Is there anything wrong to marry your cousin?

[Hapsburg]

Still doesn't explain WHY incest is wrong. You're just saying it's wrong because YOU say so and because YOU think inbreeding = bad...whereas, in reality (y'know, the thing that's real and not in you warped moralistic mind), incest doesn't automatically result in gentic difficulties. It takes generations, centuries, of doing so, and very close-knit relations, as well. Uncle-niece is farther apart than cousin-cousin, which is in turn farther apart from sibling-sibling. Saint's relationship shouldn't result in excessive problems, logically.

 

[Kotoko]

I am telling you that people with doctorates in psychiatry, and sociology have heavily documented the mental and emotional damage that is done by incest.

You have completely ignored that.

We are no longer talking about genetics. We are talking about emotional and mental abuse by a person in power over a person not in power. This is what incest is about. In every case of incest, one has been in charge of the other in some way. Therefore, the relationship contains a dynamic not seen in ordinary healthy relationships. Even brother/sister relationships have that dynamic as one sibling is almost always the dominant/older sibling which has been put in charge of the other by a parent. The unseen, and possibly undetected force of that power is where the relationship is wrong and emotionally damaging.

Perhaps, this niece does not feel she can tell anyone and feels threatened by the secrecy of it. She is now trapped and can not do anything about it.

 

[Bells]

Still doesn't explain WHY incest is wrong. You're just saying it's wrong because YOU say so and because YOU think inbreeding = bad...whereas, in reality (y'know, the thing that's real and not in you warped moralistic mind), incest doesn't automatically result in gentic difficulties. It takes generations, centuries, of doing so, and very close-knit relations, as well. Uncle-niece is farther apart than cousin-cousin, which is in turn farther apart from sibling-sibling. Saint's relationship shouldn't result in excessive problems, logically.

For one thing, uncle/niece are closer than cousin/cousin.

I'd suggest you read this report for starters and you tell me whether the risk of defects in the child should not be outweighed against the parents sexual needs. Not only are the children more at risk of having congenital defects, but they appear to also have a higher mortality rate and most of the problems that can and do arise from offspring of an incestious relationship do not show themselves until the child has reached infancy.

As to why it is wrong.. I'd think that the threat of birth defects and an increased morbidity and mortality rate would be first on the list.. wouldn't you? But the psychological reasons for not only the partners but also their possible offspring also shows cause for concern. If Saint is apprehensive of how the girl's parents are going to react.. how do you think the girl feels? She could be completely ostracised from her family and her friends if this gets out and if they plan to marry (how is still beyond me as in most countries it's seen as illegal), it will become public. I mean if he thinks they're going to kill him for it.. what in the world are they going to do to the girl.. their own daughter?

The love they feel for each other may be real, but the consequences of that love will be far reaching. Their children will have to grow up with the stigma that their parents are so closely related and Saint and the girl will also have to live the consequences of not only putting their future offspring at additional risk of death and defects (both mental and physical) but they also face the risk of complete and utter separation from their families. Now one could say that they don't care about what others think but the fact that they're trying to keep it hidden from her parents, and I'm guessing his own, shows that they do care what their families think. I can tell you now, they won't be able to legally adopt a child as I can't see any court granting a couple, involved in an incestous relationship with each other, custody of any child.

 

[GeoffP]

Still doesn't explain WHY incest is wrong. You're just saying it's wrong because YOU say so and because YOU think inbreeding = bad...whereas, in reality (y'know, the thing that's real and not in you warped moralistic mind), incest doesn't automatically result in gentic difficulties. It takes generations, centuries, of doing so, and very close-knit relations, as well. Uncle-niece is farther apart than cousin-cousin, which is in turn farther apart from sibling-sibling. Saint's relationship shouldn't result in excessive problems, logically.

Wrong. Or half right - for while sibs are closer than cousins, so is uncle-niece.

Uncle-niece has two links, cousin-cousin three. Do the math:

Uncle - (f=0.5) - Father Uncle - (f=0.5) - Father
| | |
(f=0.5) (f=0.5) (f=0.5)
| | |
Daughter (niece) Son (cousin #1) Daughter (csn #2)

For uncle-daugher, F (inbreeding coefficient) = 0.25
For cousin-cousin, F = 0.5^3 = 0.125, or half F of for above

I'm no psychology expert, but the emotional issues don't seem balanced either, and strike me as horrifically damaging. This "Saint" is in a clear position of power over his niece.

I also reiterate: genetic abnormality is indeed, like everything else in the known universe, a question of probability. But why would anyone knowingly increase such probabilty because they can't keep it in their pants when Cousin Suzy comes a-visiting?

But, if you like, bang your cousin and increase the likelihood of defect by concentrating deleterious recessives. Off you go. And when you drive her to the hospital for the birth, be sure not to buckle your safety belts. Seriously - have you ever really had a serious accident? Come on, they're just window dressing. Same for inebriation, really - you can't tell me that every single person who's had too many drinks actually causes an accident.

And when the ambulance and fire trucks arrive to dig you out of the wreckage of your car, I hope you've never bothered wasting time to see whether or not you're allergic to the penicillin they're going to pump you full of to counteract potential infection from the deep, penetrating wounds you're going to suffer - I mean: come on! How many people ever die of that? Just get a road beer and be happy.

Statistics...who needs em? Right? Are you with me?

/sarc off

Geoff

 

[GeoffP]

Gah! My diagram didn't work.

Here's a simpler one:

Uncle - 0.5 - Father - 0.5 - Niece = F = 0.5^2 = 0.25
Cousin - 0.5 - Parent - 0.5 - Uncle - 0.5 - Cousin = F = 0.5^3 = 0.125

'Nuff said.

Geoff

 

[mountainhare]

Kotoko:

I am telling you that people with doctorates in psychiatry, and sociology have heavily documented the mental and emotional damage that is done by incest.

You have completely ignored that.

Yes, 'we' have ignored that, because you have failed these so-called cases of 'mental and emotional' damage. Merely saying that they exist is a far cry from them actually existing, isn't it now?

And yes, it would be amazing if someone in an incestuous relationship was emotionally/mentally damaged. Because we all know that people in homosexual or heterosexual non-incestous relationships never suffer mental or emotional damage.

are talking about emotional and mental abuse by a person in power over a person not in power. This is what incest is about. In every case of incest, one has been in charge of the other in some way.

So even if they are both mature adults, one partner still has power over the other partner?

Therefore, the relationship contains a dynamic not seen in ordinary healthy relationships.

Are you meaning to tell me that in normal healthy marriages, both partners are equal? LOL!

Even brother/sister relationships have that dynamic as one sibling is almost always the dominant/older sibling which has been put in charge of the other by a parent.

Which becomes completely fucking irrelevant when they are both mature adults.

Perhaps, this niece does not feel she can tell anyone and feels threatened by the secrecy of it. She is now trapped and can not do anything about it.

Perhaps she is having the time of her life. Perhaps she has a minature jetpack, and is secretly a chobit? Hey, I enjoy making these baseless claims! Evidence? Pwah! Who needs evidence?!

Bells:

I'd suggest you read this report for starters and you tell me whether the risk of defects in the child should not be outweighed against the parents sexual needs.

Contraception?

Of course, you could always claim that there is a 0.0000000001% chance that the woman might get pregnant and produce a child who has suffered from detrimental mutations.

But if you are going to be fair and consistent, you should also claim that heterosexual relationships are immoral. After all, they can also produce freakish offspring.

 

[Kotoko]

http://www.polity.co.uk/book.asp?ref=0745624162

http://ezinearticles.com/?Common-Myths-About-Child-Sexual-Abuse-and-Incest&id=114314

http://www.tamarashouse.sk.ca/myths.html

http://joy2meu.com/sexual_abuse.html

Unfortunately, most of the best papers on the subject are published in Psychology Textbooks, and yearly compilations of different doctors. There is little refrence online, but if you even care to argue instead of creating strawmen and fallacies, you could try to form a good argument for incest instead of just asserting "Why not."

 

[mountainhare]

Good, Kotoko. You've copied and pasted links. My opinion of your intelligence has increased a notch, but you still have to demonstrate that you are more capable than a pig manipulating a joystick. Quote the relevant sections from the links you posted. Explain why they support your argument. I'm not going to read your articles if you fail to demonstrate that you have done likewise. And I'm also not a mind reader... I don't know what parts of the article you feel support your argument.

but if you even care to argue instead of creating strawmen and fallacies,

*squawk* Strawman *squawk* Fallacies *squawk*. Why don't you point out where I made strawman arguments, moron?

you could try to form a good argument for incest instead of just asserting "Why not."

'Why not' is highly appropriate, since you and your cohort of moralistic bigots have yet to give an appropriate explaination as to why incest should not be allowed. All that I've heard of is something about power imbalances between mature adults, and something about deformed children. Not very convincing!

 

[Saint]

Is it ok to have sex only but not marrying my cousin?

 

[Kotoko]

Because we all know that people in homosexual or heterosexual non-incestous relationships never suffer mental or emotional damage.

Strawman.

Which becomes completely fucking irrelevant when they are both mature adults.

Fallacy. Read my links.

And that's just the beginning. Instead of forming an actual argument, you just keep asserting unbacked bullshit and strawmen. You are so quick to assert that I am a moron, whilst making yourself out to be the biggest one in the thread. You can't seem to form an argument at all, despite the mounting evidence provided that incest does cause serious mental and emotional problems. I am not a "moralistic bigot" if there even was such a thing. I am not talking about morals, fucktard... I am talking about mental health. Trying actually thinking before you post.

 

[Bells]

Which becomes completely fucking irrelevant when they are both mature adults.

So you think that once they reach the age of adulthood, they are no longer related? The power over another sibling does not disappear once they become adults. In some instances it intensifies and becomes stronger. In other cases weaker. But it continues to exist.

So even if they are both mature adults, one partner still has power over the other partner?

He is what? Nine years older than she is? And he's her uncle or cousin? Then yes, you're damn straight that he has some power over her. Look at the relationship that you have with the older people in your own family and you're telling me that they and their opinions don't have any power over you?

Are you meaning to tell me that in normal healthy marriages, both partners are equal? LOL!

In some they may not be equal but their relationship will not have the same dynamics that an uncle may have with his niece or cousins may share with each other. This is what you seem to have problems grasping.

But if you are going to be fair and consistent, you should also claim that heterosexual relationships are immoral. After all, they can also produce freakish offspring.

But there is a lesser chance. A much lesser chance that a sexual relationship between non-related people will produce a child with congenital defects. Many people who know of a particular disease that exists in their families will get themselves tested before they decide to have children with a non-related partner. The issue with incest is that not only are they at more risk of having children with problems that in many instances won't show themselves until they are a lot older, but their children also have a much higher mortality rate. The children born from incest have a much higher chance that their children will have a problem. If both parents carry the genes to a certain illness, etc, that exists in their bloodline, then they are putting that child at further risk. Non-related partners have distance in their bloodlines. Related partners do not and problems can and do manifest themselves.

Kotoko is right. You have failed to provide even one argument as to why incest is good and why people should partake in incestious relationships.

Is it ok to have sex only but not marrying my cousin?

So now she's your cousin? We've gone from her being your cousin, then niece and now back to cousin again. What's going to be next? Will she be your sister or mother next? Maybe your aunt? Or your dog? Cat? Monkey?

Saint, YOU should NOT be having sex with anyone for the pure and simple fact that there will always be a risk that you might impregnate the girl.. Stupidity should never breed even more stupidity.

 

[mountainhare]

Kotoko:

Originally Posted by mountainhare
Because we all know that people in homosexual or heterosexual non-incestous relationships never suffer mental or emotional damage. ”

Strawman.

No, it is not a strawman, nitwit. I'm trying to point out that ANY relationship, incestuous or non-incestuous, has the potential for emotional and mental damage. You frown on incestuous relationships because they have the potential to inflict emotional and mental damage... why not non-incestuous relationships?

Fallacy. Read my links

Oh, and you haven't summarized those links you posted. Which tells me that you didn't even give them a passing glance. And then you expect me to read them in depth, and address them. Which is difficult, since you haven't stated which particular sections you feel actually support your fallicious arguments, and why they do so.

But I'll cut you some slack. You're obviously some stupid kid who hasn't been taught by her English teacher on how to support her arguments.

And crying 'Fallacy' doesn't make it so. But hey, since when did her almighty Kotoko need to elaborate on her assertions?

And that's just the beginning. Instead of forming an actual argument, you just keep asserting unbacked bullshit and strawmen.

Bla bla bla, boo hoo hoo.

You are so quick to assert that I am a moron,

Which you are.

whilst making yourself out to be the biggest one in the thread.

By asking for you to actually demonstrate that you have read the links which you have posted?

You can't seem to form an argument at all,

You seem to have language comprehension problems.

despite the mounting evidence provided that incest does cause serious mental and emotional problems.

You've provided no fucking evidence, you've just slapped a couple of URLs on your post. URLs are of no value to me... evidence is. Once again, demonstrate that you are more intelligent than a pig with a joystick, and...

1. Quote the sections which are relevant to your argument from those links.
2. Explain why they are relevant.

That demonstrates to me that you have read your own links in depth, and aren't just throwing URL's around to look like a big girl.

I am not a "moralistic bigot"

Except when people are engaging in activities which you think are vile.

I am not talking about morals, fucktard... I am talking about mental health.

So you don't regard actions which cause mental health problems as immoral? Interesting...

Trying actually thinking before you post.

Perhaps you should start practicising what you preach.

 

[Bells]

At least she's backing up her argument. What have you done to back up yours?.. *Looks back through this thread and finds nothing from you*..

She's asked you a particular question before which you so obviously ignored...

Why don't you show proof that an incestuous relationship is something that is good? Why, in your opinion, is incest good? And where is the proof to back up your claims?

I'm trying to point out that ANY relationship, incestuous or non-incestuous, has the potential for emotional and mental damage. You frown on incestuous relationships because they have the potential to inflict emotional and mental damage... why not non-incestuous relationships?

Yes, any relationship can cause emotional damage. But in this discussion we are discussing incestuous relationships. She's not saying that non-incestuous relationships can't cause emotional damge.. she's saying that incestuous relationships have a higher chance to cause this kind of damage.

Oh, and you haven't summarized those links you posted. Which tells me that you didn't even give them a passing glance. And then you expect me to read them in depth, and address them. Which is difficult, since you haven't stated which particular sections you feel actually support your fallicious arguments, and why they do so.

Hey if you're too lazy to even glace through those articles then that's your issue. Why should she summarise them? They are there for you to read at your leisure.

But I'll cut you some slack. You're obviously some stupid kid who hasn't been taught by her English teacher on how to support her arguments.

And yet, you have failed to provide ANY support for your argument. Hmm...

By asking for you to actually demonstrate that you have read the links which you have posted?

And where are your links? You don't even have to summarise them.. just give the damn things so that we know you have something.. anything.. to back up your argument. Because at the moment you're making yourself out to be a much bigger arse than I could ever have given you credit for. Blaming and attacking her for putting up links that aren't summarised because you are either (a) too stupid.. (b) too lazy.. (you pick).. to read shows that you have nothing to back up your own point of view..

 

[mountainhare]

Bells:

At least she's backing up her argument.

No, she hasn't. Posting links without summarizing, commenting and drawing on relevant info =/= backing up your argument. Any retard can post a link.

What have you done to back up yours?.. *Looks back through this thread and finds nothing from you*..

I don't need to back up anything. My position is the default one. If moralistic bigots can't support their claims that incestuous relationships are innately harmful, then there is no solid reason as to why we should consider incestuous relationships immoral.

Why don't you show proof that an incestuous relationship is something that is good?

Where did I ever claim that incest was good? Do you think that homosexuality is good?
I claimed that incest wasn't morally wrong, due to the lack of bigots to demonstrate that incestuous relationships are, by there very nature, harmful. And that this harm occurs without the consent of both parties.

Personally, whether incest is appropriate comes down to personal taste, not issues of morality.

Why, in your opinion, is incest good? And where is the proof to back up your claims?

Why, in your opinion, is homosexuality good? And where is the proof to back up your claims? Hey, aren't straw man arguments, and shifting the burden of proof fallacies, fun! Because obviously I need to justify an activity which is morally neutral, instead of asking moralistic bigots to justify why that action is immoral.

And where are your links? You don't even have to summarise them.. just give the damn things so that we know you have something.. anything.. to back up your argument.

www.asdf.com

That link supports my argument. I'm not going to quote the relevant sections, and I'm not going to justify why those particular sections support my arguments. I'm just going to leave you guessing.

Hey, you have no qualms about Kotoko using that tactic, so don't go bitching at me when I do exactly the same thing!

 

[android]

This thread is so... internetty.

 

[Hapsburg]

Strawman.

Bendy or rigid straws?

 

[An4401]

Alright Im new but I have this question thats really been buggin me lol.

So picture this: I had a grandfather who had my mom who had me. Now my grandfather had a half-brother because they had the same dad but different moms. So the halfbrother had a son who had a girl. She comes out being my second-cousin (i think) so is it wrong that we kind of have this thing for each other?

 

[RickyH]

Alright Im new but I have this question thats really been buggin me lol.

So picture this: I had a grandfather who had my mom who had me. Now my grandfather had a half-brother because they had the same dad but different moms. So the halfbrother had a son who had a girl. She comes out being my second-cousin (i think) so is it wrong that we kind of have this thing for each other?

Well that is like a second half cousin. So i don't think so. It's legal for mariage and what not. But in my opinion with these matters it's how close you are to that cousin. Like if you grew up with her, that would make it kinda weird. Even still i guess it woudln't be too wrong in common standards. However don't be suprised if some one get's a little upset.

 

[An4401]

Yea cuz like I know we're related but not by much. And I didn't even know she existed until 2 weeks ago and found out she was my 2nd Half-cousin til I a lil later. And I kno somebody in my family who married his cousin so I was like uhhhhhh lol.

 

[Saint]

just have sex will be good enough.