Is God not responsible for everything?
- Thread starter Mrhero54
- Start date
This is a particularly difficult point for some
Strangely, Mr Hero, this is a particularly difficult issue for some. Chrisitans, for instance, are constantly seeking to excuse God from the bad things in the Universe, and as a result have deified the idea of Satan.
In the end, though, what it comes down to is that no matter what an evangelist says about God being all-powerful, he or she is lying to you, because very few Christians believe that God is omnipotent. It makes them feel better, apparently, to pretend that Satan exists, although the Scriptural development of Satan is spotty insofar as it generally does not support what most Chrisitans express about the Devil.
The second page and following of the topic Islam - Terrorism, Inc contains a splinter within the topic that discusses God's role in things.
What is Satan? is a topic that's over a year old, but it's something to look at.
What is Satan? is a companion topic, a response topic, to the prior topic of the same name.
Either God is evil and omnipotentm or he is evil and maybe not omnipontent is a slanted, old topic trying to cover some of the same ground as the present.
Why God allows evil to exist? is yet another topic dealing with the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God and issues of evil.
God is evil or having limited power?
What does God have to hide?
Why God sucks
Nature of evil vs. the World
If God is or isn't ...?
All of these links so far come from Sciforums discussions. I must be careful to mark their significance:
(1) "God and evil" is a recurring theme here at Sciforums
(2) As you would see if you drove yourself nuts reading all of those topics, fundamental issues within Christianity seem to be at stake
(3) The topics generally restrict themselves to Judeo-Christian considerations
(4) It appears to be a very difficult consideration for some
None of this should be taken as discouraging this topic. In fact, I celebrate this topic. The issue, clearly, has never seen any sort of resolution or consensus that does not depend on "party lines" of fundamental assumptions (e.g. "God doesn't exist," "Whosoever believeth in me ....")
Though I owe my fellow posters a respite from my constant harping on the points you'll find dotted throughout those topics (I don't expect anyone to read them all; it's just a "sampler"), I hope it will be enough if I simply include my two cents:
- An omnipotent God is a conditional impossibility if God does not bear responsibility for evil occurring in the Universe.
I'm waiting, incidentally, for Saddam Hussein to rally the troops by claiming, "We've already won." (It's a longer joke to explain than it's worth at present, but I may have to account for it before this topic is done.)
I'm hoping the present topic will bring new ideas for vigorous discussion.
:m:,
Tiassa
Strangely, Mr Hero, this is a particularly difficult issue for some. Chrisitans, for instance, are constantly seeking to excuse God from the bad things in the Universe, and as a result have deified the idea of Satan.
In the end, though, what it comes down to is that no matter what an evangelist says about God being all-powerful, he or she is lying to you, because very few Christians believe that God is omnipotent. It makes them feel better, apparently, to pretend that Satan exists, although the Scriptural development of Satan is spotty insofar as it generally does not support what most Chrisitans express about the Devil.
The second page and following of the topic Islam - Terrorism, Inc contains a splinter within the topic that discusses God's role in things.
What is Satan? is a topic that's over a year old, but it's something to look at.
What is Satan? is a companion topic, a response topic, to the prior topic of the same name.
Either God is evil and omnipotentm or he is evil and maybe not omnipontent is a slanted, old topic trying to cover some of the same ground as the present.
Why God allows evil to exist? is yet another topic dealing with the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God and issues of evil.
God is evil or having limited power?
What does God have to hide?
Why God sucks
Nature of evil vs. the World
If God is or isn't ...?
All of these links so far come from Sciforums discussions. I must be careful to mark their significance:
(1) "God and evil" is a recurring theme here at Sciforums
(2) As you would see if you drove yourself nuts reading all of those topics, fundamental issues within Christianity seem to be at stake
(3) The topics generally restrict themselves to Judeo-Christian considerations
(4) It appears to be a very difficult consideration for some
None of this should be taken as discouraging this topic. In fact, I celebrate this topic. The issue, clearly, has never seen any sort of resolution or consensus that does not depend on "party lines" of fundamental assumptions (e.g. "God doesn't exist," "Whosoever believeth in me ....")
Though I owe my fellow posters a respite from my constant harping on the points you'll find dotted throughout those topics (I don't expect anyone to read them all; it's just a "sampler"), I hope it will be enough if I simply include my two cents:
- An omnipotent God is a conditional impossibility if God does not bear responsibility for evil occurring in the Universe.
I'm waiting, incidentally, for Saddam Hussein to rally the troops by claiming, "We've already won." (It's a longer joke to explain than it's worth at present, but I may have to account for it before this topic is done.)
I'm hoping the present topic will bring new ideas for vigorous discussion.
:m:,
Tiassa
Re: Is God not responsible for Human Suffering?
God provided the means and the humans created their usage and applications!
Creating everything doesn’t automatically imply responsible for everything, does it? The parents of Hitler were not responsible for what the son turned out to be, were they?
God provided the means and the humans created their usage and applications!
Warning: Tired, old, and over-done arguement:
"The parents of Hitler were not responsible for what the son turned out to be, were they?"
Did the parents of Hitler know exactly when they were having sex that their child would become the killer of 6 million Jews and the starter of WWII? Did they know their son would later be seen as the rather cliche, but apparent definition of evil?
No?
Well, there's where you analogy fails miserably. See - an omnipotent god, well, he would know this kind of shit.
"The parents of Hitler were not responsible for what the son turned out to be, were they?"
Did the parents of Hitler know exactly when they were having sex that their child would become the killer of 6 million Jews and the starter of WWII? Did they know their son would later be seen as the rather cliche, but apparent definition of evil?
No?
Well, there's where you analogy fails miserably. See - an omnipotent god, well, he would know this kind of shit.
God, by definition, would be imnipotent, and omnisentient. It's the second one we care about. He has knowledge that we don't.
How can you have a test without wrong answers? Free will is an important part of the Plan of Salvation. In order for it to function properly, you have to have at least two choices. And you have to have someone wispering th ewrong answer in one ear to counter the vioce wispering the right answer in the other.
How can you have a test without wrong answers? Free will is an important part of the Plan of Salvation. In order for it to function properly, you have to have at least two choices. And you have to have someone wispering th ewrong answer in one ear to counter the vioce wispering the right answer in the other.
If there is a God, then he is the creator of all, correct? Even the creator of Satan, so Satan can't really take the blame away from God. But I don't see it as blame. Without evil to contrast good, there would be nothing. If there were no black, would we have a name for white? If there were no cold, would we recognize hot? So God is responsible for evil, because he is responsible for variety. If there were no evil, there would only be good. And it would not be appreciated or valued. There would be no alternative. And it would lose all it's worth.
First, free will is an illusion. God knows which (to use your metaphor) person you will listen to. If it is the wrong person, regardless if it is your own decision, God knew this when he was creating you, therefore he knew you would make bad decisions and end up in hell.
Second if this world is a test, then it is decidely unfair, so how can God in good conscience, hold someone accountable for failing a difficult and unfair test?
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
uh, uh...no way...you can't answer a question with a question. it's stated in the rule-book.
Christian posits free will and says humans are directly responsible for most human sufferning. Argument ensues.
Why don't we skip that and get into the real question, forget moral ethical evil which is caused by personal free agents, lets focus on natural evil. It cannot be attributed to some fall as such a story is clearly mythical and non-historical. Natural evil, also, cannot be dismissed as the work or personal free agents.
Vinnie
Why don't we skip that and get into the real question, forget moral ethical evil which is caused by personal free agents, lets focus on natural evil. It cannot be attributed to some fall as such a story is clearly mythical and non-historical. Natural evil, also, cannot be dismissed as the work or personal free agents.
Vinnie
I'd just like to point out one thing
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming God is responsible for evil. However, for an individual to believe all evil is God's fault, it should stand to reason that the individual also believes inGod . If that individual believes in God and holds God responsible for evil, that in and of itself might be considered a good thing, for at least they are in a relationship with God and are trying to understand God's ways. You are feeling God in your anger, bewilderment and frustration. You can also feel God when you're happy, content and at peace with the world.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not claiming God is responsible for evil. However, for an individual to believe all evil is God's fault, it should stand to reason that the individual also believes inGod . If that individual believes in God and holds God responsible for evil, that in and of itself might be considered a good thing, for at least they are in a relationship with God and are trying to understand God's ways. You are feeling God in your anger, bewilderment and frustration. You can also feel God when you're happy, content and at peace with the world.
"uh, uh...no way...you can't answer a question with a question. it's stated in the rule-book"
Now I may be taking Vinnie out of context, but I believe all he was trying to do was get the poster to elaborate. Saying "okay, and if you're right....what does that mean?" is not an attempt to answer a question with a question - it is an attempt to make the post think things through.
Now I may be taking Vinnie out of context, but I believe all he was trying to do was get the poster to elaborate. Saying "okay, and if you're right....what does that mean?" is not an attempt to answer a question with a question - it is an attempt to make the post think things through.
Since when is it wrong to have high standards?
And how exactly does knowing the ending before the action, nullify the freewill of the action? Can criminals say that they had no free will because the cops set up a sting? Obviously not a perfect analogy, but the idea is there. While god may know what we do, we're still the ones who make the decision.
And what if god is responsible for all evil... so what? God is responsible for all good too. Maybe god holds the opinion that bad actions can be made up with good actions, and in holding that opinion IT BECOMES SO. Bah, god is incomprehensible.
Originally posted by Aldah
Since when is it wrong to have high standards?
And how exactly does knowing the ending before the action, nullify the freewill of the action? Can criminals say that they had no free will because the cops set up a sting? Obviously not a perfect analogy, but the idea is there. While god may know what we do, we're still the ones who make the decision.
And what if god is responsible for all evil... so what? God is responsible for all good too. Maybe god holds the opinion that bad actions can be made up with good actions, and in holding that opinion IT BECOMES SO. Bah, god is incomprehensible.
Well. Adulah I'm working from the perspective of a Western God (all-powerful, all-knowning, all-good)
An all knowing god knows all the decisions an individual will make during his life before he creates them. Thus a person might be debating wheter to chose a or b, and god knows they will chose b. A person felt like they could choose a but if they did then god would have be wrong in his all-knowing knowledge. They really couldn't have chosesn b because it was predetermined Thus they only have the illusion of free will.
This doesn't me squat if your not of a Judeo/Christian/Islamic mind set, but if you are then anybody in hell is there because god wants/created them to be.
There was also a choice made in heaven, before we ca me down here. Basically, it was this, or Satan's plan which would would make everybody go to heaven, and the reason you're here is that you made a choice before you came, and it's possible some people came down anyway, even though they knew they probably wouldn't make the right choice.