Is prostitution a vice?
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
I don't really get how prostitution is a vice. I don't have a problem with it, seeing as laws should prevent victimization and I doubt the illegality of prostitution has persuaded all that many people to not do it. Would I encourage anyone I'm close to to be a prostitute? No of course not it's a dangerous job (especially street walking). But I also wouldn't encourage anyone to be a police officer or enlist in the armed forces either, it doesn't mean that I consider those professions vices. I would just be worried for their safety.
Make going to a prostitute illegal, but not being one. Pimping also should be illegal.
Prostitutes, at least in the West, tend to have been sexually abused, many are on drugs, many are poor.
If you hit the johns you get at prostitution. If you arrest, judge, look down on, harrass, think of as sinners, jail, etc....
the prostitutes
it does not touch the problem.
Hitting people when they are down usually doesn't.
Prostitutes, at least in the West, tend to have been sexually abused, many are on drugs, many are poor.
If you hit the johns you get at prostitution. If you arrest, judge, look down on, harrass, think of as sinners, jail, etc....
the prostitutes
it does not touch the problem.
Hitting people when they are down usually doesn't.
John, there are many times when I wonder how closely you're paying attention to the course of the discussion. To recap; you brought up the idea that a 'real' relationship had to be exclusive; I countered that swingers and polyamorous people don't see things that way. You then implied that such people were off and I pointed out what you had implied, complete with a
no, you brought up sex surrogates and THEN you brought up the other stuff later. i dont think those circumstances are relevant to the op though.
You're missing the part where you brought up the idea that a "real" relationship had to be the exclusive type, thus leading to my countering that swingers and polyamorous people didn't see it that way.
There has been discussion in this very forum about the benefits of having sex surrogates. It seems that a sex surrogate is simply a hooker that's licensed as a therapist (alright, someone who engages in sex to help others, but they get paid like hookers; I have a feeling that many hookers wouldn't mind being called sex surrogates if it'd get rid of them being stigmatized). I definitely believe that sex surrogacy can help some people out. And believe it or not, not all prostitutes think that their jobs are the lowest of the low, especially where in the upper end of it or where it's legal to do so.
wise acre said:
I've certainly heard of some pimps being bad news; but since prostitution is illegal, the only people generally willing to protect them (and yes, at times, abuse them) are generally not so respectable types. From the little that I've heard of it, this doesn't hold true in one of the only places where it's legal in the U.S.; that is, the outskirts of Las Vegas, with places such as the Moonlight Bunny Ranch.
I'm with you there Cutsie; I think that where it's legal, this problem is lessened; as you may have guessed, I think it should be legalized in general, not just in a few places.
My first reaction was, yeah, I can see that. Then a second reaction is...how uncreative if you have to actually have sex with someone to help them with sex.
They are making money off of them, addicting them to drugs, 'motivating' them, breaking them in and so on. I am sure some form partner relationships, but those guys can get some other line of work. Like office manager or at Burger King. What, they deserve more money cause they have some control over a woman's body?
I saw a documentary on that place. The owner tried out his 'employees' and it gave me the creeps. Definitely these woman had it better than a lot of women. They could conceivably retire after a few years, etc.
But look on one 'worker's' face when she came out of a room after servicing a rather gross guy and his wife.....
made me sick.
I mean, I have worked shit jobs, but people only got their dicks in my orifices figuratively.
When I went home a shower and a bunch of grumbling got them off me.
Uncreative as compared to what? I'm not saying that it should be sex only. From what I understand, a more 'normal' therapist treats a patient and, if they find that they need some sexual therapy, they get that too. Obviously, it would be swell if everyone managed to get into great sexual relationships without the need for therapy of any kind, but we don't live in an ideal world.
I think you missed my main thrust here; the people who are more respectable generally do have other jobs, or no job at all if they can't stand the thought of working at Burger King (I've never even applied myself). What I'm saying is that because it's illegal to essentially be paid from the profits of prostitution, the only people who are interested are generally not the best types around. If it were legal, prostitutes could hire normal bodyguards, which generally have a much better reputation.
wise acre said:
Why is that?
wise acre said:
There you go. So do you agree that prostitution should be legalized in general?
wise acre said:
Broader legalization won't cure all problems. Honestly, I think it would be swell if everyone had enough to eat regardless of whether or not they had money. But that's not the way the world works. Given this fact, you can either find a job you can live with, go on social assistance, go into the shelter system (I'm currently on the former and have been in the latter) or die of malnourishment and/or the elements. Sometimes it's some combination of the above.
wise acre said:
Some people have more trouble with doing dishes or flipping the toxic stuff we call fast food then selling sex as a service. Different strokes for different folks. One day, I believe we'll get beyond this unpleasantness, but I'm not going to make any predictions as to when.
I've worked terrible jobs and while I've never been physically raped. I think emotional and psychological scars run just as deep as physical scars do.
Pandaemoni
Valued Senior Member
It depends entirely on how its practiced. Ritual prostitution and religious prostitution were common in the ancient world and seemed to be socially beneficial. Further, traditions like the geisha and orran in Japan and hetaera in ancient Greece were far removed from similar practices under the heavy and oppressive hand of the Abrahamic religions.
Western modern prostitution is very much bound up in the exploitation and control of women and clearly has negative side effects. Even where it is legal, like certain counties in Nevada, the women who do it often seem to have issues (self-esteem issues, prior abuse, personality disorders, drug use and the like, though there are also cases there where there are no such issues).
Transitioning it from the modern, problem riddled, version to something healthier may not be possible. Given that there is still a almost Victorian-style view of sexuality that pervades the culture on a certain level, prostitutes will be viewed as "low class" likely for a long time. Once we have worked that out it should be possible to set up a genuinely being form of prostitution, but it is not clear to me how we work such a thing out of our culture.
I suspect it would take a significant purging of traditional Christian (and other Abrahamic) influences from our culture, which is not likely in the any foreseeable time frame.
Western modern prostitution is very much bound up in the exploitation and control of women and clearly has negative side effects. Even where it is legal, like certain counties in Nevada, the women who do it often seem to have issues (self-esteem issues, prior abuse, personality disorders, drug use and the like, though there are also cases there where there are no such issues).
Transitioning it from the modern, problem riddled, version to something healthier may not be possible. Given that there is still a almost Victorian-style view of sexuality that pervades the culture on a certain level, prostitutes will be viewed as "low class" likely for a long time. Once we have worked that out it should be possible to set up a genuinely being form of prostitution, but it is not clear to me how we work such a thing out of our culture.
I suspect it would take a significant purging of traditional Christian (and other Abrahamic) influences from our culture, which is not likely in the any foreseeable time frame.
Cutting out a bit, I think this is what you're saying concerning the future of prostitution in (it seems) the U.S.:
"Transitioning it from the modern, problem riddled, version to something healthier may not be possible... for a long time."
I can go for that. Societies don't change overnight.
Did you mean benign form of prostitution?
Purging sounds a bit drastic; I think all that's necessary is that the younger generations take a look society's values and modify them to make it better, which I believe they do quite consistently. As an example; people may argue that pollution has never been worse, for instance, but that's more the fault of past destructive policies then the policy trends of today. You mention 'almost victorian-style'; I certainly agree that there are many aspects of our society's fear of sexuality that are best exemplified in how we wish to protect minors from it; at times, that protection can actually do more harm than good. The generation that is currently minors will grow up, however, and they will modify the laws so that protections that do more harm than good are changed.
Some laws may be introduced as well, regarding sexual coercion, or insults made against people who had nude photos posted online, say; more on the effects of such insults to a certain young woman here: Alarm bells ring over 'sexting'.
*************
M*W: I say it is a vice, because it stems from a basic human need. How one goes about fulfilling that need can be a public nuisance. Also, let's not forget about the addictive behavior that can be attached to prostitution, gambling, drinking alcohol, using drugs, etc..
M*W: I say it is a vice, because it stems from a basic human need. How one goes about fulfilling that need can be a public nuisance. Also, let's not forget about the addictive behavior that can be attached to prostitution, gambling, drinking alcohol, using drugs, etc..
So does eating. So does sex with someone you love. So does being social. So does giving birth. are these vices?
and eating and posting on the internet and, well, almost anything.
Imagine that the worst boss you had got to have sex with you anally and tell me that wouldn't have been much worse. I mean I don't want to diminish what we both have gone through. But sexual contact ups the ante. Some asshole customer can dump a lot of figurative shit on me and I can feel terrible. And if it is regular, it can damage my body and heart. But if these customers could point at me, take me to a room and fuck me - pardon my language but I feel it is appropriate - and say horrible things to me, for example, while doing it....
that's a qualitative difference.
I thank God I haven't had to do that for money.
I think prostitution is a gross thing indeed.
Prostitutes often have drug addictions or cash addictions.
It's one of those problem causing solutions that people come up with to get their way in life.
It is harmful, S.T.D.s get spread.
I think it can be handled by talk and then working through issues so the person meets someone who they care about who they can work through sexual issues with. The surrogate sex profession seems like a shortcut or a farce to me - iow really prostitution in the latter case. I am sure some people have been helped and I am sure some men have been helped by prostitutes, probably many. Still.....
I agree. I still think it is an unnecessary short cut. It bypasses a lot of issues and the professional is taking too much responsibility away from their client. Work on the issues around why the person cannot meet caring partners.
Sure, that thrust I can go along with.
How could they say no? and he gave me the creeps.
Nope. I would focus on the johns. Make being a customer illegal and hit the johns hard. That would change things fast. It would not eliminate prostitution, but it would sure cut down on it.
Also the reason that place gets to charge so much money is because there are so few legal places to have brothels. If it was legal everywhere, the women would not be bringing home those kinds of salaries.
No one should have to fuck their boss. And it would be impossible to stop it.
If that money was not being spent on prostitutes it would be spent somewhere else and some other business would make money. Also your argument here could be used to support any job, period, even things you and i both think of as evil.
Because they have been sexually abused. I think it ok if we do not let them act that out. Not because we try to stop them, but as a side effect of getting the pimps and customers.
Me neither. And to be honest I am overstating my case for the side opposite yours. I have mixed feelings and thoughts. But right now, today (and yesterday) it seemed best to write what I wrote. I see no neat solution and no 'see I told you so' in the near future, whatever happens.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
"Vice" is a value judgment that is institutionalized by a society through its government. It has no objective definition. A frightening number of Americans think that being gay is a "vice."
That's the fundamental premise of libertarianism: Consenting adults must have the right to do anything they want, so long as it causes no direct harm to others. Indirect harm can be adjudicated by the courts. It's an imperfect system but not as bad as the alternative.
Not many people set prostitution as their career goal. In fact most would find clever ways to cut their expenses and then track down people to mooch off of serially before they'd turn to prostitution. If someone in my family were so destitute that prostitution was their only realistic option to avoid hardship of Third World proportions, I'd wonder what I had done wrong to let them get to that point.
That said, the world is full of one-percenters (one out of every 100 of us, to be exact.
) who don't have the same values and ambitions as the rest of us. Some women take up prostitution because they find it less degrading than the kind of office work many of us do. Those who work in the legal brothels in Nevada get good pay and generous benefits and many of them use the time and money to put themselves through college so they can come out and run the office we work in. If I knew someone--even a family member--who was making that decision rationally, I'd be hard-pressed to argue against it.There are very few people on this planet who are doing exactly what they wanted to do when they grew up. We all "sell ourselves" every day; the phrase is a well-worn cliche because it's true. Selling your mind, your body, your spirit, which is worse?
I assure you that if I had a child I would much rather he or she take up prostitution than myriad other occupations, such as a soldier, a sailor on a whaling vessel, or an Abrahamist religious leader.
These are all due to the fact that it is illegal. The same is true of illict drugs. We've proven to ourselves more than once that the second-order effects of prohibition invariably cause more social problems than the product or activity we're prohibiting, yet we keep doing it over and over.
Prostitution is legal in Nevada. (except in the two counties that contain the major population centers of Reno and Las Vegas but it's not a long drive to the county line.) Nevada has virtually none of those second-order effects. In fact the last time I saw the statistics there had not ever been a single case of HIV infection in a Nevada hooker.
So does alcohol, in case you haven't noticed! So does every other prohibited product or activity. You can buy drugs in prison and a beloved football hero was found to be the leader of a dog-fighting ring.
Since it's a largely arbitrary moral judgment, that would be a big Yes.
If he weren't expecting it, then it touches upon other issues such as honesty. There are a whole lot of things I would not want to find someone doing in my home. If they do those things elsewhere and are honest with me about them, then I can decide whether they're still welcome guests. I allow Abrahamists in my home so long as they don't become militant and irrational. I allow gun enthusiasts so long as they leave their guns outside. I even allow people who don't like dogs so long as they return my dogs' civility with civility. I certainly would have no problem with a prostitute as a guest but I would expect her to refrain from plying her trade in my home without having to explicitly tell her so.
If it's a family member rather than a guest, I think I covered that at length earlier in this post.
You've asked the same question several times, I guess that means you're not getting enough answers. I have answered it. It's not my first choice, but if they were forced into it by circumstances, or if they just happened to be several sigmas from normal and considered it a rational choice, then it's their decision. As I said, there are far worse things to be than a prostitute.
Indeed. Nevada is a beacon of sanity (and sanitation
) and there are several European countries who find the regulatory model to be quite satisfactory.
Tuba lessons.
There have always been women who compared their lives as wives unfavorably to the life of a prostitute.
Once again, these are all second-order effects of prohibition. They are not the consequences of prostitution itself. Take a trip to the rural counties of Nevada and find out for yourself.
And have you compared those statistics to the general population? There are a lot of screwed-up people walking around, of both sexes.
But can we get started anyway?
You all buy the goddamned government's lies. They want us to think that it's prostitution (or the drugs or the homosexuality) that causes these effects, when in fact it's the prohibition. My parents lived during America's experiment with alcohol prohibition and thought we'd learned our lesson.
This is really depressing. I expect the SciForums membership to be somewhat better informed and more skeptical than the average population. But you all sound like government stooges, parroting the party line.
All? :bugeye:
Anyway, I think most of what you wrote was pretty good
In terms of the 'purge' term, I hesitate with that one, because it's been used to institute draconian measures; but I certainly believe that change would be good.
in response to...
I'm afraid your response here does not make any sense to me. I was not asserting those were consequences of prostitution, but that they were factors that led to women choosing that line of work. The point of my post was to say 'let's not throw prostitutes in jail, let's throw johns in jail.'
I also can't see how sexual abuse and poverty are effects of prohibition. But perhaps you mean that if it was legal what I asserted would not be the case.
What is it I will find out in Nevada, that the prostitutes there are not more likely to have been poor or sexually abused before they became prostitutes?
I'd like to see some research to back that up.
And also, no thanks, to going there to see for myself. And I am not sure how one sees such things.
This, below, however, was totally unnecessary and an ad hominem.
You have no idea on what basis I formed my opinions.
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