Is the god of Christ the god of Jews?

[S.A.M.]

S. A. M. At the time of Christ & prior to his birth, the god of the Jews expected temple worship & blood sacrifices. Considering Sodom & Gomorrah, the flood, and the trials of Job, the god of the Jews was a fierce deity. That god was the god of a male chauvinist society.

The god of modern Jews is mellower.

Christ always seemed to me to be a reformer of the existing Jewish faith rather than aspiring to be the initiator of a new religion, suggesting that his god was more like the god of the Old Testament Jews rather than the god of the modern Jews.

BTW: Modern Christian theology seems to be the invention of Paul & other early Christians, rather than being the theology preached by Christ.

How do you know the Torah was not re-written after Antiochus destroyed the Jewish books?

And how did the Jews mellow out their God?

Oooo, looks like you got a secret admirer S.A.M.

I think admirer might be a misnomer. Whats the antonym for that word?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

That seems odd. Surely with so many Jewish communities, you should get kosher everywhere?

You can get kosher-style food in many places. Matzoh ball soup, gefilte fish, knishes, lox and bagels, challah bread, etc. That's just the cuisine of the Jewish community. But Orthodox people insist on genuine kosher food, which was already described earlier. That's not so easy to come by because absolutely no one else has any reason to order it. Kosher-style food tastes the same and in fact may be literally identical in substance but lacking the ritual.

I can get Indian food anywhere for instance, or at least find someone to get it for me. Even in the middle of Saudi Arabia!

There are about seventy times as many Indians on this planet as Jews, so naturally there are a lot more Indian restaurants. Indian food is also far more popular among non-Indians than kosher-style food is among Gentiles.

And I doubt very much that you can find a Jewish-style restaurant in the middle of Saudi Arabia.

Christ always seemed to me to be a reformer of the existing Jewish faith rather than aspiring to be the initiator of a new religion. . . .

Yes. To accept for the sake of argument the doubtful hypothesis that Jesus was real, his flock was the Jewish community, not the Romans or any other Goyim. He was a rabbi in the strict sense of the word: a teacher. He wanted the Jews to break with their old traditions. It's ironic that the one ethnic group in which Jesus's teachings have not been widely accepted is the Jews.

. . . . suggesting that his god was more like the god of the Old Testament Jews rather than the god of the modern Jews.

Yeah, but Jesus's point was that his/their god had turned over a new leaf. God wanted to see less punishment and more forgiveness in the world, starting, admirably, with himself.

Modern Christian theology seems to be the invention of Paul & other early Christians, rather than being the theology preached by Christ.

Many non-Christian scholars of religion suggest that what is known as Christianity should really be called "Paulism." They say that of all the Apostles, Paul strays farthest from Jesus's message. He was, after all, a complete wack job. Didn't he get knocked off his horse by a bolt of lightning or something? Today if that happened to somebody he'd be required to undergo a psychiatric examination before being allowed to occupy a position of authority.

And how did the Jews mellow out their God?

Conservative and especially Reform Jews just don't fixate on the pillar-of-salt stuff. I think they tacitly assume that their god went to an anger management class just as Jesus (allegedly) tried to explain to them in the lessons that were (allegedly) collected in the New Testament. They aren't as concerned with the Covenant, as shown by their much greater willingness to intermarry, acculturate, ignore the rituals, and tolerate secularism in their community, all of which blur the definition of just exactly who is a Jew and therefore responsible for keeping the Covenant. And they do not feel as strongly about the modern State of Israel being the carrying-out of a biblical injunction.

I guess the point is that the most modern Jews, the Reform and to a lesser extent the Conservative congregations, actually did get Jesus's message. Perhaps it's the same way with the Christians. It's the more liberal ones who seem to have gotten the message of Love and Peace that was delivered by the First Hippie. They're the ones who were in the forefront of the civil rights and antiwar movement back in my day--right out there with the Reform and completely secular Jews.

 

[iceaura]

How do you know the Torah was not re-written after Antiochus destroyed the Jewish books?

Why would you think Antiochus succeeded in destroying all the Jewish books?

Besides, IIRC Muslims accept the Torah as Allah's word given to Moses - the genuineness of it is a tenet of Islam, no?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Besides, IIRC Muslims accept the Torah as Allah's word given to Moses - the genuineness of it is a tenet of Islam, no?

So do Christians. It is after all the first five books of the Bible, all of which is the literal word of God. There was a famous professor of Hebrew (long before the digital age so forgive me if I can't easily Google his name) who introduced his class with the statement, "Gentlemen, this is the language that God spoke."

 

[S.A.M.]

Why would you think Antiochus succeeded in destroying all the Jewish books?

Besides, IIRC Muslims accept the Torah as Allah's word given to Moses - the genuineness of it is a tenet of Islam, no?

Muslims believe in the Gospels and the Taurat as revelations to Prophets [along with a belief that there have been several other such prophets and revelations through time]. However, they are aware that the Gospels of Christ are lost and the Torah has been interpreted in the Talmud. ie when Jews talk about the Torah, they actually talk about rabbinical interpretations of the Torah and not the verses of the Torah itself.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Regarding the question posed in the OP, perhaps God comes to us in the guise we are prepared to accept. At the time of the old testament, we were savages and would not have accepted the love and peace message of Christ. Even more important, a people devoted to that sort of philosophy would probably have been wiped out by their more ruthless neighbors. By the time of Christ, we were ready for a more peaceful, love thy neighbor message. Especially once we had Rome backing us up.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, can't get more peaceful than the Romans.

 

[madanthonywayne]

Yeah, can't get more peaceful than the Romans.

I do seem to recall something called the Pax Romanus.

 

[S.A.M.]

Is that like the War on Terror?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

. . . . when Jews talk about the Torah, they actually talk about rabbinical interpretations of the Torah and not the verses of the Torah itself.

I think you're overgeneralizing from a small sample of Jews. Especially in a place like America, there are a lot of people who consider themselves members of a Jewish congretation who have read the Torah--or even the entire Old Testament--in English, but have not studied the Talmud.

I do seem to recall something called the Pax Romanus.

It's Pax Romana. Peace is feminine.

Is that like the War on Terror?

Pax Romana is a name given by modern historians, not by the Romans, to the first two centuries of the Common Era. It was indeed a relatively peaceful Roman Empire, both within its borders and without. There was a major lull in expansion of those borders through conquest, as the expansionist generals had been recalled by the emperors. Since there were still occasional rebellions of occupied populations that "had to" be put down, it could be argued that the Pax Romana was experienced more completely by foreigners than by Roman subjects.

There were a couple of exceptions; the conquest of Britannia occurred during this period.

The concept and the name Pax Romana really caught on. Based on that model, subsequent historians have coined Pax Americana, Pax Assyriaca, Pax Britannica, Pax Europeana, Pax Germanica, Pax Hispanica, Pax Minoica, Pax Mongolica, Pax Ottomana, Pax Sinica, and Pax Syriana.