Is there a version of eternity...

[greenberg]

Greenberg, why do you assume you don't decay for eternity? A long logarithmic slide into oblivion?

It's a matter of logical analysis:

For a tooth to rot would take x units of time. Right? This is how the concept of decay works - in a particular extent of time, the decay takes place, until it is complete.

For example, "It took uncle Tom's molar 45 years to rot."
Now, if we keep the same conceptual structure, and replace the time unit "45 years" with "eternity", we get:
"It took uncle Tom's molar an eternity to rot."
When does eternity finish? Never. Ergo, the decay has never completed. Ergo, uncle Tom's molar never rot.

 

[lightgigantic]

JDawg

I just had a thought, but I'm not sure if it's big enough for its own thread...it might be a bit off-topic...well, it is off-topic, but it concerns eternity, so it's not all that off-topic...

Anyway, hasn't anyone ever wondered just what the hell the point of a heaven would be? Think about it...doesn't the whole notion of it sound ridiculous? The idea of spending forever someplace? Aside from that, what's the point? Couldn't a god just as easily let us blink out of existence at death? Don't you think that's better than having to contemplate eternity? Better yet, how would it be worse? It's not even an "all or nothing" question, since you'd never know you were missing out.

Anybody?

The notion of eternity becomes repulsive when we determine its value by material standards. As you accurately determine, death is a great mercy in this world since there is no eternal platform of pleasure.

The argument is, however, that there is a different value involved in a liberated existence. In other words, there is a type of pleasure afforded in liberated existence that if fully accommodating to an eternal identity. In this world we don't find any "object" (whether it is one's car, one's family and friends, one's fame or even one's body) that is resistant to change. Nonetheless, we adamantly serve these objects in the pursuit of pleasure.

The idea of heaven is that god is the centre of service, and god (unlike practically anything else we experience in this world) does not change. If one comes to the state of dovetailing one's desire to finding pleasure in god, then that is sufficient to qualify them for liberated existence. Unfortunately we get waylaid by illusion and more often then not find pleasure in things which will shortly not exist ... so the whole scene becomes one of the cheater and the cheated ... which is certainly an unpleasant prospect for eternity

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

JDawg

The notion of eternity becomes repulsive when we determine its value by material standards. As you accurately determine, death is a great mercy in this world since there is no eternal platform of pleasure.

The argument is, however, that there is a different value involved in a liberated existence. In other words, there is a type of pleasure afforded in liberated existence that if fully accommodating to an eternal identity. In this world we don't find any "object" (whether it is one's car, one's family and friends, one's fame or even one's body) that is resistant to change. Nonetheless, we adamantly serve these objects in the pursuit of pleasure.

The idea of heaven is that god is the centre of service, and god (unlike practically anything else we experience in this world) does not change. If one comes to the state of dovetailing one's desire to finding pleasure in god, then that is sufficient to qualify them for liberated existence. Unfortunately we get waylaid by illusion and more often then not find pleasure in things which will shortly not exist ... so the whole scene becomes one of the cheater and the cheated ... which is certainly an unpleasant prospect for eternity

Hell.
1111

 

[Simon Anders]

Duration itself cannot be evaluated sans is context.

A very logical answer. Do you ever find anything appealing or unappealing despite what logic indicates you should feel?

 

[lightgigantic]

Hell.
1111

meanwhile, make yourself at home (complete with rotting molars, dead hamsters and fleeting youth or whatever ...)

 

[swarm]

A very logical answer. Do you ever find anything appealing or unappealing despite what logic indicates you should feel?

Actually its experiencial and just coincidentally logical as well.

If I tell you you are going to spend some time, is that appealing with no idea how it is spent?

Time itself is necessary but not sufficient to having a good time.

There is however a potential exception to this. One would presume there is a point at which one who is enlightened is complete unto himself, empty, unmoved, at peace. Such a person's state would no longer be effected by external considerations and eternity in heaven or hell would be no different one from the other.

Of course since eternity, perfectly enlightened beings, heaven and hell are all just idle chatter, we are left with actual time and real people who do things in time, derive experience from the combination and become tired of what they are doing.

 

[Enmos]

Still, death is at the center of it. So by what you've said here, it sounds like you believe it meant to serve those who feared death itself, rather than the loss of someone they love.

See, I tend to think it goes the other way. We have such elaborate funerals and burials and tombs and things of that sort, I tend to think that the notion of the afterlife and all of that stuff was simply to ease grief rather than fear. I think using it as a reward in war probably came later.

Perhaps you're right.

 

[Enmos]

You mean that faith has lasted so long? Or specifically the belief in an afterlife?

Don't you remember being a kid and believing in something like Santa, or the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy? Or the monster in your closet, or under your bed? When you don't know the answer to something--when you can't know the answer--it's very easy to just give it attributes anyway. Consider the nature of faith--it's all about death. Every reward of faith comes in this supposed afterlife--not in mortal life, but the afterlife. All of it is centered around things we just don't know. That's why it's stuck.

I mean faith in a god.. religions.
I see what you mean with the kid-story, but usually people grow up and see how things really are. Why does religion stick ?

 

[Simon Anders]

Actually its experiencial and just coincidentally logical as well.

If I tell you you are going to spend some time, is that appealing with no idea how it is spent?

In a sense your rhetorical question is in part an answer. For you it would depend on what you were doing, the mere idea of an unbelievably long time is not daunting for you. We've been talking about eternity - I am aware of non-durational versions of this, but since you mention 'some time' above I will look at Joe on the street's version. Given your rhetorical - and perhaps also actual - question above, I get the impression that a billion years, as long as you expect to be experiencing this or that and not experiencing certain other things, at least regularly, could be at worst not unappealing.

I think there are other people who would find the idea daunting or scary.

So this last response to me, which expresses the ideas rather universally, it seems to me is actually a specific, personal response. Which is, of course, what I am looking for, at least also.

 

[swarm]

It's a matter of logical analysis:

For a tooth to rot would take x units of time. Right? This is how the concept of decay works - in a particular extent of time, the decay takes place, until it is complete.

For example, "It took uncle Tom's molar 45 years to rot."
Now, if we keep the same conceptual structure, and replace the time unit "45 years" with "eternity", we get:
"It took uncle Tom's molar an eternity to rot."
When does eternity finish? Never. Ergo, the decay has never completed. Ergo, uncle Tom's molar never rot.

You have made a crucial mistake here. Uncle Tom's molars never finish rotting, or rather at they do when t = eternity, but they do the most significant portion of their rotting in the beginning and continue to rot forever.

An endless decay.

 

[greenberg]

You have made a crucial mistake here. Uncle Tom's molars never finish rotting, or rather at they do when t = eternity, but they do the most significant portion of their rotting in the beginning and continue to rot forever.

An endless decay.

In that case, the teeth have to renew to some extent forever too, so that there is dental matter to rot for all eternity; and if they renew, it can't rightfully be said that they are rotting.


Anyway, this is a logical and practical cunundrum, and I am not sure that the conceptual framework of our usual everyday experience of impermanence and change can be adequately transfered onto eternity.

We sometimes tend to think that eternity is simply life as we usually know it, but prolonged indefinitely, without there being a death at the end, only age.

But there are "versions" of eternity where there is no birth, aging, illness and death, so most of what we usually think is "real" wouldn't apply there to begin with.

 

[Balerion]

JDawg

The notion of eternity becomes repulsive when we determine its value by material standards. As you accurately determine, death is a great mercy in this world since there is no eternal platform of pleasure.

The argument is, however, that there is a different value involved in a liberated existence. In other words, there is a type of pleasure afforded in liberated existence that if fully accommodating to an eternal identity. In this world we don't find any "object" (whether it is one's car, one's family and friends, one's fame or even one's body) that is resistant to change. Nonetheless, we adamantly serve these objects in the pursuit of pleasure.

The idea of heaven is that god is the centre of service, and god (unlike practically anything else we experience in this world) does not change. If one comes to the state of dovetailing one's desire to finding pleasure in god, then that is sufficient to qualify them for liberated existence. Unfortunately we get waylaid by illusion and more often then not find pleasure in things which will shortly not exist ... so the whole scene becomes one of the cheater and the cheated ... which is certainly an unpleasant prospect for eternity

Well, I suppose that's as fair an answer as there is.

I mean faith in a god.. religions.
I see what you mean with the kid-story, but usually people grow up and see how things really are. Why does religion stick ?

Because the questions answered by the existence of a god don't always have other obvious alternatives. Consider what it was that made you realize Santa didn't really exist; likely, it was either catching your parents in the act, or hearing every other kid at school say it wasn't true because their parents said so. If you lived in a bubble where you couldn't really have access to the alternatives to the story, you'd probably still believe in Santa.

Religion is similar. Can you tell me what created the universe? Can you tell me why the universe exists? Can you tell me what happens to our consciousness when we die? Because the quickest, easiest answer is "God did it", that's what makes religion last. If the day ever comes that we can answer those questions, you'll see religion fade. Of course, they'll likely be replaced by new religions that answer the new questions that will inevitably arrise.

 

[Enmos]

In that case, the teeth have to renew to some extent forever too, so that there is dental matter to rot for all eternity; and if they renew, it can't rightfully be said that they are rotting.


Anyway, this is a logical and practical cunundrum, and I am not sure that the conceptual framework of our usual everyday experience of impermanence and change can be adequately transfered onto eternity.

We sometimes tend to think that eternity is simply life as we usually know it, but prolonged indefinitely, without there being a death at the end, only age.

But there are "versions" of eternity where there is no birth, aging, illness and death, so most of what we usually think is "real" wouldn't apply there to begin with.

Green they just rot and fall out and then you have to live eternity without teeth.
Why do you think time grinds to virtual hold when you live forever ? It makes no sense.

 

[Enmos]

Because the questions answered by the existence of a god don't always have other obvious alternatives. Consider what it was that made you realize Santa didn't really exist; likely, it was either catching your parents in the act, or hearing every other kid at school say it wasn't true because their parents said so. If you lived in a bubble where you couldn't really have access to the alternatives to the story, you'd probably still believe in Santa.

Religion is similar. Can you tell me what created the universe? Can you tell me why the universe exists? Can you tell me what happens to our consciousness when we die? Because the quickest, easiest answer is "God did it", that's what makes religion last. If the day ever comes that we can answer those questions, you'll see religion fade. Of course, they'll likely be replaced by new religions that answer the new questions that will inevitably arrise.

All excellent points, and I agree.
However, I don't believe people believe in god to explain the creation of the universe (if such a thing even happened in the first place), what happens after you die, etc.
It's simply because they have been indoctrinated to believe. I don't think many theists have come to believe through a rational process.

 

[greenberg]

Green they just rot and fall out and then you have to live eternity without teeth.

In which case it cannot be said that they rot forever.

Why do you think time grinds to virtual hold when you live forever ? It makes no sense.

It seems that your understanding of eternity is basically this:
"Eternity is simply life as we usually know it, but prolonged indefinitely, without there being a death at the end, only age."

 

[greenberg]

However, I don't believe people believe in god to explain the creation of the universe (if such a thing even happened in the first place), what happens after you die, etc.
It's simply because they have been indoctrinated to believe. I don't think many theists have come to believe through a rational process.

Agreed. Hence at least in some religious traditions, there is focus on eliminating blind faith and pursuing direct knowledge/perception.

 

[Enmos]

In which case it cannot be said that they rot forever.

No, but you made that assertion, no one else did.

It seems that your understanding of eternity is basically this:
"Eternity is simply life as we usually know it, but prolonged indefinitely, without there being a death at the end, only age."

That's my understanding of living forever. Why should it be anything else ?
Eternity in itself doesn't require life.

 

[Balerion]

All excellent points, and I agree.
However, I don't believe people believe in god to explain the creation of the universe (if such a thing even happened in the first place), what happens after you die, etc.
It's simply because they have been indoctrinated to believe. I don't think many theists have come to believe through a rational process.

Well, yes, but these are the reasons why they continue to believe. Remember, the Bible begins with the story of creation...I'd say it plays a pretty important role in their faith.

Also, explaining the creation of the universe is likely among the reasons religion was created.

 

[Enmos]

Well, yes, but these are the reasons why they continue to believe. Remember, the Bible begins with the story of creation...I'd say it plays a pretty important role in their faith.

Also, explaining the creation of the universe is likely among the reasons religion was created.

Sure, but my question was why religion persists

 

[Simon Anders]

No, but you made that assertion, no one else did.

Actually someone else did and perhaps it seemed you were joining their discussion.