Originally posted by LostInThought7
Yes, but this theoritical man that I created helps me prove that God judges unfairly, according to the Bible, that is.
No, a theoretical person can only interact with an equally theoretical God. If he was a real person whom you knew, he would have had a chance to hear about God wouldn't he?
Whoa. I'm sorry, but every single Christian I've ever talked to continuosly talks about how being a good person is not enough, you have to become a Christian. Supossedly, the bible even confirms this.
Romans 2
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
This theoritical man that I created? Yes, I do know. He is good; he is not evil. And how can I be sure that he will be judged fairly? Because that's what a moral God would do? So which one are we talking about trusting, a moral god, or the God of the Bible?
Once again, you can only go so far with a theoretical man living by theoretical laws. If he is a righteous man, he might be saved. But he can't be
certain of his salvation until he has heard of it. That means his life might be lived in fear, and God does not want that. But if he doesn't fear God (which is done by treating life with love and respect - whether he knows God or not), he isn't righteous.
But faith in God isn't enough. When Moses laws came around, you couldn't just have faith and be okay, you had you get a priest to do the rituals to forgive you of your sins. And now, God decided that since we can't even do that right, all we need to do is believe that Jesus is part God, and accept him as our saviour from hell. The laws change through time. According to what I've heard Christians say, Jews will not go to heaven because they do not accept Christ. Not even the Jews that follow the old law to the tee.
Israel had a special burden on them, because through them salvation would come to all men. They were the first "Christians" in a sense, because they knew it was possible to attain salvation. But it was a long, hard road. Fortunately, they walked it and we reap the benefits (this was also explained to them in prophecy). They represent the learning curve of being God's chosen.
Christ showed that folowing the law to a tee was not sufficient anymore. It was a measure to lead people in the right direction, but if you don't keep in mind where you are going with it you will never reach the destination. God, and then Jesus, came to Israel first, remember - Jews no longer have a temple, king, priests or prophets. They might still be saved by faith, but once again: how can they be sure?
Again, this contradicts everything that I know about Christianity. You have to actually accept Jesus as the Son of God and all that to go to heaven. That's why there are missionaries. Because unless the Pagan peoples of Africa don't hear the messege of Jesus, they will die and go to hell. Jesus may have died for them, but his death itself didn't save them, they have to accept his him as their saviour.
You have to accept Jesus to be
certain of heaven. The goal of missionaries is to restore the image God created people in - to remove their fear. To give you an idea: in Africa the native people believe their ancestors determine their fortunes, and they constantly have to keep them happy or live in fear of possesions and all kinds of evils and retributions beyond their control. When Jesus drove out demons, it was among people who believed in demons - and I can tell you it's a very real experience to them, whatever a Westerner might think. The fear and superstition among these people is tangible. In the past, out of ignorance missionaries and colonialists tried to apply Western/European values to "civilize" these people. But Jesus wasn't a Westerner in the first place.
You can see now how words of Jesus in Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple" can have a very potent meaning. If respect for your parents are only for the sake that they might favour you after they're dead, they are worth more to you dead than alive. But if their - and your own - life is worth what God says it's worth, then evil spirits have indeed been defeated by trusting your life to God.
Let's see if I have this right. All I need to do is be a good person, and trust God with my life. I try to be good;in fact, my main goal in life is to try to find out what would be the right thing for me to do in life, and do it. Those who trust God, huh? Do you mean, trust God or trust men? Because the prophets of God are men. There are false prophets, this is mentioned everywhere in the Bible. How do I know that Isaiah or Moses wasn't false prophets. How do I know that Paul or even Jesus himself is not a liar? So, if I had clear cut proof that God existed, and wasn't all evil and junk (if he was moral in my mind), then, yeah, I'd have no problem trusting him (probably not with my life, though, I'm not a slave, we are all acountable for our own actions). But since I don't have proof (in fact, I have much anti-proof), I can't do that.
Test their words. That's how prophets were tested, and that how Jesus proposed you test His words in John 7:
17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
Being a good person won't be enough, but it will keep you on the right path which eventually
will be enough. But if you aren't prepared to give your life to Him (He gave it to you in the first place, remember?) - if you try to keep it for yourself - you will lose it. Otherwise you are doing good for your own sake, as if you could save yourself from dying... the very problem Jesus had with the Jewish teachers. Without faith, you will be worse of in this world trying to be good for "God's" sake, than just being selfish for your own sake.
I'd much rather worry about truth and morality and the general well-being of the human race. My immortal soul comes after these things on my priority list.
No problem with that. But the human race can't do anything for your soul, and it will go on without you once you're dead.
They didn't give you life.
