Is Satan actually God wearing a mask?

S

sevenblu

feeling blu
Registered Senior Member
Since our notions of good and evil are different from and infinitly inferior to God's, is is possible that evil was created by God so as to spark good results. God's will is present in all things, and He is everywhere (including Hell), and with divine foresight He knows the result of all things...

After all, God did create Satan, and if He is omniscient, then He had to know the result of such a creation. Also, He did give Satan the Earth so as to lure man from His divinity.

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Satan, in effect, is God's tool, like a pruning hook or a hoe that he uses to cultivate his garden. The hoe takes pleasure in destroying the weeds for its own purpose, but cannot work without the hand of God or weed where He does not wish, or thwart His purpose of building a beautiful garden.

In this sense, Satan is God: the Devil could not exist if God did not create him; the Devil would not be evil if God had not willed him to be so; the Devil could not work evil if God did not all him to do so...

Since God turns Satan's every effort to the good, God does good not in spite of the Devil, but in and through the Devil, and God is Himself present in the devil (as he is present in all His creation).
 
That´s a very common theory. There is no good without evil and vice versa.
It is, like all other theories a likely possibility.

Somehow reminds me of Goethe´s Dr Faust. :)
 
That is presuming God is 'good' and Satan is 'evil'. God is not good and God is not evil. All other variations of the statement are heresy. Period.
 
§outh§tar said:
That is presuming God is 'good' and Satan is 'evil'. God is not good and God is not evil. All other variations of the statement are heresy. Period.
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This is presuming god exists in order to be good, evil, or neutral in the first place. ;)
 
sargentlard said:
This is presuming god exists in order to be good, evil, or neutral in the first place. ;)
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God is neither good, evil, or neutral "in the first place". That would be placing an infinite being into a category which is paradoxical. ;)
 
Perhaps there are more than one gods?

But in this case, if god created everything, like religion said he did. He is bound to have created evil. If he created it in form of Satan or if he himself is evil is of no consequence. It may be possible that god has in himself good and evil like we humans have. After all, in a biblical sense, we were created like him.

After all, god (the christian one) annihilated whole cities because he was displeased with their behaviour. Doesn´t this make god evil?

But I really like this theme. I suppose no one ever read the aforementioned "Faust" written by Goethe? In this theatre play, Goethe shows this dualism.
Mephisto always works evil, but god tolerates him, for without evil, god could do no good things.
 
In Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut, the same idea is addressed with the satirical religion Bokonism.

Bokonon was the prophet and this other guy was the oppressive leader. The oppressive leader pushed more people to Bokonon, and the further Bokonon was squleched, the further it grew.

God sort of needs a devil, or the devil needs god?
 
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It would seem so, without a devil, god´s deeds would not be good, therefore they would perhaps not be seen as very extraordinary. Also it gives the followers of a religion a certain motivation to do good. It also is more convenient for a religion to sport a god and a devil, otherwise the people would perhaps not pray to a god who creates and destroys out of a whim. They can always put the blame on the negative player.
 
I've always found the idea of God to be oppressive. All the shit that happens is His fault, ultimately. It'd be idiotically pointless not to agree with that. He's infinitely everything, so he should be able to stop all the crap that goes on, like floods and death and famine and hate and the like, but He doesn't.
If you have the power to stop something, and don't, it's your fault, is it not?
 
Supposedly, as some religios guys claim, god bestowed freedom upon mankind. Of course that makes everything that happens between us humans his fault. But he gave us a choice. How we employ our freedom is thus our problem, and god is not neccessraily blamed for this. Alas, there is always the aspect of an "evil" nature, catastrophes and all that, which cannot altogether be blamed upon mankind. This is where in some religions an evil counterpart comes in. In others, it is just the way things are.

I would not presume to know how some things are justified by people who have faith and beliefs.
I have the same sentiments that you have Roman, that´s why I am not a religios man.
 
I'm curious for an explanation for those who were not exposed to, and do not have, the proper Christian behaviour.

For instance, the Aztecs. Since they behaved in a way contrary to Jesus, but were not given a Jesus (unless you're Mormon and believe there were chariots in the New World before Europeans brought horses), how does God judge them? He cannot judge based on either faith nor works.

What about people who are born without morality, like serial killers? Are they automatically sentenced to eternal damnation at the moment of conception?
 
That would be interesting, I also suffered under a christian upbringing, until I was old enough to think for myself and see all the faults in christian beliefs.
There are non christians (perhaps non Islamic would also be good because of some parallels) on this board, I hope they respond.
 
Dreamwalker said:
Perhaps there are more than one gods?

But in this case, if god created everything, like religion said he did. He is bound to have created evil. If he created it in form of Satan or if he himself is evil is of no consequence. It may be possible that god has in himself good and evil like we humans have. After all, in a biblical sense, we were created like him.

After all, god (the christian one) annihilated whole cities because he was displeased with their behaviour. Doesn´t this make god evil?

But I really like this theme. I suppose no one ever read the aforementioned "Faust" written by Goethe? In this theatre play, Goethe shows this dualism.
Mephisto always works evil, but god tolerates him, for without evil, god could do no good things.
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God is justified in whatever He accomplishes/wills.

Remember, one man's meat is another man's poison. But they both give thanks to God for it.
 
Dreamwalker said:
That would be interesting, I also suffered under a christian upbringing, until I was old enough to think for myself and see all the faults in christian beliefs.
There are non christians (perhaps non Islamic would also be good because of some parallels) on this board, I hope they respond.
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Were you brought up in heresy? Find strength in God!
 
Roman said:
I'm curious for an explanation for those who were not exposed to, and do not have, the proper Christian behaviour.

For instance, the Aztecs. Since they behaved in a way contrary to Jesus, but were not given a Jesus (unless you're Mormon and believe there were chariots in the New World before Europeans brought horses), how does God judge them? He cannot judge based on either faith nor works.

What about people who are born without morality, like serial killers? Are they automatically sentenced to eternal damnation at the moment of conception?
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Everyone is "automatically sentenced to eternal damnation at the moment of conception", at least according to Calvinists and a majority of proteststants. Accepting the Lamb of God as Lord and Savior is what saves you from Hell fire.
 
Right. Here's my question: the Aztecs never got any Lamb of Savor, they didn't even have mutton! Were they saved? Well, appearantly not.
God must be quite the dick to condemn people to Hell fire just because they got born in the wrong place. Please equivocate yourself out of this.
 
Roman said:
Right. Here's my question: the Aztecs never got any Lamb of Savor, they didn't even have mutton! Were they saved? Well, appearantly not.
God must be quite the dick to condemn people to Hell fire just because they got born in the wrong place. Please equivocate yourself out of this.
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to quote myself since you didnt see it:
God is justified in whatever He accomplishes/wills.
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Since you wish for me to "equivocate" :rolleyes: myself, here goes:

Romans 2

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.



Am I equivocated now?
 
I'm not passing judement on anyone Southstar, I'm curious to how God passes judgement, and the following quote explains how God passes judement.

"[1] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
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Now, by using the reasoning faculties that God has bestowed upon his race of men (that his Churches discourage), I can reason that if you cut virgin's hearts out and devour them, then flay their body and wear their skin, you ain't goin where the angels fly. I wouldn't call this bit of reasoning passing judgement.

However, the question, which is still unanswered, did the bloodthirst Aztecs go to Hell? They behaved wickedly by God's standards, but they did not know Jesus or the "proper" way to behave. Nor did they know of God, so they could not believe in him.

So unless human sacrifice is under God's law (which he does ordain in the book of Joshua, I believe), the gentile Aztecs are in a lake of fire and fry.
 
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