Is Joseph the father of Jesus ?

Far from our understanding, yes - but not far from His power. How can we give to God all the glory He deserves? Who can do it better than his Son?

He needs noone, he depends on noone, all depend on himself. Do you suggest that the male race is superior that god choose a male and not a female to be a god. Nonesense, god is not a male or a female and he wouldn't attribute a sex to himself, we are the ones that do that by our limited voculbly and preconcieved ideas. God is not a father or a mother. God is an Allah, a Jehova, an Elohim, a Rab. But such terms can not be translated in english because noone know what they means, the names of god.

God may glorify whom He wishes - and He chose to glorify Jesus with the same glory as Himself, by raising Him from death to sit by His right hand.

God may honor people, and we all are going to rise from the dead, so that is not special. what is the afterlife anyways, it's us rising from the dead, being judged, and going to hell or heaven.

God will never assume a human trait, and put people in his place as gods, sons of gods, daughters of gods, neices of gods, ect. Do you realize that a son grows up to be a father. So are you suggesting that Jesus will be taking the place of god? Because all sons grow up to be fathers and daughters to be mothers and neices to be aunts, ect....You are assigning god a royal family and placing division in placing loyality in your heart. Get it straight and worship your god only and put Jesus in his respectable place of being a great prophet of god. That is the way Jesus would like it.
 
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That is what God did for us, yes: in his love He humbled himself to become a mere mortal, subjected himself to death, and was raised because death had no hold on Him. Through Jesus, God adopted us and ensured our salvation. The Son did become the Father, and the Father became the Son. All with the same Spirit. To know one is to know the other. God is the one and only God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As you said, these are only terms we use to describe something we don't understand.
 
Jenyar, Jenyar,
Your constant reading of the English bible and christian upbringing, is preventing you from understanding the concept of one creator god properly in you head. Your envionment is the biggest obstacle, yet you are doing okay and your ideas is much better than other. The god I believe in my creator is mercifull and have compassion and is just, and he will not penalize you for something that you don't know or had no hand in like what religion you were born into and what part of the world you live.

So I guess, if you are true to yourself and doing your best, god will not penalize you. I just hope you are not lying to yourself by knitting a bunch of logic in your head to justify a bunch of english bible verses that by themselves wouldn't make sense,, but with man twisted logic, might mean something and appear to make sense. Remember, your worship is to your creator and the bible is a bunch of ancient stories that may give wisdom and may also drive you astray.
 
If I cannot trust centuries of accumulated wisdom and knowledge about God, then I can't trust my own efforts or experiences either - especially if they correlate with the testimonies of others. It is almost to say I cannot trust God.

Being true to myself is not enough. The sin I am fighting against is the same sin commited by Adam and Eve, and I cannot trust myself to resist the temptation. I am subjected to the same Law as they were, and judged by the same God. God is not penalizing me for sins I have not committed, but I remain guilty of sin per se. I am not being punished for their sin, but I am a product of it, and a carrier of its legacy.

God showed me His mercy and compassion all the more for it. If I was born innocent and managed to follow His laws perfectly until death - I would still have to give Him credit for my existence, but not for my salvation. I would not have reason to call Him merciful or compassionate, and His glory would be diminished through me.

No, in God's eyes we are all liars and we are born with no knowledge of Him.
 
No, in God's eyes we are all liars and we are born with no knowledge of Him.
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who's bad is that? last time i heard, he created us therefore with his "infinite" wisdom should've placed some kind of built in fail safe. he did not, does not, and probably never will show himself to humans and for us not to believe again because of this, who's fault is that.

why are we all liars? noone is born a lier. we are born with minds that are ready to develop and evolve over time thanks to a healty diet of protein which lets us think about such things. i would not call the bible knowledgable nor argue that it had any kind of wizdom. if you think about it, the wizdom you reach is the ideas you form from reading such stories. wizdom is not inherent in books or stories- it's a tool that lets us create our own wizdom. also, if god is not punishing you for your "sins?" why are you or any others going to be sent to hell? he is a mean guy if the bible describes him correctly. and, if man were created in his image, than we must share commonalities with him. eve was created second, for adam (thats what i glean form the story anyway- how is this true tho, women have more genes than we do, how is it the male came first then?), and if i am to believe adam and eve existed and did sin, that in no way reflects on me. it's what you'd call a sunk cost- it also can't have any repercutions later on because the sin was done unknowingly. yeah, i'm rambling but basically the moral of the story is i don't think the bible is any good.
 
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Scientificaly speaking singular conception can occur in extreamly rare circumstances "parthenogenisis". Still admitedly the feotus is rarely viable. The chances of that happening are astronimical, and producing a health living organism (i.e. human being) . . . well it makes the earlier odds look relatively likely. Still its possible I suppose. :)
 
atheroy,
I appreciate your comments. I did not mean to imply we are all born lying; I was trying to put our situation into perspective. It is Biblical (Rom 3:4... Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."[Ps.51:4])

In terms of who can judge, not one of us is in that position, only God is. We are all accused of sin. Some call 'the accuser' the devil. But I won't proclaim anything beyond what I know by faith, there is simply no other way of knowing; as you say, we learn from books, and knowledge becomes a different (but hopefully a similar) wisdom to each person. I am sharing mine with you, and you can decide for yourself.

What I'm saying is that God will judge over me, I will be tried according to my transgression of the Law (through sin) or my upholding of the Law (by faith and love). But God's plan is for salvation, and He has given me hope for salvation through Christ:
John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

During the first few weeks of an embryo's life, it is neither male nor female. Adam and Eve received the punishement for their own sin, but have lived a life of suffering as a result. Whoever they were - as their children and descendants, we have grown up in that same world of suffering and death. We might not carry their sin (although people denying God's authority commit the same sin), but we inherited the legacy of it, and in that sense share their punishment. It's not much different than a child being born with HIV because its mother was infected. The "cure" is the same for both mother and child: either life or death. But it is still a choice.

On the one hand it all depends on the realization that you are a sinner and will die, and trusting God to relieve you from it (what is called "repentance"). When you say "it in no way reflects on you" you are doing two things: denying that you were ever guilty, and denying that God will judge everybody.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
If I cannot trust centuries of accumulated wisdom and knowledge about God, then I can't trust my own efforts or experiences either - especially if they correlate with the testimonies of others. It is almost to say I cannot trust God.
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Oh boy, you and your understanding is the most important out of all the ancient wisdom and crap. The old stuff benefitted the old people, and you need to do what is right for you. How can not trusting a bunch of garbage that Jesus never read, proof read, or even recommended reading constitute not trusting god. The word bible is not even mentioned in the bible, isn't that a clue that this book is an unorganized compilation of history and is not intended for studying as a whole and is definetly not the word of god.? The Quran talks about the Quran as being a book of so many chapters that is given by god to guide humans, that it's the last book to be recieved by humanity, that it's a revelation from god unto a prophet, that it will never be corrupt in the future. That is all written in the book. The bible doesn't assure it's readers anywhere that it's true, that it is far from the hand of corruption, ect, ect..


Originally posted by Jenyar
Being true to myself is not enough. The sin I am fighting against is the same sin commited by Adam and Eve, and I cannot trust myself to resist the temptation. I am subjected to the same Law as they were, and judged by the same God. God is not penalizing me for sins I have not committed, but I remain guilty of sin per se. I am not being punished for their sin, but I am a product of it, and a carrier of its legacy.
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The sin commited by adam and eve was unique to adam and eve. Maybe Jenyar would have behaved different under the temptation. The original sin crap is just crap. Adam and Eve gave into temptation. Jesus, Abraham and Mohamed might have passed the test of tempation but adam didn't, still god forgave adam, but the moral of the story was since man may sin, man needs a test, and what a better place to do that but on our earth and by giving us a testing period. Try to forget the church teaching for a second and have some common sense toward this orignal sin issue, you'll get it very quickly that every man clean until they commit their sin. Sin is earned my Jenyar, it's not inherited.


Originally posted by Jenyar
God showed me His mercy and compassion all the more for it. If I was born innocent and managed to follow His laws perfectly until death - I would still have to give Him credit for my existence, but not for my salvation. I would not have reason to call Him merciful or compassionate, and His glory would be diminished through me.
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You are so harsh on yourself that you are even trying to be the judge instead of god. Just say, I'm an idiot god, I don't know, show me the way and forgive my sins.


Originally posted by Jenyar
No, in God's eyes we are all liars and we are born with no knowledge of Him.
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I see and now you can see thru god's eyes. Oh you previledged one.....What a bunch of bullshit.
 
Flores, Jesus did read Scripture, he frequently quoted from it (and so did his disciples) most notably the Prophets - a good indication that he believed in their validity and advised his disciples the same. Of course the word Bible isn't mentioned, it isn't a Hebrew word. They read "the Law and the Prophets". The Quran acknowledges both Jesus and the Bible. You might do well to familiarize yourself with it at least.

Personally I think different books by different authors all attesting to the same thing, holds more credibility than one book written by one man who got it from an angel - who may or may not have been from God. You trust an angel you have never seen, and I trust a man that many have seen. I'm not saying one is more valid than the other, but that's the way it is.

Each of us behaves the same to temptation: we either resist, or we give in. Wether sin is inherited or earned, the nature is the same and the result is the same. Surely you can see this: sin is sin no matter where it comes from, and we are all guilty at some point or another. I'm honest enough to admit that I do not always pass the test. This is no excuse, but there is forgiveness and hope.

Which is why I do say: "God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

Just like you, I can only see what my spiritual eyes show me, and they were opened through the Bible and the Spirit of God. How do you know God?
 
Yeah! I think parts of the Bible should be taken with a pinch of salt. However with conception being a chemical process, I think it is indeed possible.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Flores, Jesus did read Scripture, he frequently quoted from it (and so did his disciples) most notably the Prophets - a good indication that he believed in their validity and advised his disciples the same. Of course the word Bible isn't mentioned, it isn't a Hebrew word. They read "the Law and the Prophets". The Quran acknowledges both Jesus and the Bible. You might do well to familiarize yourself with it at least.
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Please provide to me verses from the bible where Jesus said that the most important part about faith is reading the bible. Did Jesus teach us in the bible methods of reading the bible correctly, like for example, did he ever say, whe the bible is read all must be silent and one must be clean. Anything on that level of detail from Jesus on the bible?

Originally posted by Jenyar
Personally I think different books by different authors all attesting to the same thing, holds more credibility than one book written by one man who got it from an angel - who may or may not have been from God. You trust an angel you have never seen, and I trust a man that many have seen. I'm not saying one is more valid than the other, but that's the way it is.
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First of all the different authors are not all attesting to the same thing in the bible, there are many contradictions, and these people all lived in the same era in the same town and knew each others, exept for the deciples who were documenting stories about blind men and such....In that case if they are saying the truth, then of course their story should match, and the Quran talks about the Enjil "Bible" as a revelation from god. On the Other hand, no where in history was there one man who was illiterate yet managed to write a huge book of guidance and wisdom that have many many chapters yet not a single contradiction. It is a miracle to compose such a beauty in arabic and the whole thing rythem perfectly so you can't put one word for another. That's the real miracle.


Originally posted by Jenyar
Each of us behaves the same to temptation: we either resist, or we give in. Wether sin is inherited or earned, the nature is the same and the result is the same. Surely you can see this: sin is sin no matter where it comes from, and we are all guilty at some point or another. I'm honest enough to admit that I do not always pass the test. This is no excuse, but there is forgiveness and hope.
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You got it we can resist or give in. Those of us that resist are better in the sight of god as mentioned in the Quran. Sin is not interited of course, it's earned. Because sin is an actual act. For a man to kill another, he can't say I inherited my sin, go hang my grandpa, the man chose to kill instead of forgiving or depending on god or the justice system to act for him.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Just like you, I can only see what my spiritual eyes show me, and they were opened through the Bible and the Spirit of God. How do you know God?
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I know god first by my instinct, by my reflection on my surrounding, by my seeing two little beautifull human beings come out of my body and grow before my very eyes, but me seeing myself grow old and knowing that I'll die. I read the Quran and it satisfies the questions my soul ask and it gives me answers and hope. I know god by praying to him and being amazed that praying to god is only good for me. I know god by fasting during his prescribed days and remembering others who are less fortunate and that he has given me a body that I should not ruin with glutony. I know god when I made a pelgrimage to the first built house of god and saw 10 million people around me all dressed in white simple cloth all worshiping the same god I do.
I also know god when I see evil, for I can see that god wrath is on it.
 
You got it we can resist or give in. Those of us that resist are better in the sight of god as mentioned in the Quran. Sin is not interited of course, it's earned. Because sin is an actual act. For a man to kill another, he can't say I inherited my sin, go hang my grandpa, the man chose to kill instead of forgiving or depending on god or the justice system to act for him.
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Very true Flores!! This reminds me of what I once read about sin: sinners often beleive God is a good 'man', and so beleive their sins we be forgiven. However if one has commited a crime on earth and is taken before a judge, in a court of Law, one canot say "Yes your Honour, I am guilty, but you are a good man so let me go"! :)
 
Originally posted by BillClintonsCigar
if one has commited a crime on earth and is taken before a judge, in a court of Law, one canot say "Yes your Honour, I am guilty, but you are a good man so let me go"! :)
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You really nailed it on the head, responsbility is a universal concept. You did the crime you do the time. The christians seem to believe thought that
"You do the crime and believe in Jesus and Jesus will do the time"
 
I don't think there is a worse penalty than death. Death was clearly the result of the sin of Adam and Eve (Sura 7:25). How do you explain that death remained on their descendants?

What Jesus preached was neither absolvement of the penalty nor the judgement, but salvation from eternal death.

Flores, how can you be sure of your salvation?
 
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Originally posted by Jenyar
I don't think there is a worse penalty than death. Death was clearly the result of the sin of Adam and Eve (Sura 7:25). How do you explain that death remained on their descendants?
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Death is not a penalty Jenyar, it's the end of this life, the end of the test. let me explain to you the concept of death for muslims.

Compiled From

http://www.pearls.org/questions.html)

Man has an intrinsic feeling of eternity; he feels imprisoned in the narrow confines of the material world and always yearns for eternity. Whoever hearkens to man’s conscious nature will hear it pronouncing eternity over and over again. If a man were given the whole universe, it would not compensate him for his ‘hunger’ for eternal life, for which he was created. This natural inclination of man toward eternal happiness comes from an objective reality, which is the existence of an eternal life and man’s desire for it.

For those who believe and do righteous deeds, death is not something to be feared. Although, in appearance, it is decomposition and seems to extinguish the light of life and to destroy pleasures, in fact, it is a discharge from the heavy duties of the worldly life. It is a changing of residence and transferring of the body, as well as an invitation to, and the beginning of, the everlasting life. As the world is continually enlivened through acts of creation and predetermination on the one hand, so, on the other, it is continually being stripped of life through other cycles of creation, determination and wisdom. The dying of plants, the simplest level of life, proves itself a work of Divine artistry, like their living, but more perfect and better designed. When the stone of a fruit, its seed, dies under the ground, it seems to decompose and rot away into the soil. But in fact it undergoes a perfect chemical process, passes through predetermined states of re-formation and ultimately grows again into an elaborate, new tree. That is, the death of a seed is the beginning of a new tree, a new, and more perfect and elaborate life.

Since the death of fruits and vegetables and animal flesh in the stomach of man causes them to rise to the degree of human life, their death in this sense can be regarded as more perfect than their lives. Since the dying of plants, which are the simplest level of life, is so perfect and serves so great a purpose, the dying of human beings, who are the highest level of life, must be much more perfect and serve a still greater purpose, for man having gone underground, will certainly be brought into an eternal life.

Death discharges man from the hardships of worldly life, which is a turbulent, suffocating, narrow dungeon of space and gradually becomes harder through old age and afflictions, and admits him into the infinitely wide circle of the mercy of the Eternal, Beloved One, where he may enjoy the everlasting company of his beloved ones and the consolation of a happy, eternal life.


Originally posted by Jenyar
What Jesus preached was neither absolvement of the penalty nor the judgement, but salvation from eternal death.
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Bill shit, Jesus would laugh at you, or better, he would cry for you lack of logic and understanding of the concept of faith and responsbility.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Flores, how can you be sure of your salvation?
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That's the whole point, I'm not and I shoudln't be. I try my best and it's up to god to decide whether I'm good enough or not. Usurally in our world here, when you study you pass the exam. When You take an exam, you don't know how you are scoring as you are taking it, you have a little hunch, but you are never sure. I think god judgement is similar, a believer knows that they are in the right tract but are never completely sure how god is scoring them.
 
Originally posted by doom

Joseph and mary fucked,joseph got mary pregnant,there wasnt easy ways out like morning after pills,condoms,abortion clinics etc
so she cooked up a story of immaculate conception.

Her story seems so goddamned transparent,there wasnt no fucking immaculate conception,she was just fucked by joseph.

The motive:to aviod possible death penalty.
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Damn, I thought God was really cool by fucking Mary in her sleep, but it turns out he had nothing to do with it?

Seriously, the whole story is a nonsense as there is no contemporary historical evidence for the bible character Jesus ever actually existing.
 
Flores,

Sura 3:185, "Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception."

Surely the soul is not physical? I agree with your post. Death should not be feared, and the righteous will be rewarded. But what about people who lived unrighteous lives, and have many sins. Do they have hope? It is for these people that God gave hope - for the sinners. Christ died for their sins, in the name of God, and forgave their sins by the name of God. Who can forgive sins but God?

Your objection is justified. But our responsibility has been increased as a result, not lessened. We have to live that freedom now, because to sin after you know the way to salvation, is to reject salvation. Paul says quite clearly in his letter to the Hebrews:

(Hebrews 6:4)
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Jesus only died once, and absolved the sins of those who believe. Just as faith is an empty claim without exercising love and rigteousness, so is belief in God's forgiveness. If you believe that you have already been forgiven, you will not persist in sin.

Flores, I understand that you have a real problem that God would send a prophet and call him his only Son, but the Bible is different from the Quran. It does not proclaim anything for itself - it does not prescribe ways of reading it or of showing respect for it - because all it does is point to God's grace and mercy. It does not point to itself. The Bible is just a book, as you say, but God is not just a god - He is the God, and for Him all things are possible: including glorifying His name by His image. And we can follow His example, and glorify His name by conforming to His image. To be truly sons of God, and made rigteous by faith in Him.
 
At least I'm glad you are reading the Quran for a second prespective. Still your points concerning Jesus dieing for sins and stuff is at best very very weak. They are the sort of things that may have no basis whatsoever yet may gain many supporters because It's easy, it shifts the blame, and it satisfies man's desire to know everything about the afterlife now....eventhough the knowledge is useless and baseless.

I was so disapointed yesterday when this little boy came to me to show me his school work, since I have been encouraging him. He wrote a comprehension on the NASA Shuttle. He said that only one of the scientist survived the crash because of his believe in Jesus Christ, and when I asked him, my knowledge says that all of them died, he said, No, christians don't die, all the rest of people die.......What a beautifull concept to hang unto for that little boy....I didn't dare answer him back except with a smile.
 
There will always be people and ideas that cheapen faith, both Christian and Muslim. People want things that are easy and shift the blame, but it will always be a coward's way out. There is no place for cowards in faith, but trusting in God is not cowardly. I believe what Jesus did and said He would do is history, and not "baseless". I testify of God's mercy, because it is also His promise and it is real. God has never shown His love more than sacrificing someone so dear to Him so that I could be certain of life. I do not fear the first death, and I also do not fear the second death. I am truly sorry that you do not share this certainty, because it is to the glory of God that those who serve Him should experience His mercy to the utmost.

Maybe you could tell that child that God loves all of His creation, not just Christians. God will judge a person's heart, and not his religion.
 
God is not just a god - He is the God, and for Him all things are possible: including glorifying His name by His image. And we can follow His example, and glorify His name by conforming to His image. To be truly sons of God, and made rigteous by faith in Him.
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God: An Alpha Male?
 
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