Islam and Cardiovascular Science

[Michael]

Michael, again you refuse to debate the issue. The issue is a women revealing herself in front of strange men, not a Muslim vs. Non-Muslim issue.

I'll tell you what, I ever get one freaken moment of decent free time and I'm going to ask exactly what was the situation.

 

[Michael]

Monotheism is akin to teaching white supremecy.

Tell a nation of people over and over and over for 1000 years that being white makes them superior and don't be shocked when many groups of them self-organize into WASP social organizations that take it one step further and start calling for the blood of non-whites. You see, these precipitates are a reflection of the backwards ideology of teaching people white supremacy. One can look and see they are an NATURAL outgrowth of a intolerance belief system.

the Taliban are but one of many of these precipitates for Islam.


Ask yourself, is your system of belief the same as, better than or below that of polytheistic Shinto? Scientology? Buddhism? Atheism? polytheistic Hindu?

Well?

 

[Michael]

RE: Buddhist Statues

Lets see here DH, lets take a look at Islamic tollerance of other beleif system.

1) When Mahmud of Ghazni (a Caliph) attacked Afghanistan in the eleventh century, the destruction of the Buddhas and frescoes were beyond his understanding therefore he moved on to looting Buddhist monasteries and other important artifacts.

2) Nader Shah (Shaw of Iran) fired cannons at the statues but it was beyond his capabilities as well.


Gee, I suppose when these two Muslims tried to destroy the statues it was "All The Wests" fault as well.

3) They were intentionally dynamited and destroyed in 2001 by the Taliban, on orders from leader Mullah Mohammed Omar, after the Taliban government declared that they were "idols" (which are forbidden under Sharia law).

Information and Culture Minister Qadratullah Jamal told Associated Press of a decision by 400 religious clerics from across Afghanistan declaring the Buddhist statues against the tenets of Islam. "They came out with a consensus that the statues were against Islam," said Jamal.



Not one word about Food Aid. Maybe because that wasn't really the case. What was the case was that fundamental precipitates of an ill conceived ideology did what came NATURAL to their line of reasoning.

 

[S.A.M.]

You get what you pay for.

The statues lasted 1400 years under exclusive Muslim rule.

When the Americans armed the mujahideen, they voted for this.

 

[Michael]

Its all the fault of "The West". . . . . again. Yup, if it were not for the West Communist Chinese would have been rich and glorious.
Please.

Let's see SAM, it says that Mahmud of Ghazni and Nader Shah both tried to smash these ancient statues and that the only reason they didn't was because they didn't have TNT.
Maybe it's a good lesson in who should and should not have access to certain technologies. Some people can not be trusted to act responsibly.
There's no doubt that Mahmud of Ghazni and Nader Shah would have blown them to bits as they had already smashed their way through and raided every and all Buddhist Monasterys they could get their hands on.


The Taliban even don't blame the West! They say they smashed the Ancient Buddhist Statues because they were "Idols". You know, those things you think the "little simple minded people" worship because they need to see and touch something. It's the reason is EXACTLY what they themselves say. Mohammad smashed idols, they smashed idols. Simple case of monkey see monkey do. Hell some people think Mohammad even had the right to kill other humans because they had been worshiping similarly ancient and revered statues in Mecca. Hell, story goes, Mohammad said he wouldn't even stick his little toe into Mecca until his henchmen had smashed every statue, figurine and religious artifact to dust. Sounds to me that Mohammad was pretty much a Taliban.

 

[S.A.M.]

I repeat,

through 1400 years of MUSLIMS, the statues were standing.

Enter the US...

Don't even restrict yourself, look at Iraq, native American culture.

Dreams of converting the Middle East to glass.

Same ole same ole.

Destruction everywhere they go.

Maybe it's a good lesson in who should and should not have access to certain technologies.

No kidding. Who can forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Not to mention this:

Ochiai-san lamented several effects of the American occupation after WW II. First, many if not all Shinto shrines were shut down and all Shinto celebrations banned for several years after the end of the War. Shinto was seen as an enemy religion, a dangerous rallying point for Japanese nationalism and possible resistance to American rule. The American military showed no respect for Shinto shrines, violating the sanctity of the most sacred, innermost chambers of the shrines, places where no one is suposed to go, and removing, that is to say, stealing many sacred objects such as swords, some extremely ancient and precious, ostensibly because these were dangerous weapons which must be removed from where they could cause harm, but more likely because GI Joe wanted an ‘omiyage’ souvenir to show the folks at home. Well, to the victors belong the spoils; it is an old, sad story. As a scholar of Northern European religion, I am reminded of the Christian missionaries in Europe who chopped down majestic sacred trees to ‘prove’ that there was no deity inside and that the heathens must therefore embrace Christianity....

Shinto was also banned from public education. To the present time, there is, according to my friend, no discussion of Shinto in the public schools. Taking together the American conquest of Japan, the closing of shrines, banning of religious activities, and prohibition of education, it becomes clear that much happened to weaken and discredit Shinto and make it something shameful. Like the Emperor, forced to declare on the radio that he was just a human being, not a deity fit to rule the world as taught in militaristic propaganda, Shinto was a symbol of the Japan that was defeated. With domination by American power in the 40s and 50s, American and Western fashions and values were seen as good, economic and technological progress viewed as paramoun and there was no place of honor for Shinto, just a quiet place in the backyard, or on the farm, or in the forest, where it wouldn’t disturb Progress. I now understand that the ‘relaxed’ Japanese attitude toward Shinto (and religion in general) must also be understood as a reaction of shame and identity crisis, and of numbness after the humiliation of WW II and the American-dominated reconstruction....and when Japanese people look at Shinto, it must sometimes be like looking through a cracked window into a dusty old house that they are not sure if they should enter...yet there is much that is good about the old house, the old style, the old traditions, and the question then arises, how to fit together old and new, traditional and modern? The same dilemma in Japan as elsewhere.

http://www.wcer.org/newsletter/oaks2/oaks2_10.html

 

[Bells]

I repeat,

through 1400 years of MUSLIMS, the statues were standing.

I think it has more to do with the fact that they weren't able to blow them up earlier.

Buddhist art in Afghanistan (old Bactria) persisted for several centuries until the spread of Islam in the 7th century. It is exemplified by the Buddhas of Bamyan. Other sculptures, in stucco, schist or clay, display very strong blending of Indian post-Gupta mannerism and Classical influence, Hellenistic or possibly even Greco-Roman.

Although Islamic rule was rather tolerant of other religions "of the Book", it showed little tolerance for Buddhism, which was perceived as a religion depending on idolatry. Human figurative art forms also being prohibited under Islam, Buddhist art suffered numerous attacks, which culminated with the systematic destructions by the Taliban regime. The Buddhas of Bamyan, the sculptures of Hadda, and many of the remaining artifacts at the Afghanistan museum have been destroyed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_art#Afghanistan

They just didn't have the means to destroy them any earlier. They had tried but failed because of the sheer size of the statues.

While those statues may have been standing through Muslim rule, other Buddhist artifacts and monasteries were destroyed through time and war and by the Muslims who occupied the country.

Enter the US...

So it's the US's fault because...? Take a guess and say that without the US, the Taliban would never have been there.. etc? Was it the fault of the US when Nader Shah fired cannons at the statues a couple of hundred years ago when he attempted to destroy them?

Don't even restrict yourself, look at Iraq, native American culture.

Is it the fault of the US that extremists are also destroying Buddhist artifacts and statues in Pakistan?

Same ole same ole.

Destruction everywhere they go.

Ahem. The same can also be said for any invading force, Muslims in the past included.

No kidding. Who can forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Who can indeed. Still doesn't take away the simple fact that the Taliban destroyed the statues. Still doesn't take away from the fact that the destruction of irreplaceable Buddhist artifacts still continues at the hands of extremist in Pakistan, does it?

Yes, the US used nuclear bombs, yes they have killed hundreds of thousands with their weapons, etc. So have Muslims and so have countless of other races, religions, etc. Deflecting the misdeeds of those who follow your religion onto others is kind of lame in my opinion. It doesn't absolve the Taliban of what they have done, nor does it absolve those who are still intent on destroying irreplaceable artifacts. You can deflect as much as you want, blame the US and the West as much as you want, remind everyone of the nuclear weapon and Japan, the American Indians, etc.. that still doesn't take away or stop the simple fact that the destruction of Buddhist artifacts continues as we speak.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah it is. Because they withstood 1400 years of Muslim rule. Nadir Shah and Co. were probably influenced by the British, who destroyed millenia of culture at a go.

I find it rather ludicrous that those aiming MISSILES at cities are worried about the fate of statues. Have you looked at your own countries? Where is the heritage?At least the Taliban are destroying their own heritage. Not occupying some other peoples and destroying theirs.

Bet you missed that little difference.

 

[Bells]

Yeah it is. Because they withstood 1400 years of Muslim rule. Nadir Shah and Co. were probably influenced by the British, who destroyed millenia of culture at a go.

I find it rather ludicrous that those aiming MISSILES at cities are worried about the fate of statues. Have you looked at your own countries? Where is the heritage?At least the Taliban are destroying their own heritage. Not occupying some other peoples and destroying theirs.

Bet you missed that little difference.

Museums. Or shipped off over seas to other museums. Some has been destroyed and other stuff kept under lock and key and studied.

Ah yes, good old Shah.. yep.. had to be the West again.

We'll blame the destruction of other Buddhist artifacts before and after Shah on the West as well shall we?

And we had invaded Afghanistan's cities and were bombing their cities before the statues were destroyed? You do realise those statues didn't just come down in a day or a week, don't you? It took weeks and weeks of intensive bombing by the Taliban to actually destroy them. The US was not invading Afghanistan at that point, nor were they even targeting the cities of Afghanistan, preparing for an invasion. They did it all of their very own.

The Taliban were not destroying their own culture. Last I checked, they weren't Buddhist. I can't believe you are attempting to excuse what they did in such a fashion. So it's acceptable to destroy ancient and irreplaceable artifacts if it is from your own culture? Right...

But lets run with your argument that it is their own culture they destroyed. In doing so they robbed their culture and coming generations of a vastly important historical monument that can never be replaced. They have robbed future generations of something of great cultural and historical value. I guess you missed that little bit, didn't you?

 

[S.A.M.]

Its their own culture. They used to be Buddhist. There are no Buddhists in Afghanistan now.

But lets run with your argument that it is their own culture they destroyed. In doing so they robbed their culture and coming generations of a vastly important historical monument that can never be replaced. They have robbed future generations of something of great cultural and historical value. I guess you missed that little bit, didn't you?

Ironic isn't it? They're getting liberated. Soon they will run bulldozers over their heritage and build cities.

So it's acceptable to destroy ancient and irreplaceable artifacts if it is from your own culture? Right...

I don't recall any apologies from anyone else. Its what people have done across the world.

In “The Smash of Civilizations”, Chalmers Johnson fleshes out the details of the destruction and looting that followed in the wake of the blitzkrieg of Iraq, the largest-scale looting since the Mongol invasion of 1258, according to one Oxford professor. We all heard about the looting of Baghdad museum, but how many realized that the ancient city of Ur, “the literal heartland of human civilization” was chosen by the US military as the precise spot for two 10,000 foot runways, the construction of which “completely ruined” the area? Or that the 2,600-year old brick pavement at Babylon has now been thoroughly crushed by US military vehicles? Or that, before the invasion, a team of internationally renowned archeologists held three separate meetings with the Pentagon specifically to warn them about the dangers of looting? Obviously all this is as nothing compared to the human destruction heaped on Iraq — but nevertheless, for Iraqis, for whom “civilization” is more than just an excuse to knock people over the head, it is another body blow — as indeed it is for all of us.

 

[Bells]

Its their own culture. They used to be Buddhist. There are no Buddhists in Afghanistan now.

Nope. All other religions that used to exist in what is now known as Afghanistan were made to convert to Islam hundreds of years ago.

Ironic isn't it? They're getting liberated. Soon they will run bulldozers over their heritage and build cities.

What heritage? They have destroyed everything that was their part of the ancient heritage of the country.

I don't recall any apologies from anyone else. Its what people have done across the world.

Apologies to whom and from whom? The Taliban never apologised for their wilfull destruction of Afghanistan's ancient history. Quite the contrary, they blatantly stated that idolatry was against their religious beliefs. Was it a valid argument? No, it was not. Buddhism was a vital part of Afghanistan's history and to destroy it as they did, when it should have been maintained, was criminal.

I believe most countries that were colonised have recognised the destruction of artifacts and cultures and have apologised for it. Whatever is left is guarded and viewed as national treasures. Even land and caves that served as historical importance or contained artifacts and art are guarded and kept out of harms way. In Australia for example, many areas that have ancient Aboriginal Art are quite literally museums in the wild, cared for by Indigenous Australians and lauded as a vitally important part of this country's history.

I think if anyone attempted to bomb or destroy such valuable artifacts in Australia, they would have around 20 million people tearing the skin from their backs.

 

[S.A.M.]

Is that why there has been an international hullabaloo over the destruction of Babylon?

The people of Australia did not have much to say when they were stealing the children of aborigines.

I guess now that the "progressive" nations have completed the genocide and destruction of their own heritage they feel compelled to direct everyone elses

Too bad, stuff happens. Everyone is entitled to make their own choices. The Babri Masjid was blown up, we got over it. No Buddhists are weeping for the statues. The 2600 year old bricks of Babylon are gone, crushed under the US military tanks.

Get over it. The people of Afghanistan have more immediate issues than some old statues that no one knew of before they were blown up.

 

[Baron Max]

Is that why there has been an international hullabaloo over the destruction of Babylon? .... The 2600 year old bricks of Babylon are gone, crushed under the US military tanks.

Babylon was only a big pile of bricks and stones when the US got there! So are you saying that the tanks messed up that pile of rubble?

Baron Max

 

[Bells]

To add to respond to your edit and the addition of the quote..

Who looted the museums in Iraq? Wasn't it the Iraqi people who looted everything they could?

I would suggest you read this article as it might open your eyes a bit.

Yes, the US did destroy many archaeological sites in Iraq, but they have also done a lot to restore a lot of the artifacts that were stolen during the invasion.

On April 16, 2003, the U.S. military deployed a counterterrorism team to lead a global investigation to recover Iraq’s stolen antiquities. The initiative began with the expansion of an amnesty law throughout the country to encourage the safe return of items with “no questions asked.” As a result, from April to November of that year, Bogdanos claims, “almost 2,000 different pieces were returned to the Iraq museum from almost 2,000 different people for almost 2,000 different reasons.” More stolen artifacts were recovered through raids. Weapons caches and antiquities are invariably uncovered together in such operations. Antiquities smuggling funds insurgent groups in Iraq.

International cooperation and information sharing was also encouraged with the assistance of eight countries. Jordan and Syria have proven to be two of the most cooperative of Iraq’s neighbors in assisting with seizures, while Iran and Turkey have kept silent on the issue of cross-border smuggling. International cooperation has revealed a billion dollar global enterprise of antiquities smuggling involving smugglers, dealers, collectors, archaeologists and academics (without whom the items could not be authenticated). Ninety percent of the trafficking in Iraq antiquities travels through Baghdad, Damascus, Beirut, Geneva, Amman and Dubai to arrive at either New York, London, Paris or Tokyo.

http://www.usip.org/pubs/usipeace_briefings/2008/1029_iraq_heritage.html

But hey, it's their history and culture, right?

 

[S.A.M.]

Babylon was only a big pile of bricks and stones when the US got there! So are you saying that the tanks messed up that pile of rubble?

Baron Max

You'll have to ask the people protecting the sticks and stones. I'm distracted by the human losses.

 

[Baron Max]

Who looted the museums in Iraq? Wasn't it the Iraqi people who looted everything they could?

Yeah, but SAM doesn't like to see or talk about that side of the issue! Just like Iraqis killing thousands of Iraqis, yet SAM says the US did it! ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

To add to respond to your edit and the addition of the quote..

Who looted the museums in Iraq? Wasn't it the Iraqi people who looted everything they could?

I would suggest you read this article as it might open your eyes a bit.

Yes, the US did destroy many archaeological sites in Iraq, but they have also done a lot to restore a lot of the artifacts that were stolen during the invasion.

But hey, it's their history and culture, right?

Oh well that makes it alright then. I'm sure if you were to lose your family, you'd be glad that they at least restored the artifacts.

 

[Baron Max]

You'll have to ask the people protecting the sticks and stones. I'm distracted by the human losses.

Human losses? Like when Iraqi blow up other Iraqis? Or Afghanis blow up other Afghanis? Or Palestinians blowing up other Palestinians?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Human losses? Like when Iraqi blow up other Iraqis? Or Afghanis blow up other Afghanis? Or Palestinians blowing up other Palestinians?

Baron Max

Yeah, that kind of desperation is terrible to watch. You'll understand when it comes to your neighborhood.

Note that none of these was happening before the west got their greedy paws on them.

 

[Baron Max]

Yeah, that kind of desperation is terrible to watch. You'll understand when it comes to your neighborhood.

Terrible to watch? No, it's fun ...idiotic Iraqis blowing up their fellow men and women? Hell, that's lots more fun than some of the new video games!

When some enemy soldiers invade the USA, I'm going to start killing Americans by the trainload until the invaders leave my country. Such a marvelous and intelligent method of fighting the invaders, huh?

Note that none of these was happening before the west got their greedy paws on them.

Yep, there was nothing but peace and tranquility, milk and honey, before the west arrived. ...LOL! You don't know history very well do you, SAM?

Baron Max