Is it rape if consent is not possible?

[Nasor]

But if you don't catch one after risky behavior, you're not stupid?

Yes, I see your point. One might be happy that they luckily got away with doing something stupid.

When I made my initial comment I was thinking more about emotional aspects of one-night-stands. It seems that on average, women are more likely to regret them than men. There will be plenty of exceptions, of course.

 

[Dr Lou Natic]

So a man is smart for having a one night stand and a woman is stupid for the same?

Absolutely. In much the same way it's smart for a woman to get married and stupid for a man to do the same.
Think about it, it in no way harms or hinders a man to have his jizz out there in as many whore-holes as possible, some wads may succeed in producing babies that will turn into successfull adults, some won't, maybe none will, so what? he's invested maybe 3 or 4 minutes per wad, maybe 400 calories of effort in the humping process if he was particularly vigorous.
It's a completely different kettle of fish from the female's perspective, every wad of jizz she accepts is potentially a huge committment, a child she has to raise, I won't begin to tally up the years and resources she will have to sacrifice, not to mention the fact she can only have so many children in her lifetime, and if it's a man who was not particularly interested in her, all that work will be going into a fatherless child, and statistics show they rarely turn out to be very good anyway.
It's deeply ingrained in women that it's in their best interest to find a quality mate, and more than that to ensure that the mate is comitted to them and will stick around to take care of the child.
It's in a woman's instincts to be very particular, and reluctant to have sex untill she has sealed a deal through her coy allure and charms.
Make no mistake, man/woman interactions are contests, struggles where the man is trying to get sex with no strings attached and women are trying to get serious relationships. Men are just winning a lot lately, tricking stupid women.

You might try and argue about contraception and shit like that, and yeah the relationship isn't as clear cut anymore and things don't turn out in the traditional natural ways, women can get away with failing to turn down deadbeats and men who successfully trick women can get punished with child support payments, but deep down in a woman's soul (or instincts) she yearns for a serious committed relationship, she's not meaning to consent to one night stands, it's not what she really wants, it's often just all she can hope for and the closest thing, a temporary fantasy with a drawn out hangover of regret, shame and the general unease that comes with being violated.

From an outside perspective, if an alien species was studying human beings as animals, the difference between rape and one night stands would be trivial and inconsequential, they'd be considered the same thing. Unworthy males finding a way to pass on their genes through deceit rather than the traditional tribal mating habits of the species.

 

[John99]

Legally, consensual sex with an intoxicated person certainly might be considered rape. But morally, I wouldn't consider it equivalent to rape if the person is intoxicated but still aware of what's going on and what they are consenting to. It certainly might be morally shady, but I don't think it's in the same ballpark as having sex with a person who doesn't consent at all.

i agree but there are too many factors that come into play. only one factor is how intoxicated the person is because they can be so intoxicated that they would pass out then it is certainly questionable and could definitely be rape. just as i have pointed out here before, if you rob an intoxicated person then it is still robbery.

 

[Nasor]

if you rob an intoxicated person then it is still robbery.

Well, yes. But a better analogy might be "If an intoxicated person lends me their car, have I stolen it?" Perhaps I have, if the person is so intoxicated that they don't understand what they're doing when they hand me the keys. But if they understand that I want to borrow their car and agree to it, then I don't think I have, even if the person is intoxicated when they agree to it. The next day the person might regret it and say "Damn it, I would never have lent him my car if I had been sober," but that doesn't change the fact that they did indeed agree to let me use the car at the time.

 

[takandjive]

Yes, I see your point. One might be happy that they luckily got away with doing something stupid.

When I made my initial comment I was thinking more about emotional aspects of one-night-stands. It seems that on average, women are more likely to regret them than men. There will be plenty of exceptions, of course.

Agreed, and agreed.

Absolutely. In much the same way it's smart for a woman to get married and stupid for a man to do the same.
Think about it, it in no way harms or hinders a man to have his jizz out there in as many whore-holes as possible, some wads may succeed in producing babies that will turn into successfull adults, some won't, maybe none will, so what? he's invested maybe 3 or 4 minutes per wad, maybe 400 calories of effort in the humping process if he was particularly vigorous.

The people I've slept with generally prefer my "whore-holes" because of a whole package deal.

It's a completely different kettle of fish from the female's perspective, every wad of jizz she accepts is potentially a huge committment, a child she has to raise, I won't begin to tally up the years and resources she will have to sacrifice, not to mention the fact she can only have so many children in her lifetime, and if it's a man who was not particularly interested in her, all that work will be going into a fatherless child, and statistics show they rarely turn out to be very good anyway.

I take the pill. :shrug: I'm just happy sleeping with one person because I'm satisfied.

It's deeply ingrained in women that it's in their best interest to find a quality mate, and more than that to ensure that the mate is comitted to them and will stick around to take care of the child.
It's in a woman's instincts to be very particular, and reluctant to have sex untill she has sealed a deal through her coy allure and charms.

Putting your cock in many "whore-holes" still isn't smart. STDs, STIs, child support...

Make no mistake, man/woman interactions are contests, struggles where the man is trying to get sex with no strings attached and women are trying to get serious relationships. Men are just winning a lot lately, tricking stupid women.

That's a pretty silly heterocentric view. I've had a one night stand and never called the person. Didn't want it. Also, my boyfriend seems to like being that. It's not that he can't get other pussy. In fact, most of the men I've dated have been very good-looking and charming. They were having exclusive relationships with me because they chose it. I'm not that seductive.

You might try and argue about contraception and shit like that, and yeah the relationship isn't as clear cut anymore and things don't turn out in the traditional natural ways, women can get away with failing to turn down deadbeats and men who successfully trick women can get punished with child support payments, but deep down in a woman's soul (or instincts) she yearns for a serious committed relationship, she's not meaning to consent to one night stands, it's not what she really wants, it's often just all she can hope for and the closest thing, a temporary fantasy with a drawn out hangover of regret, shame and the general unease that comes with being violated.

I didn't actually want a boyfriend. I would rather focus on my school right now. Frankly, I question if I wouldn't be better off a lesbian.

From an outside perspective, if an alien species was studying human beings as animals, the difference between rape and one night stands would be trivial and inconsequential, they'd be considered the same thing. Unworthy males finding a way to pass on their genes through deceit rather than the traditional tribal mating habits of the species.

I think the whole nuance of force divides those two sharply. One night stands ARE part of the traditional mating ritual; most people have had one.

Well, yes. But a better analogy might be "If an intoxicated person lends me their car, have I stolen it?" Perhaps I have, if the person is so intoxicated that they don't understand what they're doing when they hand me the keys. But if they understand that I want to borrow their car and agree to it, then I don't think I have, even if the person is intoxicated when they agree to it. The next day the person might regret it and say "Damn it, I would never have lent him my car if I had been sober," but that doesn't change the fact that they did indeed agree to let me use the car at the time.

Worthy of discussion. The drunk one's a bit harder, isn't it?

 

[visceral_instinct]

If there isn't informed consent, it's rape.

I say 'informed' because you could drug someone then ask them if they wanted to fuck, then take their half-paralyzed slur as a yes.

 

[takandjive]

If there isn't informed consent, it's rape.

I say 'informed' because you could drug someone then ask them if they wanted to fuck, then take their half-paralyzed slur as a yes.

Is having sex with a brain-damaged spouse rape?

 

[visceral_instinct]

Absolutely. In much the same way it's smart for a woman to get married and stupid for a man to do the same.
Think about it, it in no way harms or hinders a man to have his jizz out there in as many whore-holes as possible, some wads may succeed in producing babies that will turn into successfull adults, some won't, maybe none will, so what? he's invested maybe 3 or 4 minutes per wad, maybe 400 calories of effort in the humping process if he was particularly vigorous.
It's a completely different kettle of fish from the female's perspective, every wad of jizz she accepts is potentially a huge committment, a child she has to raise, I won't begin to tally up the years and resources she will have to sacrifice, not to mention the fact she can only have so many children in her lifetime, and if it's a man who was not particularly interested in her, all that work will be going into a fatherless child, and statistics show they rarely turn out to be very good anyway.
It's deeply ingrained in women that it's in their best interest to find a quality mate, and more than that to ensure that the mate is comitted to them and will stick around to take care of the child.
It's in a woman's instincts to be very particular, and reluctant to have sex untill she has sealed a deal through her coy allure and charms.
Make no mistake, man/woman interactions are contests, struggles where the man is trying to get sex with no strings attached and women are trying to get serious relationships. Men are just winning a lot lately, tricking stupid women.

You might try and argue about contraception and shit like that, and yeah the relationship isn't as clear cut anymore and things don't turn out in the traditional natural ways, women can get away with failing to turn down deadbeats and men who successfully trick women can get punished with child support payments, but deep down in a woman's soul (or instincts) she yearns for a serious committed relationship, she's not meaning to consent to one night stands, it's not what she really wants, it's often just all she can hope for and the closest thing, a temporary fantasy with a drawn out hangover of regret, shame and the general unease that comes with being violated.

From an outside perspective, if an alien species was studying human beings as animals, the difference between rape and one night stands would be trivial and inconsequential, they'd be considered the same thing. Unworthy males finding a way to pass on their genes through deceit rather than the traditional tribal mating habits of the species.

Where are you getting your statistics and evidence from?

Either post some links to support this rubbish or shut up.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Is having sex with a brain-damaged spouse rape?

How brain damaged are we talking about here? How lucid is this hypothetical person?

 

[takandjive]

How brain damaged are we talking about here? How lucid is this hypothetical person?

As much as your average man is.

Kidding.

Let's say your partner is still positively reacting to your sexual attention, but they're no longer talking/have the mental faculties to initiate sex.

 

[Asguard]

takandjive, it depends in that specific case. I would never want to see a situation where the less impared of an elderly couple was charged with rape because they had sex with there partner of 70 years. It would be compleatly wrong even if the person allegedly raped DID have alzheimer's (or any other form of imparement). An example would be that thread ages ago where the son (i think) delibratly moved his parent (from memory it was the father) who had alzheimer's away from his new partner because he was worried about them having sex, or getting married or whatever which is a compleate and utter abuse of guardianship (im sorry i cant rember the thread i just rember bells and i arguing against the stupidity of it).

it gets more interesting when your talking about a younger couple (for instance the new wife is involved in an MVA and gets an aquired brain injury and the husband comes into the nursing home to have sex with her) in the sence that other people MAY view that as sexual assult. My opinion is i dont know basically.

 

[Asguard]

oh BTW, Dr Lou Natic is that the best you can do?

 

[takandjive]

I feel VERY strongly about this matter. I think in the case you mentioned re. a man with a wife in a nursing home, these are married people. If she's not being hurt or distressed by the sexual experience, people need to buzz off.

I agree that people with a disease/disability need to be protected, though.

 

[Asguard]

i agree, however trying to determine if its abuse or not is more difficult in these situations. For instance what if they arnt married, they just know each other from the nursing home and one of them keeps sneaking into the others room. How do you tell if its abuse or just sex?

ESPECIALLY concidering that you should be allowing these people to do as much as they can rather than putting in place legal road blocks which further restrict there quality of life above and behond what there illness imposes on them.

One of the reasons it gets interesting with younger people is issues relating to pregancy. For instance what if the husband of a pt with an ABI came into the care facility to have sex with her so that he could impregnant her? or the reverse so that she could be impregnated by him. Is this abuse? or is it acceptable? Especially concidering the husband\wife is PROBABLY the person with power of guardianship over the pt and there for the person who actually makes all the medical (as well as social in the case of guardianship) decisions for that person

Care of incopitant pts is never easy

 

[Norsefire]

It's all the more relevant because it is impossible.

I mean, are you seriously suggesting it is ok to have sex with any person who is so drunk that they don't know what they're doing?

What's wrong with you?

Of course I'm not saying it's ok! I even said in my OP that I would find such acts disgusting.

My question was merely, what qualifies as consent? And if consent is not possible, if the partner has no will, then is it rape?

Animals have no will, so is it rape to engage in intercourse with them?

 

[takandjive]

i agree, however trying to determine if its abuse or not is more difficult in these situations. For instance what if they arnt married, they just know each other from the nursing home and one of them keeps sneaking into the others room. How do you tell if its abuse or just sex?

You examine them both physically and psychologically.

One of the reasons it gets interesting with younger people is issues relating to pregancy. For instance what if the husband of a pt with an ABI came into the care facility to have sex with her so that he could impregnant her? or the reverse so that she could be impregnated by him. Is this abuse? or is it acceptable? Especially concidering the husband\wife is PROBABLY the person with power of guardianship over the pt and there for the person who actually makes all the medical (as well as social in the case of guardianship) decisions for that person

Boy, I don't know. I'd have to know the people involved. Chances are, the best intentions are in mind.

Animals have no will, so is it rape to engage in intercourse with them?

Come give my cat a pill and tell me she doesn't have a will.

Having a will or not does not define rape. Even if a ten year old girl wants it, it's rape to take advantage of an innocent like a child or animal.

 

[Asguard]

You examine them both physically and psychologically.

i know im just saying its difficult, alzheimer's causes more than just a direct cognative imparement. Investigating cases of elder abuse even when you realise that if the situation happened it HAS to be abuse isnt easy, let alone these sorts of cases. But its not the investigations which are the hardest but rather the policies which are difficult, ie in cases where one partner is in care (or they are in different levels of care) do you alow them to come in when you know its just for sex? or do you ban it across the board.

Boy, I don't know. I'd have to know the people involved. Chances are, the best intentions are in mind.

the way to hell is pathed with good intentions, seriously though in cases like this its got nothing to do with the intentions of the person but rather what the incapacitated person would want which has to be established.

For instance the courts may rule that its acceptable for a partner to remove a pts sperm after death because the person has no power over what happens to there body (at least in australia, ie for all of you who want to be organ donors, signing the register means nothing, the only decision which matters is what your next of kin wants) but when dealing with a living pt its what THEY would want that matters and determing that is REALLY hard

 

[takandjive]

i know im just saying its difficult, alzheimer's causes more than just a direct cognative imparement. Investigating cases of elder abuse even when you realise that if the situation happened it HAS to be abuse isnt easy, let alone these sorts of cases. But its not the investigations which are the hardest but rather the policies which are difficult, ie in cases where one partner is in care (or they are in different levels of care) do you alow them to come in when you know its just for sex? or do you ban it across the board.

I think there's probably more benefit than harm to be found in maintaining a sex life when you've lost so much else with your spouse.

the way to hell is pathed with good intentions, seriously though in cases like this its got nothing to do with the intentions of the person but rather what the incapacitated person would want which has to be established.

For instance the courts may rule that its acceptable for a partner to remove a pts sperm after death because the person has no power over what happens to there body (at least in australia, ie for all of you who want to be organ donors, signing the register means nothing, the only decision which matters is what your next of kin wants) but when dealing with a living pt its what THEY would want that matters and determing that is REALLY hard

You're right. I don't know, and I think I have too strong feelings on this to be really objective.

 

[Asguard]

its not easy especially setting up policies to cope with situations like this which is why to often its either banned outright or put into the to hard basket. I mean what level of imparement means thats it?

if we take an extreeme example what about a person who is in a PVS? For instance that man in the US who got a court order to remove his wife's feeding tube. What if he had said that as part of the "saying goodbye" proccess he wanted to have sex with her one last time? PERSONALLY i couldnt think of anything worse than trying to have sex with my partner who is such a kinky and exciting lover (even when she is asleep) being just a limp body under me. That wouldnt be the way i would want to rember her but for someone else it might be. However its not wether its discusting or not which we should be judging it based on but rather what that Pt would want.

Say you were compleatly catatonic and unable to communicate at all, and your partner at the time came in, said hi, fucked you, said goodbye and left and all this time your still in your head screaming (personally i HATE the idea of being in a PVS if you cant tell). Would you want this or not?

Now lets make it more complicated, what if they were delaying turning off the ventalator (or whatever else is nessary to let you die) because the got there weekly fuck still? Would that be acceptable to you or not?

 

[takandjive]

Asgard, I'm going to take a raincheck on this because it's personally upsetting the shit out of me.