Is Religious Indoctrination Criminal?

given that we are not discussing this in a strict legal sense, where do these "rights" come from? what are "rights" outside of the legal definition?

Yes ...

However - As they sometimes say in some therapies:

You have the right not to be affected by another person's negative emotions.
You have the right not to be affected by another person's attempts to affect you.
You have the right to take responsibility for your education, spiritual or otherwise.


One of our teachers at school would tell us:
You have the right to do your homework.

Kind of puts things into a different perspective, doesn't it?
 
Huh? How does the OP title claim indoctrination is criminal? .....Never mind.
You ask whether religious indoctrination is criminal and then go to lengths to explain how religious organizations indoctrinate.

Kind of like asking whether all negros are evil and then providing a couple of paragraphs explaining the nature of their black skin.

:shrug:
 
imo
Religious indoctrination is not and will never be criminal because you have a choice as to whether you subscribe to that indoctrination or not..if you do not believe as they do then you can quit or go find another church that believes the same way as you do..

same as vocationaly, you don't like the rules,go find another job...

any attempt to vilify religion seems to ignore the fact that you have a choice as to believe the same way they do..or not..they only try to convince you of their position,they cannot force you to believe as they do..

unlike the anti-religious views that try to take any choice away from you by attempting to make belief in god illegal..(dramatic reference intended)

any arguement about indoctrinating kids ignore the fact that alot of ppl that are anti-god, were themselves kids who were taught that way and have since turned away from their teachings for one reason or another..

(btw IMO 99% of ppl who got 'turned off' god are ex-catholics(tells me catholics ain't got a clue))
 
If we are going to create a law to punish indoctrination.
And assume that telling children something is true which cannot be verified via the scientific method,
then we handicap parents, by EVERYONE'S standard.

Morals for example cannot be verified by science.
Many political, social, psychological, interpersonal ideas cannot be verified by science.

They have now determined that there is a strong link between long term cellphone use and brain tumors, especially when the user begins young. So any of you who have given your children a cell phone are child abusers.

How about telling your kids fast food is OK?
 
Originally Posted by PsychoticEpisode
In this thread I'm looking for people's thoughts on the matter. I'm trying to remain neutral but my reputation precedes me. So I will admit that I tend to favor the rights of individuals to include non interference from religion. That's as far as I'll go right now.
Could you please demonstrate, with appropriate scientific research, that 'rights' exist.

As far as I can tell you are referring to a hallucinated 'thing'.

What are these rights made of?

If you teach children about these non-physical objects, do you think this is indoctrination and should be considered a criminal act?
 
imo
Religious indoctrination is not and will never be criminal because you have a choice as to whether you subscribe to that indoctrination or not..

What children have a choice to openly not subscribe to their parents religion? Children simply parrot their parents and churches beliefs.

if you do not believe as they do then you can quit or go find another church that believes the same way as you do..

But, you have already been indoctrinated to believe in a god, what good will it do to believe in another god? The idea is to break the indoctrination altogether, which means not believing in any gods.

any arguement about indoctrinating kids ignore the fact that alot of ppl that are anti-god, were themselves kids who were taught that way and have since turned away from their teachings for one reason or another..

Yeah, the reason is they started thinking. Be careful not to let yourself fall into the same trap or you too might start thinking.

(btw IMO 99% of ppl who got 'turned off' god are ex-catholics(tells me catholics ain't got a clue))

Catholics don't have a clue? Look in the mirror, pal. You haven't a clue, either.
 
Could you please demonstrate, with appropriate scientific research, that 'rights' exist.

As far as I can tell you are referring to a hallucinated 'thing'.

What are these rights made of?

If you teach children about these non-physical objects, do you think this is indoctrination and should be considered a criminal act?

i'll repost this in the hope that it not be overlooked--as i asked it in #34, signal reiterated the query in #41, and it continues to be ignored.

ignoring a question doesn't make it go away.
 
Could you please demonstrate, with appropriate scientific research, that 'rights' exist.

As far as I can tell you are referring to a hallucinated 'thing'.

What are these rights made of?

If you teach children about these non-physical objects, do you think this is indoctrination and should be considered a criminal act?

Scientific research? I personally find this whole childish attempt of yours to paint me into a corner kind of amateurish.

If you really need an answer Doreen then rights are a figment of my imagination and they're made of macaroni.

As i said earlier, I am merely posing a question. Usually when I ask a question it`s because I don`t know the answer. Maybe there isn`t one. You`ve stated your opinion and that`s great. At no time have I indicated that indoctrination is or isn`t a crime. I will keep my opinion to myself in order to make the thread move both ways and prevent a one-sided attack. You don`t have to answer this thread nor do you have to bait me.

Teaching children about non-physical objects. Is that what indoctrination means to you? Are you talking about things like shadows or temperature?

I`m being very careful in this thread to not choose a side yet people keep choosing one for me...very odd.
 
PsychoticEpisode, I found a way to corner you, listen! Come on, tell us, what type of crime you would say for religion? I mean, as you may appreciate, crime is a very general name, some of them are serious, some of them are not so serious. An example, according to law, it is crime to steal a loaf of bread; and it is also crime to commit murder. One step ahead, slavery is also a crime. We know that any law would be useless if you do not categorize the weight of any crime. For instance, you can not give same punishment for every crime; you can not punish someone with genocide penalties, if this person committed one murder, or steal a loaf of bread. Otherwise it wouldn't be a legitimised justice. It would be madness. "

My question is, assuming that religion is a type of crime (I'm not discussing this point, I agree), I would like to learn what is the degree of this crime? Is it "against humanity" type, or is it "throwing eggs to your neighbour" type of crime? Or any other category you would tell us...
 
My question is, assuming that religion is a type of crime (I'm not discussing this point, I agree), I would like to learn what is the degree of this crime? Is it "against humanity" type, or is it "throwing eggs to your neighbour" type of crime? Or any other category you would tell us...

Nice try. I think society has done a fairly good job determining the degree of a crime. Not an easy job.
 
Nice try. I think society has done a fairly good job determining the degree of a crime. Not an easy job.

No, you can not do that to me, if you are offering it as "crime", something must be on your mind. Forget about this "society has done fart job" thing; you and I both know that not society, but certain professionals, "learned people", politicians and lawyers determine "the degree of a crime". That's why it's "not an easy job", since they have to reshape or convince or manifacture the consent of "society"...
You can not be serious if you are saying that you come up with the idea itself (crime), moreover, you mentioned the possibility of its classification as crime through sketching this:

Teaching children about non-physical objects. Is that what indoctrination means to you? Are you talking about things like shadows or temperature?

,yet you don't have an idea... No, I don't get it.

OK, what type of crime is that "teaching children about non-physical objects"... Stealing a loaf of bread type, or a "crime against humanity" such as racism, or slavery? Or did you just come up with this "religion as a crime" idea to entertain our fantasy futuristic world? We know that any crime associates with certain type of aim, conditions of criminal, and many other terms. You are not saying "something to blame", "something unethical"; you say crime, you must have at least an opinion about what type of crime?
 
You have to understand that the thread is provocative in a number of ways: 1) only religious indoctrination, not other kinds 2) that religious people should be considered criminals as just two examples.

Scientific research? I personally find this whole childish attempt of yours to paint me into a corner kind of amateurish.
This has no content.

If you really need an answer Doreen then rights are a figment of my imagination and they're made of macaroni.
If you realize this, fine.

As i said earlier, I am merely posing a question.
I quoted a statment, not a question. If you assert something, it can be challenged.

Usually when I ask a question it`s because I don`t know the answer. Maybe there isn`t one. You`ve stated your opinion and that`s great. At no time have I indicated that indoctrination is or isn`t a crime. I will keep my opinion to myself in order to make the thread move both ways and prevent a one-sided attack. You don`t have to answer this thread nor do you have to bait me.
I am aware that I am free to respond or not. There is nothing I have said that would indicate I feel compelled to respond. I responded to a statement you made. I pointed out that you were using as term as if that term referred to something real. Of course it is rational to question, in a thread on indoctrination, whether this thing you are referring to exists and if it does not, raise the issue of whether it would fall into an anti-indoctrination law.

This is a rather commen and useful type of reasoning: testing the consistency of a position.

Teaching children about non-physical objects. Is that what indoctrination means to you? Are you talking about things like shadows or temperature?
I do not think you understand how scientists use the word physical. Check out the thread on whether a non-physical thing can exist and you will see the atheists fall down very hard on the position: "NO".

I`m being very careful in this thread to not choose a side yet people keep choosing one for me...very odd.
I did not make up what I quoted.
 
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You have to understand that the thread is provocative in a number of ways: 1) only religious indoctrination, not other kinds 2) that religious people should be considered criminals as just two examples.

You can consider any indoctrination you want. I for the purposes of creating a thread focused on religion. I don't see the problem. You could have answered the thread title with a simple 'no'.

Are you suggesting that Religion be given special status and anything questioning be subject to censorship?
 
You can consider any indoctrination you want. I for the purposes of creating a thread focused on religion. I don't see the problem. You could have answered the thread title with a simple 'no'.

Are you suggesting that Religion be given special status and anything questioning be subject to censorship?

No. I would have said that. And 2 the question is insulting. Have I made some attempt to censor you, reported your thread for locking or something like that?

I was pointing out what seemed an apparant naivte in the conception of the thread. Can you address the issue?
Would you consider other kinds of indoctrination in such a law or do you think only religious indoctrination should be illegal?
How would the law distinguish indoctrination from normal parenting?

Perhaps you have responded somewhere to the issues raised, which would all be important if such a law were to come to pass, but I havent seen it.

I did, by the way, answer the thread with a simple NO. Though it turned out the OP was poorly worded. 'Is there a crime committed....' No, is the correct answer, generally in the West, since it is not a crime, per se, to try to convince someone of religious beliefs. Then it turns out you meant - Should it be considered a crime, and it seemed you thought it should be a crime from some of your comments.

You seem to think you have not expressed a position, but you have.

Once there is a position that religious indoctrination should be considered a crime, of course it makes sense to question whether other forms of indoctrination, probably ones that you consider OK, should be on the table. Examples are political opinions and ethical training.

This was not a poll. You are implying that by raising the issues I am, I am doing something incorrect.

Is that what you really wanted? People to say Yes or No. Or did you want a discussion of the ideas connected to making religious indoctrination a crime? Let me assure you that if a legislature discussed this idea, they would have to deal with reasoning around what makes religious indoctrination unique. IOW they would have to show why other forms of indoctrination - which all parents engage in, for example, and pretty much any active political person, even the bar room lecturer, engages is, should not be covered by the law. Many beliefs out there are asserted without proof. Many would be impossible to support with evidence - ethical beliefs, for example, at least the axioms.
The same holds for a philosophical discussion of the issue. If the issue is
Should religious indoctrination be considered a crime
I cannot see anyway to avoid dealing with the broad issue.

If you shifted the OP to making other behavior illegal

being a sports fan
performing homosexual acts
espousing atheist positions
trying to convince others of political beliefs

you would find people who do this reacting defensively, pointing out ethical and practical problems with such a law, etc.

Yet, you seem surprised people don't simply answer NO or YES.
 
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You are implying that by raising the issues I am, I am doing something incorrect.

Are you implying that I'm implying?

Doreen, this is not difficult. Either you think religious indoctrination is criminal or it isn't.

Let's take it another step, is there a danger that religious indoctrination could lead to a criminal act being committed?
 
Is there a crime committed and what is the crime(s) when......

A person or persons of faith knowingly convert someone non-religious to their particular religion by any means possible.

Note: 'any means possible' includes anything from a loving perspective to a physical beating or worse. In each case, the person being converted either did not ask to be converted nor wish to be converted.

If someone is indoctrinated without expressing an original interest in the religion of faith of their converter then have they been violated?

*As an afterthought.....Is something similar to the Stockholm Syndrome at work in the minds of the indoctrinated?

We are not responsible for what people believe, although we do have an affect on it. It is your decision to believe something, you cannot be forced into it. You can be forced to lie about what you believe for fear of your life. Although, I suppose if you tell children the same thing over and over, it could be perceived as indoctrination.
 
Are you implying that I'm implying?

Doreen, this is not difficult. Either you think religious indoctrination is criminal or it isn't.

Let's take it another step, is there a danger that religious indoctrination could lead to a criminal act being committed?
Its not clear what crimes you suggest your average congregation is on the brink of being culpable of (except perhaps forsaking your ideology).
 
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Its not clear what crimes you suggest your average congregation is on the brink of being culpable of (except perhaps forsaking your ideology).

I'm suggesting a crime?

If indoctrination entices one member of a congregation to commit a crime, would the whole group or the one individual shoulder the blame?
 
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