Is Muslim terrorism due to defects in the faith?

spidergoat said:
Thanks for agreeing with me! That's the exact point I was trying to make.

You were trying to make the point that Islamic extremism is like Jewish extremism? Maybe it's like Christian extremism too?

Anyway, good thing to have helped you with that. Wouldn't want the discussion to get too focused on the wrong idea, now would we?
 
Correct! I propose that, indirectly, all such terrorists are motivated by extreme stress involving a lowering of their status by the religious enemy. Some American men take their general low-status stress out on their wives or children. Others focus it on "society" and get into a fight with the police. To do that, they kill as many people as possible---the more they "take out" the more they feel revenged and their status restored (through media notariety). And they expect to go out "in style"---that is, to be shot down by the police (as was Jesus' supposed fate!) or to kill themselves. This is our American type terrorism.

I could tell that Islamic people felt a subtle surge of "prestige" from 9/11 (I lived in Indonesia at the time). We as the most powerful nation couldn't let that prevail so we went to war. Men here were furious at the "insult" of 9/11 while women were afraid for their children. We would have assaulted our own president if we hadn't invaded Afghanistan as people began returning to church (!).

The more we involve ourselves in Islam, the longer their subtle but deep resentment over our persistant support for Israel will continue even increase. We can keep killing off their leaders, but the size of the rank and file keeps growing. It is not something Muslims can easily forget. We don't forget such things either and are determined to keep 9/11 in mind.

brough
http://civilization-overview.com


We had the same problem with LTTE terrorists who killed the Prime Minister of India for politically interfering in their country. After Rajiv Gandhi was assassinated by a suicide bomber [note that we did not spend years and trillions blaming their religion or lack thereof and invading their country and bankrupting ourselves] India washed its hands off military interference in Sri Lanka's ethnic problems and left them to resolve it themselves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam

Terrorism is essentially a tool for political change and the change is enforced by instilling terror especially when the two sides are not matched in power.
 
You were trying to make the point that Islamic extremism is like Jewish extremism? Maybe it's like Christian extremism too?

Anyway, good thing to have helped you with that. Wouldn't want the discussion to get too focused on the wrong idea, now would we?

Faith is the issue. There are subtle differences in the religions due to history and culture, but it's all the same mistake. Once you start down the road of believing in things without evidence, there is no limit to the madness.
 
Faith is the issue. There are subtle differences in the religions due to history and culture, but it's all the same mistake. Once you start down the road of believing in things without evidence, there is no limit to the madness.

Does this sound like believing things without evidence?

More than three years after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the US, Bin laden released a videotape in which he staked out his ultimate goal; to bankrupt America.

"We are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy, Allah willing. And nothing is too great for Allah," bin Laden said.

The al Qaeda leader said his goal was to do to the US what had previously been done to the Soviet Union; slowly bleed it to death in a long, intractable military conflict in Afghanistan.

Though the Afghans were outgunned and out-spent by the Soviets, they used "guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers," bin Laden said.

This same strategy, which bin Laden referred to as the "bleed-until-bankruptcy plan," was being utilized to ultimately defeat the mighty US, he said.

At the time of the video's release, in November 2004, the US national debt was more than $7 trillion and the federal deficit was $413 billion.

"Every dollar of al Qaeda defeated a million dollars, by the permission of Allah, besides the loss of a huge number of jobs," said bin Laden. "As for the economic deficit, it has reached record astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars."

For all this expense, bin Laden said, America would "suffer human, economic and political losses without their achieving anything of note, other than some benefits for their private corporations."

Even bin Laden knew about the influence of America's Military-Industrial Complex. He was well aware of its political connections and power.

Driving the US further into debt showed "that al Qaeda has gained. But on the other hand it shows that the Bush administration has also gained, something that anyone who looks at the size of the contracts acquired by the shady Bush administration-linked mega-corporations, like Halliburton and its kind, will be convinced.

"And it all shows that the real loser is you," he said. "It is the American people and their economy."

The cagey al Qaeda leader displayed a keen foresight that now seems rather remarkable.

Of President Bush, Bin Laden said, "the darkness of black gold blurred his vision and insight, and he gave priority to private interests over the public interests of America.

"So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future," bin Laden said.

In the end, he was right.

Simultaneous engagement in two wars — Afghanistan and Iraq — has saddled the US with enormous debts. But that onerous debt burden only became crippling when, for the first time in US history, the government cut taxes as it went to war.

http://independentreport.blogspot.com/2011/05/osama-bin-ladens-ultimate-goal-bankrupt.html

Seems more like strategic warfare to me.
 
Does this sound like believing things without evidence?



Seems more like strategic warfare to me.

Seems like a non-sequitur, as usual. I never suggested that everything a Muslim happens to think is a matter of faith.
 
Seems like a non-sequitur, as usual. I never suggested that everything a Muslim happens to think is a matter of faith.

Ah so you're saying that there is evidence of long term evidence based strategic warfare insterspersed with faith based road to madness? So what do you think of bin Laden's economic strategy against the Soviet Union and against the United States. Was his faith misplaced? How would an atheist have planned to bankrupt the US?
 
Ah so you're saying that there is evidence of long term evidence based strategic warfare insterspersed with faith based road to madness? So what do you think of bin Laden's economic strategy against the Soviet Union and against the United States. Was his faith misplaced? How would an atheist have planned to bankrupt the US?

The faith matter in all this is that God is on the side of Muslims here and that together they are working against the US.

It is difficult to start a big project (such a smaller, weaker country attempting to defeat a bigger, stronger one) without the conviction that the Supreme is on one's side.
 
@charles --

They have managed to compromise both Christian doctrine and Secular science in order to reach this inherently contradictory belief. They support the mainline churches and go to them Sunday mornings once in a while. While there, I see the church parking lot far from full.

Yes but at least they've stopped killing people who believe differently, that was a big thing in christianity for a good long while there.

The Southern Baptists, Evangelicals and Evangelicals have full parking lots. They are the ones who like to believe they take "the word of God" literally . . .

And yet we know that their overall numbers are declining, just as the RCC is experiencing a drop in believers world wide.
 
The faith matter in all this is that God is on the side of Muslims here and that together they are working against the US.

It is difficult to start a big project (such a smaller, weaker country attempting to defeat a bigger, stronger one) without the conviction that the Supreme is on one's side.

But that is true for all sides. Whether it is a supreme being or a supremacist ideology, no one takes up a challenge without the conviction that they can win. If they lose that conviction, then they retire to reservations or broken up satellite states and drink themselves to death

In Muslims we have a saying, Himmat e mardaan, Madad e Khuda. Probably from the Persian, since they call God "Khuda". What is means is if a man has courage, he is supported by God [God helps those who help themselves] so the faith is not so much in God as in your own ability to succeed.

But persevering against the odds, with the conviction that you can win, is not something unique to Muslims or even something you see in all Muslims.
 
In Muslims we have a saying, Himmat e mardaan, Madad e Khuda. Probably from the Persian, since they call God "Khuda". What is means is if a man has courage, he is supported by God [God helps those who help themselves] so the faith is not so much in God as in your own ability to succeed.

Such a person is justifying their faith in themselves by presenting it as a matter of having God on their side.

"I am courageous and I do all kinds of things, therefore, God is on my side."

This is the madness.

The next step is "God told me to kill all those people in the bus, so I blew it up. I was just doing God's will."


But persevering against the odds, with the conviction that you can win, is not something unique to Muslims or even something you see in all Muslims.

Not everyone who tries to persevere against the odds does so with the conviction that they have God on their side.
Characteristically, Muslims do, and so did the Crusader Christians.
 
Such a person is justifying their faith in themselves by presenting it as a matter of having God on their side.

"I am courageous and I do all kinds of things, therefore, God is on my side."

This is the madness.

The next step is "God told me to kill all those people in the bus, so I blew it up. I was just doing God's will."




Not everyone who tries to persevere against the odds does so with the conviction that they have God on their side.
Characteristically, Muslims do, and so did the Crusader Christians.


I don't think it will be too long before Americans will not only be fighting the righteous convictions of Muslims 5000 miles away but also the convictions of the American people who have been bankrupted into a war where the casualties were their own children and the future of those children. Then, we will see if Muslim terrorism is due to defects in the faith, or due to the shortsightedness of the people who blamed them
 
Ah so you're saying that there is evidence of long term evidence based strategic warfare insterspersed with faith based road to madness? So what do you think of bin Laden's economic strategy against the Soviet Union and against the United States. Was his faith misplaced? How would an atheist have planned to bankrupt the US?

The faith part was in his desire to re-establish the Islamic caliphate. He didn't fight the Russians for religious reasons, except to come to the aid of fellow Muslims. And it was the USA who was able to bring it's resources to bear against the Russians. Bin Laden had no economic strategy against the Russians.

As far as his later efforts with Al Quida, he once stated that he attacked us because he knew we are weak and ineffective, and would lack the will to fight him directly. I think he made up this "strategy" after he was shocked at our response, which he did not expect. This is consistent with the fact that he had to flee Afghanistan in such a hurry.

If the heaven's gate cult happened to use their secular knowledge of drugs to kill themselves, that doesn't mean that their goal was any more rational. There are Muslims scientists, and I'm sure you are rational in your poop analysis.
 
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I do not consider it a defect to take bold action in order to protect oneself.
But I do consider it a defect to portray this bold action as being in the name of God.

Although upon second thought, why wouldn't people kill eachother in the name of God?
Why should strife in the name of God be off limits?

The only issue I can see with is when theists attack non-theists.
As long as theists of different denominations are engaging in combat with eachother, I think this is allright, as they are theistic equals.
But theists attacking non-theists - I think this is immoral. It like a modern army attacking a group of people who are armed with nothing but slings and stones.
 
Matthew 5:17-18: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The claimed to fulfill the law and when broke it and picked corn on the sabbath he also broke one of the ten commandments . So when he said Keep my commandments it was the same language that god used through Moses . For it says the same thing . God says Keep my commandments . Jesus says keep my commandments . Then Jesus is asked what commandments are you talking about . He starts listing the 10 and not the Jewish rituals of Leviticus.
So now we have a problem Huston . Jesus broke the 4th commandment . So could Jesus be the Christ if he broke the law ( one of the ten he told us to keep . Then you take what he said about dividing the family , pitting the son against the father and mother . Likewise the Daughter. Were does that fall in the grand scheme of Honoring your Father and Mother . Is Jesus the Christ ?

What is a Christ should be the first question . I propose the term Christ means a Leader worthy of following , but not by words but by deed . So many follow Jesus but to what end ? Sacrifice? I don't believe in sacrifice. Yet all our world systems of doing business are based on sacrifice. The child sacrifices there own freedom to go to school and become proficient to live in the system . Then they sacrifice there freedom to contribute to society as a whole by some mundane job. It is the system we live in . We live by sacrifice. Well not all of us . I am done sacrificing. I believe in a better way that many have come to know . Reward by achievement . To love what you do is a grand thing and the reward is much more satisfying . That all could come to this end would be an amazing thing , but would to many people just want to be professional shoppers and that is it? Or every body be Musicians and then no one left to weed the garden ? Skill sets have to come into play and most qualified as a factor . So what about all the people that have not the skill and never will have the skill . Busy work is that fate . Busy work as to keep them in a sacrifice roll of Jesus Ideology . All in the name of consumerism just to keep the wheels of economic laws in check . Sacrifice so we can keep a system propped up that ultimately bring the earth to unsustainable usage just in the name of moral judgment by perceptions that one is lazy for not playing the game of earth degradation. It is all fucked up . Work ethic is geared to sacrifice of the individual so we can continue to use up the planet for the continued production of busy work . Just so we can say people are not lazy and contribute to the better good when in fact that better good is an illusion of bull shit use up the planet cause we don't want to be considered lazy and not willing to sacrifice. It is bull shit system of sacrifice for what ? For earth destruction? For over usage . Even the Israelite knew you had to let the land rest in interval fashion . It is nothing new . Only in our modern times of high production and over usage . Well we are being forced into rest by recession. We go kicking and screaming as the economic system does not allow for slow down. It is fucked up and one of the main culprits is the Idea you got to sacrifice your life. It is bull shit and no one should have to sacrifice. Besides that the most efficient methods are sacrifice free. You don't think of playing as a sacrifice. If you love your job it is like playing all the time , Your achievement goes up dramatically just by the enthusiasm of getting to do something you love . I love it so I do it and the money don't mean a thing cause the satisfaction is in doing what I love to do
 
I've read some of the Quran

Just by the way it talks about women by saying "but take three, four, or more" and the original text saying "terrorize them" the terrorists are doing exactly what a Muslim is supposed to do.
 
Faith is the issue. There are subtle differences in the religions due to history and culture, but it's all the same mistake. Once you start down the road of believing in things without evidence, there is no limit to the madness.

Faith is the key. Have it or don't, makes no difference to me.
 
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