Islam and Cardiovascular Science

[S.A.M.]

Afghans are not a nation state. They extend from India to Iran. My grandmother was a Pashtun.

But I think every time belongs to its people. People have to move forward, if the Taliban felt, after deciding that the statues should be protected, that they were against Islam, it speaks more to their insecurity than to the statues themselves. People will do what they need to do to feel secure, as you have already seen elsewhere. Its the same principle behind building public parks over Palestinian graves and uprooting thousand year old olive groves.

If there were Buddhists in Pakistan, they would have priority over the Muslims. As it is, there aren't, so asking them to consider people outside their state while they are being killed in theirs [remember the Taliban was voted in by people who wanted a return to the safety of an Islamic society] is ignoring that abandonment of prejudice and increased self awareness only come to people when their physiological and security needs are taken care of.

 

[Tyler]

I don't disagree with anything you said. But the only thing you've offered up as justification for the damage is that it is the Afghan's heritage and thus their decision. I still haven't seen how or why you think the Afghanis have more claim than the Buddhists, or why the Buddhists don't at least have a respectable amount of heritage in those statues.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't disagree with anything you said. But the only thing you've offered up as justification for the damage is that it is the Afghan's heritage and thus their decision. I still haven't seen how or why you think the Afghanis have more claim than the Buddhists, or why the Buddhists don't at least have a respectable amount of heritage in those statues.

Perhaps you need some background, it was question of priorities

The destruction of these heritage sites has raised a number of questions, not least why it is that Mohammad Omar reversed his previous edict (that all such monuments were to be preserved) at this time. In fact when the Taliban captured Bamiyan three years ago, and a local commander fired a rocket at the biggest statue, he was severely reprimanded. Subsequently, a year or so later, Mullah Omar decreed specifically that the Buddhas were to be protected.

The international community has unanimously expressed dismay and outrage at the Taliban's destruction of this part of Afghanistan's cultural heritage. Some commentators have suggested that the most useful way of looking at this issue, and in particular this seemingly inexplicable change of heart on the part of Mullah Mohammad Omar, is to focus on a number of factors -- political, social and economic -- which may have contributed to this decision.

First among these factors is the new range of UN sanctions imposed in December 2000, sanctions which were criticized and opposed by Secretary-General Kofi Annan, but which were nevertheless passed by the Security Council on the initiative of the United States and Russia. The Pakistani Foreign Minister commented that were these sanctions to be imposed, the world would witness “one of the greatest human tragedies of our times.”

The second, and related, factor is the humanitarian crisis looming in Afghanistan, the scale of which is truly formidable. According to the UN Undersecretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief, Kenzo Oshima, at least 1 million Afghans are at risk of famine. The worst drought in memory combined with the devastating effects of over 20 years of war, have forced over 700,000 Afghans in the past year alone to abandon their homes; the Afghans, according to the UNHCR, constitute the largest single refugee group in the world.

Third, according to a Taliban envoy recently in the United States, the destruction of the statues was primarily the result of an offer made by a visiting delegation of mostly European envoys and a representative of UNESCO of substantial sums of money to protect the Buddhas at a time when little attention (much less financial aid) was being given to the humanitarian crisis there. As Sayed Rahmatullah Hashimi said: “If they can destroy our future and kill our children with sanctions, who gives them the right to talk about our heritage?”

http://www.asiasource.org/news/at_mp_02.cfm?newsid=46971

I usually abstain from giving details to Michael since it interferes with his hatred of Islam and Muslims and forces him to see them as human.

I would say the loss of the Bamian statues is a statement on how little understanding there is of the Afghan way of thought. They prize their independence above everything else and will not be bargained with.

 

[Tyler]

I understand that this came across as insulting, but again I can't say that it's any sort of justification. "They hurt us, so we're going to hurt someone else" just doesn't fly. Doesn't sound very Godly, either.

 

[S.A.M.]

I understand that this came across as insulting, but again I can't say that it's any sort of justification. "They hurt us, so we're going to hurt someone else" just doesn't fly. Doesn't sound very Godly, either.

Not someone else.

To the Pashtun, it was a simple equation. Oh, you're willing to give millions for some old statues while starving us? There, now the statues are out of the way. No bargaining for lives. What now?

And unless westerners understand this simple fact that the Pashtun are independent and will not allow themselves to be held hostage by a puppet, nothing in Afghanistan will ever go the way they think it will.

Enough empires have died trying.


Taliban Explains Buddha Demolition

Taliban: War for War's Sake

The Pashtuns put Pastunwali above any religious leanings.


Also, I should state that the Taliban decision was independent of the Afghan opinion:

This article by Kate Clark, the former BBC correspondent in Kabul, explains the conditions under which she was expelled from Afghanistan (she was the only remaining foreign correspondent in the country). The primary reason had to with her reporting that it was difficult to find an Afghan who agreed with the Taliban’s destruction of the Buddha statues of Bamiyan.


Despite drought, bereavement and the ruination of their country, most Afghans seem to have been touched by the destruction of the collosal statues at Bamiyan. It would be like the destruction of somewhere like Stonehenge in Britain.

They are symbols of the nation, for many people symbols of a more tolerant past, when the rulers of Afghanistan accepted different religions and points of view, where cultures mixed along the great trading routes and the Buddha, a man of the east, could be depicted in Greek clothing.

The destruction of the statues has felt like an attempt to wipe out history. And for a country that has seen so much destruction, this deliberate demolition of something ancient and irreplaceable felt obscene.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/1225226.stm

 

[Nasor]

The point is: If we had a White Supreme standing up there in a Klan robes bitching they she didn't want a nigger touching her, we'd tell her to shut the f*ck up - and to take her stone age bull shit with her. But as soon as it's a Muslim girl wearing her Klan robes, ohh hoo hooo, she doesn't want a non-Muslim touching her. THEN it's OK?!?!?

Actually I would say that anyone should be able to refuse to participate for any reason and not be penalized. It doesn't matter if they're religious or racist or germaphobic or just too stuffy and stuck up to have a stranger touching them.

Of course, everyone else is free to form whatever opinions they wish about any reason that anyone expresses for refusing to participate.

 

[Baron Max]

...simple fact that the Pashtun are independent and will not allow themselves to be held hostage by a puppet, nothing in Afghanistan will ever go the way they think it will.

Then tell what their reasoning is for Pashtuns killing other Pashtuns in Afghanistan? Far, far more Afghanis are killed by other Afghanis that all the US and NATO troops combined.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Still batting zero:

Ask the Afghans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dV6RHNE76s

 

[Baron Max]

Still batting zero: Ask the Afghans....

No, I'm asking you, SAM. Why are Afghanis killing other Afghanis? Ditto for why are Iraqis killing other Iraqis? And ditto for why as Muslims killing other Muslims in such huge numbers? Bombs and suicide attacks every damned day. Why do you cheer such useless efforts?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Same reason why the "patriots" killed "loyalists", the resistance killed the Vichy and the IRA killed collaborators.

Its not rocket science. Puppets and betrayers are often considered enemies of the state.

 

[Baron Max]

Same reason why the "patriots" killed "loyalists", the resistance killed the Vichy and the IRA killed collaborators.

Its not rocket science. Puppets and betrayers are often considered enemies of the state.

So those suicide bombers in the Iraqi markets, loaded with women and little kids, picked out all the "loyalists" in amongst all the others, and killed ONLY the loyalists?

The French resistance didn't intentionally killed women and little kids, SAM.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Those are correlated to "Death Squad" Negroponte more than anything else.

Why doesn't anyone wonder why suicide bombers follow DSN around the globe in places where they never existed before?

 

[Baron Max]

Why doesn't anyone wonder why suicide bombers...?

I think a far more important question is ..why are there suicide bombers at all anywhere in the world? What has any such bombing ever actually accomplished other than killing a few usually-innocent people?

Baron Max

 

[Michael]

I repeat,

through 1400 years of MUSLIMS, the statues were standing.

Every other Buddhist artifact was destroyed SAM, the ONLY reason the statues were left was because the Muslims were not able to destroy them.

First the "West" is blamed for not giving enough money for food aid. Then the "West" is blamed for what exactly? Inventing TNT???

 

[Michael]

RE: Shinto Japanese

Yeah, I think it was wrong to ban Shinto religion. Americans suffer from the same disease as you - monotheism. I've personally met Japanese who are Xian would will not enter Shinto Shrine. I've personally met Americans in Japan who said aloud, Isn't it a shame all these poor Japanese aren't going to heaven. .

With Secularism this line of thought is slowly being tempered and, by education, lost.

M

 

[Michael]

RE: Iraq heritage being destroyed

For this single act alone Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield should be held liable.
I NEVER supported the invasion of Iraq. From the start I maintained Saddam was the rightful ruler and he should have been reinstated as the head of the country.
We can't leave soon enough.

I voted for Obama expressly to gtf out of the ME.


The sooner the better,
Michael

 

[Michael]

There are plenty of other Buddhist and Hindu temples in Afghanistan Michael.

Try not to drench us with your bigoted ignorance.

Well I'd like to see a Buddhist Temple that is not just a looted empty husk.

it's a big country I'm sure there must be some presently being maintained by Europeans.

 

[Michael]

So? Have we moved past the whole "Food Aid" blame the West? It's now - Blame the West for the invention of TNT.


This is how we seeing things differently.

There was a Muslim on this board a long while ago. Maybe still is. He wrote a long bit about how great Islam is. He also said Arabic is the Perfect language. This is something I hear from many Muslims. The reason being the Qur'an is the worlds only Perfect Book. So you can see, thinking Arabic is the perfect language (better than all other langues - as a matter of fact, Allah speaks Arabic). This idea that Arabic is the perfect language is a type of bigotry. There is no "perfect" language. It doesn't make sense to say there is. It's not logical. BUT, the idea that there is, is a NATURAL extension from the idea the Qur'an is perfect.

Continue down this line of reasoning and you will come to the Taliban. They are a NATURAL precipitation of Islam.


In the same manner I have hear WASPs say English is the perfect language. They are equally as ignorant. As a society we have come to the point where saying white people are better then non-white people is wrong. We haven't come to that point in our conversations about religion - but, I am sure, we will.


note: how we see things differently.
For SAM, this guy was just "naive" when he wrote Arabic is the perfect language. Yeah, when an adult says "white people are better than black people" they are just "being naive"? Well, I will agree they are being "ignorant". Just like the person who thought Arabic was the perfect language - they were being "ignorant". Ignorant much better explains this line of reasoning. We have a special word for this type of ignorance when it comes to thinking about skin color - it's called racist.

 

[Michael]

Actually I would say that anyone should be able to refuse to participate for any reason and not be penalized. It doesn't matter if they're religious or racist or germaphobic or just too stuffy and stuck up to have a stranger touching them.

Of course, everyone else is free to form whatever opinions they wish about any reason that anyone expresses for refusing to participate.

I'm going to personally get the details and then I will post them. If the story was overblown, I'll post that, if it was wrong, I'll post that. If it was something said off handly, I'll post that. If it was spot on, I'll post that.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Bell, you mentioned Buddhist statues still destroyed in Pakistan. This is completely false, Pakistan has one of the largest collection of Buddhist artifacts in the world, lest you forget that Pakistan and Afghanistan both were majority Buddhist before Islamic preachers entered the region.

The famous fasting Buddha is one of the most famous statues in Pakistan, and actually portrays a South Asian version of Buddha, which many scientists say corresponds with how Buddha is supposed to have looked. It is an object of pride in Pakistan.

Get your facts straight before spreading false information.