Is it rape if consent is not possible?
- Thread starter Norsefire
- Start date
You're right. I've dabbled in a sense with some of these issues, and it's not easy. I'll send you a PM about this.
A-depends, this issue has been covered throughout the thread.
B-Uh, its ****ing sick, for sure, and yeah, that is rape.
C-This is a very loaded question. Drugging someone into sleeping with you is rape. But if a drunk person consents to sex, that's rape?
Wow, I'm never hitting a singles bar again.
Considering a proposition more complicated than it need be
That's a touchier issue. In the context James R presented in his second reply to the thread—
—it is unquestionably rape.
To the other, seven years ago, my girlfriend and I decided to go out for Valentine's Day, even though our unstable relationship was, technically, in a period of separation. ("If we can't even be friends and go out together ...," she begged, and I shrugged and said okay.)
So we set off on what I thought was a really bad idea of hot-tubbing at a local business with a somewhat sordid reputation. Along the way, we passed one of our favorite bars, and lo and behold, Crack Sabbath was playing. Five bucks to see Skerik? Ya sure, you betcha! A new plan was formed instantly.
We drank, stumbled back to my place together, and despite our relationship being allegedly in an "off" mode, she wanted to have sex. Sounded good. And she decided she wanted me to come inside her. Sounded good.
So who raped who?
And what do we tell the daughter we conceived that night?
I disagree with the idea that even one drink renders one unfuckable under the law, but some have asserted it over time.
As a basic consideration, I would suggest the rape issue is hardly your foremost concern in terms of singles bars. Unless, of course, there is something about your approach and style that you would consider an extenuating or complicating circumstance capable of increasing your criminal exposure. I don't say that as a jab, but in the United States, there are plenty of women who resent the idea that a drink or two renders them incapable to consent to a shag. But if a guy is one of those types who says he can make her feel wonderful and then painfully fucks the holy living shit out of her? Well, the fact of her alcohol consumption would likely be held against the accused by a jury if his defense was, "Yeah, we did it, but she said yes."
ShredMetalBlues said:
That's a touchier issue. In the context James R presented in his second reply to the thread—
"I mean, are you seriously suggesting it is ok to have sex with any person who is so drunk that they don't know what they're doing?"
—it is unquestionably rape.
To the other, seven years ago, my girlfriend and I decided to go out for Valentine's Day, even though our unstable relationship was, technically, in a period of separation. ("If we can't even be friends and go out together ...," she begged, and I shrugged and said okay.)
So we set off on what I thought was a really bad idea of hot-tubbing at a local business with a somewhat sordid reputation. Along the way, we passed one of our favorite bars, and lo and behold, Crack Sabbath was playing. Five bucks to see Skerik? Ya sure, you betcha! A new plan was formed instantly.
We drank, stumbled back to my place together, and despite our relationship being allegedly in an "off" mode, she wanted to have sex. Sounded good. And she decided she wanted me to come inside her. Sounded good.
So who raped who?
And what do we tell the daughter we conceived that night?
I disagree with the idea that even one drink renders one unfuckable under the law, but some have asserted it over time.
As a basic consideration, I would suggest the rape issue is hardly your foremost concern in terms of singles bars. Unless, of course, there is something about your approach and style that you would consider an extenuating or complicating circumstance capable of increasing your criminal exposure. I don't say that as a jab, but in the United States, there are plenty of women who resent the idea that a drink or two renders them incapable to consent to a shag. But if a guy is one of those types who says he can make her feel wonderful and then painfully fucks the holy living shit out of her? Well, the fact of her alcohol consumption would likely be held against the accused by a jury if his defense was, "Yeah, we did it, but she said yes."
Tiassa, it does get interesting doesnt it
for instance i came home from work one night and my partner was so drunk she couldnt stand up straight yet she wanted sex (VERY MUCH), in the end i stoped it and put her to bed simply because she couldnt sit on a chair without falling off but is that rape concidering that its no different (in the sence of us having sex rather than her level of intoxication) than any other time. There was another occasion where i was the really drunk one and she more sober (i cant rember just how sober she was). Its kind of like the question of dementia pts having sex except that achole acts as an aphradiac as well (and is oviously temporary)
it gets much more interesting when you ARNT talking about regular sexual partners, for instance where as if said i gave pb a couple of drinks to "get her in the mood" people would probably just shrug where if it was someone else giving her a couple of drinks in order to have sex with her when she wouldnt normally do it it could well be concidered rape.
"it depends" seems to be the answer to most ethical questions
for instance i came home from work one night and my partner was so drunk she couldnt stand up straight yet she wanted sex (VERY MUCH
), in the end i stoped it and put her to bed simply because she couldnt sit on a chair without falling off but is that rape concidering that its no different (in the sence of us having sex rather than her level of intoxication) than any other time. There was another occasion where i was the really drunk one and she more sober (i cant rember just how sober she was). Its kind of like the question of dementia pts having sex except that achole acts as an aphradiac as well (and is oviously temporary)it gets much more interesting when you ARNT talking about regular sexual partners, for instance where as if said i gave pb a couple of drinks to "get her in the mood" people would probably just shrug where if it was someone else giving her a couple of drinks in order to have sex with her when she wouldnt normally do it it could well be concidered rape.
"it depends" seems to be the answer to most ethical questions
Actually, speaking from an evolutionary standpoint, several viewpoints might point to the answer to that being "yes".
And several more could quite as easily debunk it.
How about a freshly killed corpse?
Are necrophiliacs rapists?
The more you lot discuss the minutiae of rape, the more confused you begin to appear.
It' very entertaining, though.
Still, though ....
Well, it can, but you're more sensitive about certain boundaries than I am. For instance:
With regular sexual partners, the line is much more elastic. As far as I'm concerned, as long as you weren't bruising her internally there would have been no problem with accommodating her sloppy, drunken desire. There is supposed to be a state of love and trust between intimates in general, and more so with long-term intimates.
But ....
I tend to think that far more often than not, the outcome should be fairly obvious. You tend toward the cautious side. I can't possibly object to that. To the other, look at the number of rape threads we've had of late. I'm starting to wonder, since the boundaries are so foggy for so many people, if I should be worried.
My former partner used to tell me to fuck her in her sleep, and if she had stayed asleep I probably would have. But she would wake up and protest, so after a while, I didn't bother trying. And then we would get in a fight about something related to the pathetic nature of our congress and she would say, "Well, why don't you just fuck me when I'm asleep?" And I would reply, "Because you wake up and say 'No'." And she would get all confused and say, "Really?"
Then again, I also knew a bit about her dishonesty, which could only be mitigated if it was proven her memory was clinically warped, and, well, that wouldn't help the situation much, either. Add to that her vindictive nature, and it just isn't worth it for a third-rate orgasm.
I mean, hell, if I couldn't figure that out, I shouldn't be fucking anyone. Oh, wait, you already think that about me, anyway.
Asguard said:
Tiassa, it does get interesting doesnt it
Well, it can, but you're more sensitive about certain boundaries than I am. For instance:
With regular sexual partners, the line is much more elastic. As far as I'm concerned, as long as you weren't bruising her internally there would have been no problem with accommodating her sloppy, drunken desire. There is supposed to be a state of love and trust between intimates in general, and more so with long-term intimates.
But ....
"it depends" seems to be the answer to most ethical questions
I tend to think that far more often than not, the outcome should be fairly obvious. You tend toward the cautious side. I can't possibly object to that. To the other, look at the number of rape threads we've had of late. I'm starting to wonder, since the boundaries are so foggy for so many people, if I should be worried.
My former partner used to tell me to fuck her in her sleep, and if she had stayed asleep I probably would have. But she would wake up and protest, so after a while, I didn't bother trying. And then we would get in a fight about something related to the pathetic nature of our congress and she would say, "Well, why don't you just fuck me when I'm asleep?" And I would reply, "Because you wake up and say 'No'." And she would get all confused and say, "Really?"
Then again, I also knew a bit about her dishonesty, which could only be mitigated if it was proven her memory was clinically warped, and, well, that wouldn't help the situation much, either. Add to that her vindictive nature, and it just isn't worth it for a third-rate orgasm.
I mean, hell, if I couldn't figure that out, I shouldn't be fucking anyone. Oh, wait, you already think that about me, anyway.
AH yes been there, had that fight
pb was the same, "i dont care if you fuck me while im asleep" and then complaining i woke her up trying to get her undies off and getting shitty cause she has to go to work. the irratating thing is that im trying to do it as a sleep aid (got really bad insomnia off and on) and if i do it myself she gets even more shitty
been there, had that fightpb was the same, "i dont care if you fuck me while im asleep" and then complaining i woke her up trying to get her undies off and getting shitty cause she has to go to work. the irratating thing is that im trying to do it as a sleep aid (got really bad insomnia off and on) and if i do it myself she gets even more shitty
oh as to the cautious bit i think that goes back to my studies. i used to be very black and white but im find it harder and harder to make a definitive judgement on anything that is not very specific because i can think of situations where it just doesnt fit.
the section about the mentally impared and sex is a good example. i can difinitly say if it was me with an ABI i wouldnt care as long as she let me die but i can also see situations where it would be blatant abuse. the same with sex in nursing homes and mental institutions, what right do we have to limit there freedoms further but we also have an obligation to prevent abuse and how do balance one against the other, not to mention full investigations beforebor after sex kind of take the fun out of it not to mention being a further restriction on people who already have to little control over there own lives
the section about the mentally impared and sex is a good example. i can difinitly say if it was me with an ABI i wouldnt care as long as she let me die but i can also see situations where it would be blatant abuse. the same with sex in nursing homes and mental institutions, what right do we have to limit there freedoms further but we also have an obligation to prevent abuse and how do balance one against the other, not to mention full investigations beforebor after sex kind of take the fun out of it not to mention being a further restriction on people who already have to little control over there own lives
Hahaha. I had to give my cat a bath in the sink recently, as was thinking exactly the same thing. My cat not only has a will, she's also quite well-equipped to communicate her will in dramatic, painful fashion when she doesn't consent to what's happening to her.Come give my cat a pill and tell me she doesn't have a will.
Nobody raped anyone in that scenario. Both parties drank irresponsibly, and then had sex. If both parties were happily drunk, and enjoyed the evening, then its just two people having a good time.
If either party wants to complain about it later...tough. They drank too much, and consented to a stupid thing, which they now regret. That's generally a rule of life: doing stupid things causes problems. And drinking to the point of not realizing you are consenting to sex in an environment where you can be taken advantage of is stupid.
Saying that at some point if a person drinks too much they cannot consent to sex alleviates that person of all responsibility for their actions. Not only that, their partner is responsible for the drunk's actions. A law stating something similar is completely unfair to men in this scenario, and has insane potential for abuse.
Fortunately, there is no such law. I hope.
The test applied in a court of law would be to ask "Would a reasonable person in your position have gone ahead and had sex with her, knowing that she was clearly intoxicated and might not be consenting?"
If the answer is "No", then you could be judged recklessly indifferent to whether she was consenting or not, and therefore potentially guilty of rape.
I don't think it would be worth the risk, myself.
I think that legally in order for this sort of "they both raped each other" scenario to occur you would need both people to be so drunk that they can't consent to sex, but also both aware that the other person is too drunk to consent to sex. Whether or not that's even possible is debatable, since many would probably argue that by the time someone is too drunk to consent to sex, they're also too drunk to realize when someone else is too drunk to consent to sex. If neither person realizes that their partner is too intoxicated to consent, then legally no crime has occurred.
But I suppose that if you're willing to accept that two people could be so intoxicated that they can't consent but also aware that their partner is too intoxicated to consent, then hypothetically you could have two people mutually rape each other and both be guilty. Two people can both be charged with assaulting each other if they mutually engage in a fight. I suppose the same could theoretically happen with rape.
But I suppose that if you're willing to accept that two people could be so intoxicated that they can't consent but also aware that their partner is too intoxicated to consent, then hypothetically you could have two people mutually rape each other and both be guilty. Two people can both be charged with assaulting each other if they mutually engage in a fight. I suppose the same could theoretically happen with rape.
Okay here's a another SNAFU.
Guy and girl have been going together for a while, now live together and sleep in same bed. They go out to party one night and she gets completely trashed but he stays sober. She's begging him for sex, but he very rationally refuses. Now he tucks her intot bed and crawls in himself. After they both drift off she wakes up a few hours later still drunk and horny. Now it is a fact that when men sleep we get and erection. So Gall mounts guy and start riding him like there is no tomorrow. Initially and probably for sometime he is a asleep as he had been exhausted.
Now this cases is unlikely to ever see a courtroom but how would they handle it?
Guy and girl have been going together for a while, now live together and sleep in same bed. They go out to party one night and she gets completely trashed but he stays sober. She's begging him for sex, but he very rationally refuses. Now he tucks her intot bed and crawls in himself. After they both drift off she wakes up a few hours later still drunk and horny. Now it is a fact that when men sleep we get and erection. So Gall mounts guy and start riding him like there is no tomorrow. Initially and probably for sometime he is a asleep as he had been exhausted.
Now this cases is unlikely to ever see a courtroom but how would they handle it?
depends on if they are considered common-law man and wife.
if they aren't considered common law then she raped him.
Define "reasonable person". If a guy is at a party, and some drunk girl wants to sleep with him, do you think its unreasonable that he agrees? When people are partying they're generally trying to have fun, and getting drunk and getting laid is generally pretty fun.
The test that you suggest leaves way too much... leeway. As in, you might think its unreasonable to sleep with a woman who's had a few double shots and stumbling a bit, but somebody else might not. Personally, I don't see the problem with it, especially if there is consent. That's the golden rule for rape: no consent.
A system where consent can be rendered null and void, based on a person's feelings about said consent the next day, could be abused. And if a system can be exploited, somebody will exploit it. That's how some people are.
And assuming your system were actually written into law, no, sleeping with any girl who has been drinking at all wouldn't be worth the risk.
Let me ask you a question James; how do you feel about people going to bars/parties to get drunk and laid? I'm going to assume you don't do too much of that yourself, but do you look down on other people who party? Trying to get some perspective on your views.