Is Religion a Virus?

Zephyr said:
Obviously, if parents want to indoctrinate their children, you can't stop them. Many such parents would not want their children to learn critical thinking anyway.
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That's horrible child abuse.

Zephyr said:
I do think our choices make a difference. But people seldom choose to go against the inertia of entrenched ideas. How often does a smoker say that they could quit, but don't want to? They have as much free will as anyone, but only use it to perpetuate the status quo.
http://www.slate.com/id/2203614/?GT1=38001
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Not often but some do say that.
How is that perpetuating the status quo?
1111
 
Simon Anders said:
But in general critical thinking is not simply avoided but discouraged if not outright punished. The role of the student is to upload truths about the world.
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Complete nonsense. What school would punish critical thinking? That's just downright ridiculous if you think we're going to swallow that, Simon.

Parents teach their children via indoctrination all sorts of things: how to relate to people, what is true and what is not true, what the role of men is in society, what the role of women are, political beliefs, racial attitudes, class attitudes, the importance of money, and indirectly all sorts of philosophical ideas
many of which the parents may not even be aware they have.
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Perhaps, but are they taught to believe in those things on pain of eternal hellfire, or any of the other nasty things a vengeful god might do? Not likely, Simon. Not even close.

I could go on and on.
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Pointlessly, fallaciously...

Shall we talk about advertising and what it is, right now, directly and indirectly indoctrinating children about what is valuable, where their self-esteem is coming from, what will make them happy, what girls are, what boys are

and on and on.
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Go ahead, it isn't relative at all to indoctrination of religion.

Sure, they can. But I am talking about reality where theists and non-theists alike indoctrinate.
No difference at all. Indoctrination has to do with the form of education or really getting the ideas into those kids' brains, since that is how most adults, corporations, schools and media look at it. It is not about content.

If you cannot see that indoctrination is ubiquitous in society, you are not paying attention.
It is a human phenomenon and it is ubiquitous.
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As a theist, I'm not at all surprised you would relate indoctrination in such a way, the other indoctrinated theists do exactly the same thing, as they themselves have been indoctrinated, hence assume everything they're taught is indoctrination. They simply don't know the difference. Same as you, evidently.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yes, I have noticed this too. Atheists are generally rude and condescending, even the nicer ones [Thank God I am not a thiest! Thats child abuse!].
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Muslims are evil and smell bad. See how stupid you are, Sam, for not knowing the difference?

The Europeans are racist societies. Banning the scarf, mocking cartoons etc are not a sign of being nice or secular. Their "freely chosen" athiesm is an oppressive burden on the rest of us.
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Muslims are murderers. Blowing themselves up, stoning women and apostates. Their indoctrinated theism is an oppressive burden on the world.

:rolleyes:
 
(Q) said:
Complete nonsense. What school would punish critical thinking? That's just downright ridiculous if you think we're going to swallow that, Simon.
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This was not an argument. You merely said 'I disagree' in a more aggressive form.

Have you ever taught in public schools? I have.
And I spent the required years going to them, including what was supposed to be the best public school high school - iow was a feeding platform for ivy league schools - in a large east coast city in the US. Schools are not there to teach children critical thinking. They are there to fill children's heads with certain facts, and to give them certain kinds of problem solving tools. Critical thinking challenges some of those 'facts'. Critical thinking will slow down and derail the required curriculum for that week. Critical thinking will bring into question the philosophies of the teachers, perhaps ever their authority.

If you keep your critical thinking in the very restricted areas it is OK - how do we determine the weight % of barium in this solution. OK. Fine. But a generalized critical thinking approach by students will be nipped in the bud. I watched it happen all around me.

In fact I was discouraged from giving the time I did to just that kind of process. (and no, it had nothing to do with religious ideas and yes, I believe in evolution. I mean this should tell me something. I expect assumptions because I meet groundless assumptions in you,)

Let alone the issue of creativity.

Perhaps, but are they taught to believe in those things on pain of eternal hellfire, or any of the other nasty things a vengeful god might do? Not likely, Simon. Not even close.
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Speaking of critical thinking, what error are you making in the 'example' above.

I hate the kind of indoctrination you are talking about, but you are not noticing how effective the other forms of indoctrination are.
Go ahead, it isn't relative at all to indoctrination of religion.
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Again. A statement that you disagree. Not an argument.


As a theist, I'm not at all surprised you would relate indoctrination in such a way, the other indoctrinated theists do exactly the same thing, as they themselves have been indoctrinated, hence assume everything they're taught is indoctrination. They simply don't know the difference. Same as you, evidently.
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Again, critical thinking question for you Q.

Which fallacy is the above quote an example of?

I edited my post because I realized that your aggressive and fallacious approach to arguing sets me off
and I actually respond AS IF you are making a case.

take care.
 
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Simon Anders said:
Have you ever taught in public schools? I have.
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:rolleyes: Uh-huh, sure. Would that would be the place where you "discouraged if not outright punished" critical thinking?

I edited my post because I realized that your aggressive and fallacious approach to arguing sets me off
and I actually respond AS IF you are making a case.

take care.
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Poor Simon. Was someone twisting your arm or did you just forget to put on your "Big Girl Panties" this morning?
 
(Q) said:
Complete nonsense. What school would punish critical thinking? That's just downright ridiculous if you think we're going to swallow that, Simon.
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Not nonsense. You may think you know some schools that are different. I definitely know schools that fit that. I have all my life, included the 1s I attended. From reading much about schools all over the US, I have good reason to think the vast majority are like that.
When I was in school I was punished for critical thinking & asking too many questions they didn't want to answer.
1111
 
(Q) said:
:rolleyes: Uh-huh, sure. Would that would be the place where you "discouraged if not outright punished" critical thinking?
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Emoticon.
Implicit but unstated argument that would have a fallacy if written out. Assumption implied as fact.
Poor Simon. Was someone twisting your arm or did you just forget to put on your "Big Girl Panties" this morning?
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Insult.

Perhaps we mean different things by critical thinking.
 
StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
Not nonsense. You may think you know some schools that are different. I definitely know schools that fit that. I have all my life, included the 1s I attended. From reading much about schools all over the US, I have good reason to think the vast majority are like that.
When I was in school I was punished for critical thinking & asking too many questions they didn't want to answer.
1111
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thank you, not that you wrote this for me.
 
laladopi said:
its definitely not a virus, unless you consider table manners a virus as well?
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Most "Proper Etiquette" is ridiculous but as with many things we're discussing, 1 reason it continues is it's passed on & accepted without thinking. People think it's proper mostly because they were taught it's proper.
1111
 
A note on schooling-How many schools has anyone been to where they were graded on giving the desired answer, not necessarily the correct one.
 
S.A.M. said:
Yes, I have noticed this too. Atheists are generally rude and condescending, even the nicer ones [Thank God I am not a thiest! Thats child abuse!].
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*************
M*W: Just how many atheists do you know? I can't imagine an atheist wanting to know you.
 
John99 said:
were all born with faith and hope. born free as free as the wind blooooowssss.
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*************
M*W: The mere fact that babies cry proves they don't have faith or hope. The fear of abandonment is the strongest innate fear. Otherwise, they wouldn't need to cry.

Unfortunately, many babies are not born free.
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
A note on schooling-How many schools has anyone been to where they were graded on giving the desired answer, not necessarily the correct one.
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It was a rare teacher who could make such a distinction. I used to defend wrong answers on multiple choices tests, just for the challenge. Sometimes other answers were just as correct. One teacher welcomed the ensuing discussion. The others shut it down like a can of coke with a wasp in it.

I can remember one very long discussion where one of my friends challenged the saintlike status of one of our forefathers. The teacher's head looked like a pre-explosion pimple and that was enough to shut my friend up. Thing was, he really did not understand the status. He wasn't being annoying. He was trying to learn about something that confused him.

I can remember one social studies teacher who actually tried to teach us critical thinking, which of course means active conversation and a loss of control on the teacher's part in terms of content. He would present divergent descriptions of past events and ask us in groups to 1) decide which we believed 2) determine why 3) determine what information might help us make a better decision

and so on.

Problem Based Learning. Actual thinking. Actual respect for the little humans and their opinions and interests - he even let us choose articles and issues sometimes.

Not remotely radical. Not Postman and Weingartner Teaching for a Subversive Society. Not Summerhill. Obviously not deschooling, may Ivan Illich rest in peace. Not Freire learner centered education building from significant events from the learner's perspectives.

Nevertheless, just that minor shift to seeing our brains and NOT

tabula rasa (whatever the latin plural of this should be)

was wonderful.

The rest....

get the sentences in their brains, keep them in line, stay on the day's content, sit still, never learn by doing

deadness.

Dewey has rolled over in his grave so many times there must be a wormhole in Chicago or Vermont or whereever he was buried.
 
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