

On the same day, MIM floor leader Akbaruddin Owaisi had filed a complaint against Taslima Nasreen, alleging that she had hurt the sentiments of Muslim community with her writings and speeches against Islam, including Holy Prophet Mohammed.

Based on his complaint, the City Police booked a case against Taslima Nasreen under section 153 (A) of IPC for "promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language etc and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony." The case is under investigation.

The City Police have also moved a city court for permission to file a criminal case against Akbaruddin Owaisi under section 506 (criminal intimidation) for making provocative statements to the media threatening Taslima Nasreen with "dire consequences" if she dared to visit Hyderabad again. The case is likely to be registered formally on Monday.

Akbaruddin Owaisi, who is in the eye of a storm after the TV news channels claimed that he held out threats to kill or behead Taslima Nasreen if she came to Hyderabad again, told rediff.com, "I never said that we will kill her or behead her. This is all distortion. What I said is that there is a 'fatwa' against her. It is the responsibility of Muslims to abide by the fatwa and being a Muslim I will also abide by the fatwa."

http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/11taslima.htm

And, your point to this nonsense? Oh, yes, you forgot.

Yeah, apparently in some countries if a university (an Islamic university of course) and the President of the country press charges against you, you get sentenced.

 

[(Q)]

Its a free country, anyone is allowed to stage a protest. But MLAs staging a protest?

Perhaps you can answer that one. Why would Muslim MLA's fling chairs and toss insults? Is that how Muslims stage protests?

Yeah, apparently in some countries if a university (an Islamic university of course) and the President of the country press charges against you, you get sentenced.

Uh-huh. :shrug:

 

[S.A.M.]

Perhaps you can answer that one. Why would Muslim MLA's fling chairs and toss insults? Is that how Muslims stage protests?

No that's how Indian politicians garner attention.

Which usually meets this response in India

Uh-huh. :shrug:

Such is the appalling condition of politicians in our country. Most of the politicians do not even know to write and converse in english whereas some of them do not know what they are meant to do for the responsibility that they are given. All that they know is that they have to go to the parliament and oppose the ruling party and if and when a fight breaks out behave like some thugs by using foul words and throwing the things present around them.Sometimes when these fights are shown on the television I feel that the scene is better than the wrestling program that comes one of the channels.

http://apageinhistory.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/it-only-happens-in-india/

 

[(Q)]

"AS SHE LAY dying in a Mogadishu hospital, Sister Leonella forgave her killers. She had lived in Africa for almost four decades and could speak fluent Somali, but her last words were murmured in Italian, her mother tongue. ``Perdono, perdono," she whispered. I forgive, I forgive.

We urge you, Muslims, wherever you are to hunt down the pope for his barbaric statements," Sheik Abubukar Hassan Malin had exhorted worshippers during evening prayers at a Mogadishu mosque. "Whoever offends our prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim." Sister Leonella was not the pope, but she was presumably close enough for purposes of the local jihadists."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/20/muslim_violence/

"Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/i...tml?ei=5090&en=d13886daba5e586f&ex=1299733200

"But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom.

It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890

 

[S.A.M.]

"AS SHE LAY dying in a Mogadishu hospital, Sister Leonella forgave her killers. She had lived in Africa for almost four decades and could speak fluent Somali, but her last words were murmured in Italian, her mother tongue. ``Perdono, perdono," she whispered. I forgive, I forgive.

We urge you, Muslims, wherever you are to hunt down the pope for his barbaric statements," Sheik Abubukar Hassan Malin had exhorted worshippers during evening prayers at a Mogadishu mosque. "Whoever offends our prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim." Sister Leonella was not the pope, but she was presumably close enough for purposes of the local jihadists."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/20/muslim_violence/

"Dr. Sultan, who is 47, wears a prim sweater and skirt, with fleece-lined slippers and heavy stockings. Her eyes and hair are jet black and her modest manner belies her intense words: "Knowledge has released me from this backward thinking. Somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/i...tml?ei=5090&en=d13886daba5e586f&ex=1299733200

"But indeed, there is much that is clearly wrong with the Islamic world. Women are stoned to death and undergo clitorectomies. Gays hang from the gallows under the approving eyes of the proponents of Shariah, the legal code of Islam. Sunni and Shia massacre each other daily in Iraq. Palestinian mothers teach 3-year-old boys and girls the ideal of martyrdom.

It is vital to grasp that traditional and even mainstream Islamic teaching accepts and promotes violence. Shariah, for example, allows apostates to be killed, permits beating women to discipline them, seeks to subjugate non-Muslims to Islam as dhimmis and justifies declaring war to do so. It exhorts good Muslims to exterminate the Jews before the "end of days." The near deafening silence of the Muslim majority against these barbaric practices is evidence enough that there is something fundamentally wrong.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009890

Very sad, but its an opinion, not fact. There are more marxists who blow themselves up than Muslims. There are Buddhist extremists who destroy churches and tear down mosques.

Argument from ignorance (whether your own or someone else's ) is an indequate form of debate.

 

[SnakeLord]

That builds respect, admiration and ultimately love, not ownership.

Take into account that christianity has also suppressed women for generations:

1 Corinthians 14:35
If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Timothy 1:11
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

You're all as bad as each other.