Is jesus the messiah
- Thread starter mustafhakofi
- Start date
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
Jenyar said:
You could say that, also because it gets on my nerves, as you saw in my prior posts to you where I "lost it". I'm not 100% sure of my "disbelief". I read the Bible and believed every word (or basically so) when I was younger, that is probably not going to ever completely go away from my psyche. That meme is there and it's there for good, fortunately or unfortunately. A theology can't be 100% proven to be incorrect. I'll never have that certainty in "disbelief", whether it be of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.
Jenyar said:
I just simply stated a fact. Not everything in the Bible was designed for "reason", was it? Do you think the early hearers of Christianity thought "hmmm, for God so loved the world....", well, let's weigh out the pros and cons of this. I doubt many of them did. I think many of them just took it because it offered hope from a possibly poor existence.. "not many mighty, not many noble".. I wasn't saying it was JUST a beautiful story.
Jenyar said:
You seem to think that I have an idea that God should let everyone in heaven and just "forget it all". That is NOT my problem with Christianity. As you know, my problem with it is one thing wrong = an eternity in hell. Or even worse, being born in "original sin" you're already on the path to an eternity in hell. Horrible. So what is your actual position? Original sin? or a 1 day old child is a sinner? I just want to know the exact view you hold.
Jenyar said:
Ideas of what was moral and not were different then. Besides, if there's a God, what he says goes. Picturing him as "moral" was not necessary. Look at Zeus. If you are asking me if I think the Bible writers were consciously lying, that I am not sure. That could be asked of any religious writing though. People can lie for good purposes, ultimately. I can't answer how the Bible exactly was written and put together. Maybe there were different traditions which were pieced together in order to satisfy different factions. After all, there is the idea that "One can prove anything from the Bible". If you want a verse supporting this view, here it is. If you want a verse supporting another view, here it is. I can't answer how other religious writings exactly were written and perhaps put together, and why. It's just speculation on my part, or an "educated guess" from a "scholar".
I believe that we live in a world that cannot carry its own weight, and it's toppling in on everybody - saints and sinners alike. In isolated, controlled environments, like Israel for instance, it was still possible to separate cause and effect to a certain degree. The difference between those who lived close to God and those who didn't seemed more simple, and their worldview made it possible to "simplify" events. It is madness to extract the way they thought and apply it like that to our worldview. But the advantage of their observations is that give us the greater picture. That's what prophecy was in essence, after all. It gives us a template of faith.anonymous2 said:
When you realize that all is already lost, that death already rules our lives and things are only getting worse, you can see salvation in a different light. What is called "original sin" is just the human condition. Today, we operate from the assumption that life is a given and survival is possible - it's a cautious optimism that resulted in no small part from what happened in Jerusalem 2000 years ago. But it's misplaced for the most part.
We place a high premium on human life, even though it dies. We have placed it on such a pedestal that it has become the supreme inalienable right - even surpassing God in authority. We act as if everybody will live forever. That was the first fatal mistake. Life is only a right because God gave it that right; the benefit of existing and being conscious of it.
God places an even higher premium on human life - life that endures forever. Our meager attempts to prolong life and punish those who shorten it pale in comparison to the requirements for a life that has to be - and could have been - sustained for eternity.
That's why we can't understand hell. It doesn't fit into a hypotheticalextention of this life. Because that's all it is that we do, really. We take a moment of life and extend it hypothetically beyond certain death, "because that's how much we value it," we say. But we must ignore the imminance of death to do that, just like we have to ignore the possibility of being dead to God, and being conscious of it.
All through the Bible, hell is not described for its own sake - it changes from being called simply "darkness" and "the grave" to all the classical descriptions - but for the sake of describing eternal separation from God, from the point of view of someone who realizes his dependance on God. Their goal was never to scare someone with how bad hell is, but with how terrible that separation is. I don't fear hell a millionth as much as I fear being separated from God without hope of reconciliation, and it would have meant that I could blame my own insufficiency for that separation, if it were not for God's assurance of forgiveness.
I have much more faith in God than in hell or the power of sin. Some will put an emphasis on Hitler's victims to show his guilt, but I am certain enough that his personal sin was alteady enough to condemn him. Maybe one day I might also become a victim of a terrorist or an American bomb, but I will know this: it cannot separate me from God's love, or his promise of life.
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Back to whether Jesus is the Messiah (Messiah is actually English but in Greek it is Christ and in Hebrew is Meshiak).
Matthew 16
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am ?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist *: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am ?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
see also:
Mr 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am ? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mr 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Lu 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying *, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Lu 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Doesn't Jesus here make it clear that he is Messiah but that it is a secret?13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am ?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist *: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am ?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
see also:
Mr 8:29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am ? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mr 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Lu 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying *, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Lu 22:67 Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Uh... sorry to burst your Bible, err, bubble, but just because the account says so doesn't make it so.
a) He might not have actually said that.
b) He might have said that but have been wrong.
c) We can see from the use of OT prophecies in the NT that these guys were more than a bit biased in their representations.
d) The people writing this account were over 40 years removed from the actual event. You say they know what Jesus made "clear"?
a) He might not have actually said that.
b) He might have said that but have been wrong.
c) We can see from the use of OT prophecies in the NT that these guys were more than a bit biased in their representations.
d) The people writing this account were over 40 years removed from the actual event. You say they know what Jesus made "clear"?
First, if we can't trust the witnesses, then there is no discussion, so we at least have to stipulate that we are assuming the record is true - at least for the duration of this discussion. If we stipulate the record itself is false, then there is no question here to answer.
Second, Jesus might have been wrong, but unless there is some witness or other proof to the contrary, he should be judged innocent until proven guilty.
Third, the writing of the NT books was much less than 40 years after the fact, certainly prior to 65AD (the beginning of the Jewish revolt) and more likely in the 45AD range, but, even if it was later than 45AD the fact that it was a few years from the event does not invalidate the record or the witnesses.
Fourth, of course they were biased, but that doesn't make them wrong. The question presupposes their bias but seeks to look beyond that bias to determine whether Jesus really was the Messiah. Some have indicated that Jesus did not claim to be Messiah, but as I have shown, he surely did. His claim may be wrong, but he did make the claim - although he also attempted to keep it a secret confined to only his close followers.
Second, Jesus might have been wrong, but unless there is some witness or other proof to the contrary, he should be judged innocent until proven guilty.
Third, the writing of the NT books was much less than 40 years after the fact, certainly prior to 65AD (the beginning of the Jewish revolt) and more likely in the 45AD range, but, even if it was later than 45AD the fact that it was a few years from the event does not invalidate the record or the witnesses.
Fourth, of course they were biased, but that doesn't make them wrong. The question presupposes their bias but seeks to look beyond that bias to determine whether Jesus really was the Messiah. Some have indicated that Jesus did not claim to be Messiah, but as I have shown, he surely did. His claim may be wrong, but he did make the claim - although he also attempted to keep it a secret confined to only his close followers.
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If that was our assumption then we wouldn't be having this thread in the first place, but rather doing the good work begun by c20.
Funny how David F. unhypocritically applies this standard to all other religions...
Like I said, you don't know that he made the claim.
Even Josh McDowell (of all people) recognizes that one of the standards of determining a documents historicity is finding the author's proximity in time and place to the event.
Does it make them right?
How can you "look beyond" their bias? Can you possibly get any more arbitrary?
To the unbelievers,
We Christians are aware of your unbelief. We recognise it. It is a 'state of mind'. We believe that unbelief is unhealthy. We see it similiary to someone having a broken leg. We can see the 'break', the divorce between you and the one that says "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me'.
We ourselves do not feel divorced from God but instead we feel married to God through our faithfulness. We are the faithful wife.
Now which one among you would appreciate another man interfering or belittling your relationships with your own wives for it is written "For what God has joined together let no man seperate".
Spiritually speaking you are asking us to consider committing adultery against the Most High God.
Now I dont mean to frighten you, but what would you feel towards the man that tried to seduce your wife away from you? Given that the Husband we are speaking of is the Maker of Heaven and Earth.
You are like that seducer, saying "Do not worry, your husband has gone away on a very long trip and will most likely never return. Come, come with us and enjoy the fruits of our love, come and get drunk with us and rejoice that your evil tyrant of a husband has gone. Do not consider him because he has always treated his women poorly. See, he has even left you. He is not here is he?"
But because we are faithful wives and reject your advances, you mock us and taunt us instead to show the other young wives who have only just been unified with their Husband, that their union will cause the whole world to reject them. You make them afraid to know God with the lies that you peddle about Him. You pit yourselves against God and I tell you that my Husband could beat me and whip me and throw me outside and I would sit on His doorstep needing His love because there is no place else to go. But I know that my Husband is faithful and kind because it is written
Matthew 5:32
but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery. ASV
My Husband is not a hypocrite. Woe to you that cause these little ones to stumble. Woe to you that cause these little ones to lose faith. Woe to you that try to cause division among brothers. Woe to you that deny others the Kingdom of Heaven and refuse to enter yourselves. Who seduced you? You who knew the truth! Who seduced you?
As for us, we will stand firm. God cannot be undermined by your attempts to seduce us away because we are faithful to Him as good wives ought be.
Our Husband is very rich and powerful. He is the King of Kings. What do you think He will say when He hears of what you have been doing? When He sees His bride crying, her bridal gown torn, her hair dishevelled by your maulings. I tell you He will have the perpetrator's thrown in the darkest dungeon and lift up the countenance of His bride with a smile that she may know fully His intentions towards her and once again she may trust in His love for her. That bride will soon forget the troubles she faced, but those perpetrators will always know darkness.
In the darkness you can do the evil things you are want to do with no further fear of punishment. Like a man on death row without hope, not believing there is a pardon for him. If only you that remained in darkness were to beg a pardon! Do you not know that God is a 'just' God and that He is merciful to those who call His name?
But even now you hurl insults through the prison bars, upsetting the guards who are tired of your noise. Even those guards are wishing that your end will come so that your noise may at last be silenced. How those guards wish that you would feel remorse for what you do for they know the King is merciful and would set you free but instead you curse Him and mock Him and as such you will remain where you are.
We Christians are aware of your unbelief. We recognise it. It is a 'state of mind'. We believe that unbelief is unhealthy. We see it similiary to someone having a broken leg. We can see the 'break', the divorce between you and the one that says "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me'.
We ourselves do not feel divorced from God but instead we feel married to God through our faithfulness. We are the faithful wife.
Now which one among you would appreciate another man interfering or belittling your relationships with your own wives for it is written "For what God has joined together let no man seperate".
Spiritually speaking you are asking us to consider committing adultery against the Most High God.
Now I dont mean to frighten you, but what would you feel towards the man that tried to seduce your wife away from you? Given that the Husband we are speaking of is the Maker of Heaven and Earth.
You are like that seducer, saying "Do not worry, your husband has gone away on a very long trip and will most likely never return. Come, come with us and enjoy the fruits of our love, come and get drunk with us and rejoice that your evil tyrant of a husband has gone. Do not consider him because he has always treated his women poorly. See, he has even left you. He is not here is he?"
But because we are faithful wives and reject your advances, you mock us and taunt us instead to show the other young wives who have only just been unified with their Husband, that their union will cause the whole world to reject them. You make them afraid to know God with the lies that you peddle about Him. You pit yourselves against God and I tell you that my Husband could beat me and whip me and throw me outside and I would sit on His doorstep needing His love because there is no place else to go. But I know that my Husband is faithful and kind because it is written
Matthew 5:32
but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery. ASV
My Husband is not a hypocrite. Woe to you that cause these little ones to stumble. Woe to you that cause these little ones to lose faith. Woe to you that try to cause division among brothers. Woe to you that deny others the Kingdom of Heaven and refuse to enter yourselves. Who seduced you? You who knew the truth! Who seduced you?
As for us, we will stand firm. God cannot be undermined by your attempts to seduce us away because we are faithful to Him as good wives ought be.
Our Husband is very rich and powerful. He is the King of Kings. What do you think He will say when He hears of what you have been doing? When He sees His bride crying, her bridal gown torn, her hair dishevelled by your maulings. I tell you He will have the perpetrator's thrown in the darkest dungeon and lift up the countenance of His bride with a smile that she may know fully His intentions towards her and once again she may trust in His love for her. That bride will soon forget the troubles she faced, but those perpetrators will always know darkness.
In the darkness you can do the evil things you are want to do with no further fear of punishment. Like a man on death row without hope, not believing there is a pardon for him. If only you that remained in darkness were to beg a pardon! Do you not know that God is a 'just' God and that He is merciful to those who call His name?
But even now you hurl insults through the prison bars, upsetting the guards who are tired of your noise. Even those guards are wishing that your end will come so that your noise may at last be silenced. How those guards wish that you would feel remorse for what you do for they know the King is merciful and would set you free but instead you curse Him and mock Him and as such you will remain where you are.
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
C20, you might want to think about addressing people individually, but I know the book you believe in regards unbelievers as children of the devil basically, so I can't be surprised. BE HAPPY IN YOUR BELIEF. Let me say it again. REJOICE IN IT. You regard us as having broken legs, we regard you as following a divisive, repressive belief system.
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anonymous2 said:
Of course you do! Which prisoner doesnt? You are retained at His Majesty's pleasure until you repent of your wickedness. Perhaps if you repent of your wickedness you will be shown kindness and released early! Then you may be allowed to walk freely again in the light of day knowing that you have been pardoned.
The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000.
The Psalms 25
A Prayer for Guidance, Pardon and Protection
A Psalm of David.
1 Unto thee, O LORD, do I lift up my soul.
2 O my God, I trust in thee:
let me not be ashamed,
let not mine enemies triumph over me.
3 Yea, let none that wait on thee be ashamed:
let them be ashamed which transgress without cause.
4 Show me thy ways, O LORD;
teach me thy paths.
5 Lead me in thy truth, and teach me:
for thou art the God of my salvation;
on thee do I wait all the day.
6 Remember, O LORD, thy tender mercies and thy loving-kindnesses;
for they have been ever of old.
7 Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions:
according to thy mercy remember thou me
for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.
8 Good and upright is the LORD:
therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9 The meek will he guide in judgment:
and the meek will he teach his way.
10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth
unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11 For thy name's sake, O LORD,
pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
12 What man is he that feareth the LORD?
Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13 His soul shall dwell at ease;
and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him;
and he will show them his covenant.
15 Mine eyes are ever toward the LORD;
for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.
16 Turn thee unto me, and have mercy upon me;
for I am desolate and afflicted.
17 The troubles of my heart are enlarged:
O bring thou me out of my distresses.
18 Look upon mine affliction and my pain;
and forgive all my sins.
19 Consider mine enemies; for they are many;
and they hate me with cruel hatred.
20 O keep my soul, and deliver me:
let me not be ashamed; for I put my trust in thee.
21 Let integrity and uprightness preserve me;
for I wait on thee.
22 Redeem Israel, O God,
out of all his troubles.
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
c20H25N3o said:
C20, I've "been there, done that". It's over. I can't go back. I can't return to the faith which you love and which I once loved. It's basically the point of no return. I will not remotely blame you for trying to preach to people, because in a sense, I was you at one time. We've reversed roles. You were the nonbeliever who "saw the light". I "saw the light" and it didn't "stick".
anonymous2 said:
anonymous2 - You are being called back to faith. You know your shepard's voice. His word will not fail in you. So the thorns rose up and choked you but God loves His Garden and he will tear up those unsightly weeds and throw them in the compost, then He will tend to you.
peace
your brother
c20
nobody hates you,c20 your just a frigging loony, if you enjoy it, then it's yours just dont hurt anyone.
and the lord god said blessed are the loonys, for they shall inherit the asylum.
and the lord god said blessed are the loonys, for they shall inherit the asylum.
spirit of patronisation: nobody hates you,c20
spirit of ridicule: your just a frigging loony,
spirit of unbelief: if you enjoy it, then it's yours just dont hurt anyone.
spirit of mockery : and the lord god said blessed are the loonys, for they shall inherit the asylum.
spirit of ridicule: your just a frigging loony,
spirit of unbelief: if you enjoy it, then it's yours just dont hurt anyone.
spirit of mockery : and the lord god said blessed are the loonys, for they shall inherit the asylum.
How can we discuss whether or not Jesus is the messiah if one side of the discussion insists that Jesus did not exist or that all records concerning him are false? If this is the case, then there is no basis for discussion.§outh§tar said:
You're argument seems to be "I don't believe anything therefore nothing you say is true."
I started as a fervent Christian, but I fell away and I have decided Christianity was correct and I came back - and have been back now for many years. Where is the point of no return? I don't think the light ever really left, I just ignored it for a short while.anonymous2 said:
To mustafhakofi
You say, "firstly I would like to ask have you ever read your bible."
I say, "firstly I would like to ask have you ever read your Koran?"
'The Family of Imran' 003:45
'Rembember when the angel said, "O Mary! Verily God announceth to thee the Word from Him: His name shall be, Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, illustrious in this world, and in the next, and one of those who have near access to God;'
aguy2
You say, "firstly I would like to ask have you ever read your bible."
I say, "firstly I would like to ask have you ever read your Koran?"
'The Family of Imran' 003:45
'Rembember when the angel said, "O Mary! Verily God announceth to thee the Word from Him: His name shall be, Messiah Jesus the son of Mary, illustrious in this world, and in the next, and one of those who have near access to God;'
aguy2
You know Mr. Snake, you're really just a bully aren't you. You don't want to discuss or be rational. All you want to do is be a heckler. You criticise others for their beliefs but you have nothing of your own to offer. You yell about others not answering questions but you don't bother to answer questions put to you. You whine about proof but will offer none of your own. You have no desire for anything good, only to tear others down to your level.SnakeLord said:
I know your type - whine whine whine...