Is Religion a Virus?

[Simon Anders]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism

Sure. But it is not just religious ideas that are jammed into children's heads. Think about advertising and all the messages that come indirectly through that. All the things children learn from adults about how to relate to others, how to live, what is real, what is not......Indoctrination is ALL OVER THE PLACE.

 

[OilIsMastery]

Metaphysics is clearly not a "virus" and anyone who says so is ignorant of history and science.

World renowned physicist Freeman Dyson on Atheodogmatism and Atheofascism in the sciences: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/09/29/freeman_dyson/

What do you think of what Richard Dawkins is doing.

I think Richard Dawkins is doing a lot of damage. I disagree very strongly with the way he's going about it. I don't deny his right to be an atheist, but I think he does a great deal of harm when he publicly says that in order to be a scientist, you have to be an atheist. That simply turns young people away from science. He's convinced a lot of young people not to be scientists because they don't want to be atheists. I'm strongly against him on that question. It's simply not true what he's saying, and it's not only not true but also harmful. The fact is that many of my friends are much more religious than I am and are first-rate scientists. There's absolutely nothing that stops you from being both.

Dawkins calls religion as a virus.

I disagree totally. He has the arrogance to say that anyone who does not share his views is infected with a virus. No wonder he cannot coexist peacefully with them.

Dawkins says anyone smarter than him (e.g. Da Vinci, Copernicus, Bacon, Galileo, Kepler, Descartes, Pascal, Huygens, Lavoisier, Halley, Newton, Lord Kelvin, Pasteur, Maxwell, and Heisenberg) is infected with a virus...

I don't know why Dawkins wants to be the Pope of Atheism, give up science, and start preaching. Keith Ward at Oxford University thinks he knows why (implying they share the same orientation) and I suspect he's probably correct.

Dawkins was never really cut out for science to begin with.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

I have to say that your IP training sounds like another virus - you know, get the 'right' ideas in their brains.

The "right"? ideas about critical thinking processes?

Sure. But it is not just religious ideas that are jammed into children's heads. Think about advertising and all the messages that come indirectly through that. All the things children learn from adults about how to relate to others, how to live, what is real, what is not......Indoctrination is ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Teaching critical thinking would help with all that too.
1111

 

[Zephyr]

Sure. But it is not just religious ideas that are jammed into children's heads. Think about advertising and all the messages that come indirectly through that. All the things children learn from adults about how to relate to others, how to live, what is real, what is not......Indoctrination is ALL OVER THE PLACE.

Of course, all ideas like to be spread. Religion is just one kind of idea. Ideologies like communism, and capitalism encourage followers to spread them too. Languages that do not get passed on to children die out. Just like genes, memes are forever competing.

 

[swarm]

Memetic accounts of religion

Memetics regards religion itself as memetic, and Richard Dawkins has often discussed religion.[28]

Evangelistic religious movements act to swell the reach of their faith-meme.[29] Judaism, Christianity and, Islam have all developed through variation, modification and memetic re-combination from a shared monotheistic meme: Zoroastrianism appears to have functioned as an important and widely-shared religious ancestor,[30] contributing through Judaism to Christianity, Islam and their many derivative religions.[31] Some of these movements devote a large amount of time and energy to evangelistic activity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

 

[lightgigantic]

Memetic accounts of religion

Memetics regards religion itself as memetic, and Richard Dawkins has often discussed religion.[28]

Evangelistic religious movements act to swell the reach of their faith-meme.[29] Judaism, Christianity and, Islam have all developed through variation, modification and memetic re-combination from a shared monotheistic meme: Zoroastrianism appears to have functioned as an important and widely-shared religious ancestor,[30] contributing through Judaism to Christianity, Islam and their many derivative religions.[31] Some of these movements devote a large amount of time and energy to evangelistic activity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

even more horrid is the memetics of memes
uke:

 

[Zephyr]

even more horrid is the memetics of memes

Do you mean the meme of memetics? Why do you hate it?

 

[geeser]

That is the part that children get indoctrinated with. That's not religion that's doing it... it's the parents infecting their children with the Meme.

Ah! so the children get infected by the parents with the religious Meme, they in turn become adults and infect there children with the same Meme. Certainly sounds like a Virus to me.
And all because their ancient fore bearers contracted the religious Meme/Virus, via some other means, wow that is some virulent strain, don't you think.
A Plague of the religious Meme, luckily there seems to be a slow working cure, if only we could speed it up, we could save a lot of lives in the process.

 

[Michael]

Is Religion a Virus?

It infects the mind of the Adult, then the Adult infects the Child.

It's a type of meme.

As to the question: Are people born atheist? That's a good question. On the surface one would suggest yes, but, our propensity for typeII error makes me think maybe, maybe, not. We may be hard wired towards being religious-minded. Much like we are hardwired to speak a language or to love or hate or empathize.

I think in the coming years we'll be able to look at the DNA of a person and be able to tell if they are likely to have a heart attack or what cancers they are likely to have or even if they will be zealously religious.



That said, I wonder this: Are Scientologists religious? What of the Raelian Movement? Seem like it to me. Alienology taps into the same hardwiring.
Now, what about Amway? They also seem to tap into this same sort of religiousness ... to me anyway.

So, is religion a virus? No, not a real one. But "virus" could be a decent metaphor on some levels. But, I think type of meme is a better description.

Michael

 

[Simon Anders]

The "right"? ideas about critical thinking processes?

For example: parents tend to bring up ideas around critical thinking when children express interest in or ideas related to beliefs the parents disagree with. This pattern will be picked up unconsciously if not consciously.

 

[Simon Anders]

Of course, all ideas like to be spread. Religion is just one kind of idea. Ideologies like communism, and capitalism encourage followers to spread them too. Languages that do not get passed on to children die out. Just like genes, memes are forever competing.

Then it seems to me people, including parents, should work on themselves, and not be so fast to 'teach' others. One, this role models. Two, one can reduce the amount one proselytizes. It is not as if parents are somehow neutral and children start being irrational. Parents, teachers, media, etc. are actively jamming ideas into children's brains. Not just formally and openly - where critical thinking training can be of some use - but indirectly in a wide varíety of ways.

What age are we talking about here? Critical thinking courses for three years old? They have already been bombarded by their parents' worldviews and media worldviews and most of this 'training' is not something critical thinking training can prevent. And, of course, only rudimentary CI training could take place with children so young.

 

[Simon Anders]

even more horrid is the memetics of memes
uke:

Excellent point.

On the surface it can seem like a neat metaphor - this meme idea - but it carries with it messages about what we are that may or may not be true and have rather pernicious effects.

 

[Simon Anders]

Of course, all ideas like to be spread. Religion is just one kind of idea. Ideologies like communism, and capitalism encourage followers to spread them too. Languages that do not get passed on to children die out. Just like genes, memes are forever competing.

And so really, we should not think of this thread as yours,
it is really the meme's using you for its own reproduction.

How could you possibly be objective about it?

 

[Balerion]

Religion is not a virus. It's not even a cute metaphor. It is, by all evidence, a perfectly natural and common occurrence in humans. It seems to be, again by all evidence, the result of a lack of knowledge of some natural process or another. A lot of early religions put great significance on the solstices. The sun was the centerpiece of many religions, as well, and it has been worshiped in religions to this very day.

Ever notice how many old religions had multiple gods, almost one for every major aspect of life and the planet? This was probably their way of explaining how things happened, or how things came to be.

There are many, many negatives to the Abrahamic religions, such as the inherent belief that their faith is so righteous that they should either convert or kill all those who believe otherwise, or their inability to view science as anything other than a rival religion (you can see this in practice right here on this forum), but that does not make it a virus.

Our descendants will likely deal with less religious zealotry in the future. At least in the sense that we deal with it. I'm sure there will be new questions raised as we learn more about this universe, and as usual, there will be those who give these new mysteries divine solutions. But religion will never die. The Abrahamic religions will likely one day be taught as mythologies, the same way we teach Greek and Roman religions as mythologies today, but there will be some other faith to take it's place.

 

[S.A.M.]

And I'm sure that atheism is a phase that comes and goes, unlike religion, which is here to stay.

 

[Balerion]

And I'm sure that atheism is a phase that comes and goes, unlike religion, which is here to stay.

I doubt it. There's absolutely no way of knowing just how many people actually believed in the popular religion of their time, or just paid it lip service. I tend to believe that atheism has always been around, it's just more socially acceptable to admit you are today.

 

[(Q)]

Sure. But it is not just religious ideas that are jammed into children's heads. Think about advertising and all the messages that come indirectly through that. All the things children learn from adults about how to relate to others, how to live, what is real, what is not......Indoctrination is ALL OVER THE PLACE.

That is a fallacious statement and one often abused by theists.

Indoctrination is the teaching to accept doctrines, UNCRITICALLY. The key word here is 'uncritically' which is often misunderstood and misconstrued by theists.

Children can be taught how to live and what is real by way of evidence, critical analysis and explanation, often with valid and credible examples.

The teaching of religious doctrine, if questioned critically, would not be so readily accepted especially when those doctrines crumble under critical and logical analysis. There is no evidence or valid and credible explanations or examples, whatsoever.

BIG difference, Simon.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Ah! so the children get infected by the parents with the religious Meme, they in turn become adults and infect there children with the same Meme. Certainly sounds like a Virus to me.
And all because their ancient fore bearers contracted the religious Meme/Virus, via some other means, wow that is some virulent strain, don't you think.
A Plague of the religious Meme, luckily there seems to be a slow working cure, if only we could speed it up, we could save a lot of lives in the process.

I mostly agree. The meme isn't religion itself... in fact religion is more of a natural social phenomena than anything. The meme, or mroe correctly memes, are the supernatural claims that most religious texts make.

 

[Simon Anders]

That is a fallacious statement and one often abused by theists.

Indoctrination is the teaching to accept doctrines, UNCRITICALLY. The key word here is 'uncritically' which is often misunderstood and misconstrued by theists.

Not at all misunderstood by me. I went to secular public schools and was taught a lot of malarchy. Just the version of US history I was taught was hysterical. If these ideas were challenged, even respectfully by students, the reactions of the teachers were not pretty and certainly not encouraging of critical thinking. In fact critical thinking is generally absent in schools. Small focus problem solving is encouraged - how to pass tests, and certain problem solving skills in math and science. But in general critical thinking is not simply avoided but discouraged if not outright punished. The role of the student is to upload truths about the world.

Parents teach their children via indoctrination all sorts of things: how to relate to people, what is true and what is not true, what the role of men is in society, what the role of women are, political beliefs, racial attitudes, class attitudes, the importance of money, and indirectly all sorts of philosophical ideas
many of which the parents may not even be aware they have.

I could go on and on.

Shall we talk about advertising and what it is, right now, directly and indirectly indoctrinating children about what is valuable, where their self-esteem is coming from, what will make them happy, what girls are, what boys are

and on and on.

Children can be taught how to live and what is real by way of evidence, critical analysis and explanation, often with valid and credible examples.

Sure, they can. But I am talking about reality where theists and non-theists alike indoctrinate.

The teaching of religious doctrine, if questioned critically, would not be so readily accepted especially when those doctrines crumble under critical and logical analysis. There is no evidence or valid and credible explanations or examples, whatsoever.

BIG difference, Simon.

No difference at all. Indoctrination has to do with the form of education or really getting the ideas into those kids' brains, since that is how most adults, corporations, schools and media look at it. It is not about content.

If you cannot see that indoctrination is ubiquitous in society, you are not paying attention.
It is a human phenomenon and it is ubiquitous.

 

[Zephyr]

Then it seems to me people, including parents, should work on themselves, and not be so fast to 'teach' others. One, this role models. Two, one can reduce the amount one proselytizes. It is not as if parents are somehow neutral and children start being irrational. Parents, teachers, media, etc. are actively jamming ideas into children's brains. Not just formally and openly - where critical thinking training can be of some use - but indirectly in a wide varíety of ways.

What age are we talking about here? Critical thinking courses for three years old? They have already been bombarded by their parents' worldviews and media worldviews and most of this 'training' is not something critical thinking training can prevent. And, of course, only rudimentary CI training could take place with children so young.

Obviously, if parents want to indoctrinate their children, you can't stop them. Many such parents would not want their children to learn critical thinking anyway.

And so really, we should not think of this thread as yours,
it is really the meme's using you for its own reproduction.

How could you possibly be objective about it?

I didn't start this thread, but I agree that nobody can be completely objective. What makes you, you? Would you be the same person if you had been raised by different parents in a different country with a different religion and culture?

I do think our choices make a difference. But people seldom choose to go against the inertia of entrenched ideas. How often does a smoker say that they could quit, but don't want to? They have as much free will as anyone, but only use it to perpetuate the status quo.

And I'm sure that atheism is a phase that comes and goes, unlike religion, which is here to stay.

http://www.slate.com/id/2203614/?GT1=38001