Is God a tyrant? (If he exists)

[Jenyar]

Oh, this is one of my favorites! The if-you-don't-find-the-Bible-inspiring-how-can-you-find-inspiration-anywhere? argument. So, let me get this straight. Having trouble with a God who repeatedly commits large scale atrocities is comparable to letting "one untasteful event" ruin one's life? Oh, please. The problem is not that the Bible includes distasteful events - it's that God endorses/causes many of them.

I think you've mistaken my argument for another one. I mean for instance if your dad does something you don't agree with, will you hate him forever no matter what else he does or did? You apply a kind of reasoning to God that you don't apply in your life.

The inconsistency here seems to be that you and heart interpret those events differently than the people they happened to (and who recorded them), as if you had in the meantime gained knowledge about God that they didn't have. God was their God, their Father. Did they complain He was unreasonable to save them out of slavery by destroying the Egyptian army? But they complained loudly when He gave them over to their sins when they started worshipping other gods. They experienced life without God, and they experienced it as punishment.

The reason that these stumbling blocks are so large is that God's sovereignity extends to his whole creation: all of mankind. They have a universal effect (like the flood). Everybody is under judgment and are experiencing what life without God is like, but very few people are willing to accept the good from Him. It's like you're throwing a tantrum - you won't accept His love because His punishment was so harsh. yet you never stop to think on which side of the fence you're on.

We are thoroughly acquainted with suffering on earth - for the most part, we can take it, because we don't expect nature to treat us as if we're made of porcelain. But when disasters happen, like brutal wars, great floods or accidents, we become polarized. Either God makes it happen (the view the Israelites took), they're just unfortunate realities of life, or we have some part in them. Why? In my opinion, all three are equally true, part of the same reality. I don't lose my faith every time a family member dies, or every time a war breaks out that claims innocent lives - because I know that nature and unjust people don't discriminate in who they kill. God doesn't condone those disasters, He saves us from them. He spares us while we're alive, and when we die He will raise us again.

What sucks the joy out of life is fear - being trapped. Other religions don't hold the promise of life within God's kingdom. They place me outside it, perpetually trying to get in. Of course you're not feeling trapped - you're not trying to get in at all. To you, freedom is being content with not knowing and just being who you are. But I'm not convinced who I am now is all I will ever be and that's it, recognized or not. Nothing in life convinces me of that. Even evolution suggests otherwise: something is being established. We call it life, even while we have no idea what "life" is, where it comes from or where it's supposed to be going. Are we the experiment, or the control group?

 

[heart]

Are you saying we should make excuses for god and overlook the things he has done? You think we only see this brutal side because we are on opposite sides of the fence as you? Look at it this way-

Joe Blow is a preacher and all around great guy. He is well respected and looked up to- often others seek his advice as he is also known for his wisdom. Joe has a passion for lost souls and therefore witnesses all the time- his dedication is outstanding, which accounts for the growth of the church.

Would you let Joe Blow watch your child for the day as you ran errands and whatnot? After all he seems like a great man, huh? Joe's wife thought the world of him as well- she witnessed first hand how he talked a man out of committing suicide and leading him to god, how he lead a food drive to feed the poor of the community, he even took in a homeless family for a six months, helping them to get jobs, and obtaining a house of their own. Because of all the good Joe had done- his wife had kept a detail from the church, not to mention the proper authorities. That detail being he is a pedophile. I ask you again, Jenyar, would you allow Joe Blow to watch your child or would you overlook that detail because of all the good Joe does?

 

[JustARide]

I think you've mistaken my argument for another one. I mean for instance if your dad does something you don't agree with, will you hate him forever no matter what else he does or did? You apply a kind of reasoning to God that you don't apply in your life.

I understood your "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" argument just fine. Here's how this works: If my father disagreed with me about when I should take out the garbage, yes, I'd easily forgive him. If he murdered my mom, however, I might have some long-term trouble.

The inconsistency here seems to be that you and heart interpret those events differently than the people they happened to (and who recorded them), as if you had in the meantime gained knowledge about God that they didn't have. God was their God, their Father. Did they complain He was unreasonable to save them out of slavery by destroying the Egyptian army? But they complained loudly when He gave them over to their sins when they started worshipping other gods. They experienced life without God, and they experienced it as punishment.

First of all, you do not know for sure who recorded the events. Secondly, interpretation by parties involved in events should be examined in light of the beliefs of the party. Talk to bin Laden about 9/11 and you will hear that "Allah helped the terrorists crush the evil infidels." Hear it from a NYC policeman and you'll likely get an entirely different story. Assuming bin Laden was more directly involved in the attacks, should that lend more credence to his version or, rather, taint it?

What sucks the joy out of life is fear - being trapped. Other religions don't hold the promise of life within God's kingdom. They place me outside it, perpetually trying to get in. Of course you're not feeling trapped - you're not trying to get in at all. To you, freedom is being content with not knowing and just being who you are. But I'm not convinced who I am now is all I will ever be and that's it, recognized or not. Nothing in life convinces me of that. Even evolution suggests otherwise: something is being established. We call it life, even while we have no idea what "life" is, where it comes from or where it's supposed to be going. Are we the experiment, or the control group?

Look, this is where personal taste comes into play. I know you find it impossible to understand why someone might chose the promises of any other religion over Christianity. The Bible simply happens to promise you what you want out of your life/afterlife. To some, the Buddhist idea of Nirvana describes their ideal goal. Others simply want to be one with the "Tao" and at peace with the knowledge of the universe. Takes all kinds. If you think Christianity should appeal to everyone as it does to you, you're living in a dream world.

By the way, I am not content to simply "be myself," although I find being true to myself is a lot more rewarding that accepting the "official" truth as set out by someone else. I am on a journey. I do think it leads somewhere, although not neccessarily to an "end" per se. James Carse's "Finite and Infinite Games" gives a good summary of my philosophy. People mostly prefer finite games where everything must end, winners win and losers lose, until finally every dispute as been settled and every wrong righted (if that's a word). Organized religion falls into the category of "finite games" because it seeks a final end - one that will make all play cease forever.

Infinite players are the opposite; they play not to end the game, but simply to continue it. As you said, we seem to be moving, changing, altering our perceptions day by day. Religion is the force that tries to stop this evolution, to enforce rigid moral standards, to set defined rules at every turn, and to pre-envision our personal and collective fates. But there are games that are potentially infinite, and those are what I find most inspiring for exactly the reason religionists find them abhorrent: they seek continuation.

Politics, marriage, sports, religion, and war are all played with an end goal in mind. Music, art, and true science have infinite capacity. Beethoven did not write symphonies to end all symphonies, or to bring symphony-writing to a close; he wrote to continue, to enlarge, to expand the possibilites of music. Is it crime to wish for these things to continue? Must everything end with winners, losers, and a final verdict for you to be happy?

I am content not knowing because... *drum roll*.... I don't know! I accept life as it comes. To do otherwise would be to pretend that I know more than I do. Just as you have likely accepted that science is valuable but does not sufficiently explain the universe, so have I accepted, for the time being anyway, that religion does not either. But I put no claim on the future... after all, why would anyone want to?

From the last page of "Finite and Infinite Games," which, incidently, has many great things to say about the story of Jesus and its ability to inspire:

It is not necessary for infinite players to be Christians; indeed it is not possible for them to be Christians--seriously. Neither is it possible for them to be Buddhists, or Muslims, or atheists, or New Yorkers--seriously. All such titles can only be playful abstractions, mere performances for the sake of laughter.​

Ever wonder why great stories seem to lose their flavor - their mystery - when someone comes along and "explains" everything? The vitality of the Bible, or any other story that continues to resonate with people, is not in deducing all the facts and the correct interpretations of every detail, but in marveling at how the stories themselves can be reinvented or reimagined... infinitely. That aspect of religion interests me. Unyielding literal belief in a big, angry, sword-swinging patriarch in the sky does not.

Infinite possibilities exist in this universe. We accept some conclusions (gravity, the world as spheroid, etc.) for the sake of convenience, in order to live our lives. Looking at how much the world has changed in our relatively brief span of existence, how many preconceptions we have shattered (and will shatter again), I find it quite premature to lay claim to any truth about things of pure speculation. Stopping the search now is tantamount to a kindergartener learning 2+2=4 and proclaiming, "OK, you can stop teaching now! I know everything about math."


Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks

 

[MarcAC]

Are you saying we should make excuses for god and overlook the things he has done? You think we only see this brutal side because we are on opposite sides of the fence as you? Look at it this way-

Sorry to chime in but... Come on... be reasonable... have a heart. We should overlook nothing God has done... how else will we experience His goodness and majesty?

Would you let Joe Blow watch your child for the day as you ran errands and whatnot? After all he seems like a great man, huh? Joe's wife thought the world of him as well- she witnessed first hand how he talked a man out of committing suicide and leading him to god, how he lead a food drive to feed the poor of the community, he even took in a homeless family for a six months, helping them to get jobs, and obtaining a house of their own. Because of all the good Joe had done- his wife had kept a detail from the church, not to mention the proper authorities. That detail being he is a pedophile. I ask you again, Jenyar, would you allow Joe Blow to watch your child or would you overlook that detail because of all the good Joe does?

Though you try... this Joe Blow character is still one sided. He's a pedophile... so clearly you would not leave him alone with your child... barring ignorance of the fact... or just a sssick head... but has Joe Blow done anything good for children? Of course I'd surely let him talk some guy out of a suicide... and lead him to God... once that guy finds God... no matter who Joe is... the guy won't turn back. So how does Joe relate to God anyway?

You say God is a child murderer... many ways to look at it... in fact [not sure if this has been posted already]... hey if you look at the fact that humans die everyday... God kills people everyday then right? Crap... He murders everyone... Hey! He murdered my dog!!! Grrrr. But wait... people are born everyday... children they are... in fact... looking at population growth... I'd say more children are born and live than all those who die... wow... 100,000 to 6,000,000,000. I guess God is doing all that too... hmmm. But then... boy... if things didn't die... the world would be one hell of a place... unless we could move out into space... whiiich we haven't really done as yet. Maybe God has some idea of what over-population does... hunger... crime... and death until the population is at a sustainable level.

You know... I'd like to mention one very interesting occurence in the Bible...
So Moses in Exodus 32:11-14 successfully convinces God to spare the Isrealites...
then...
Exodus 32:26-29 26. So Moses stood at the gate of the camp and shouted, "Everyone who is on the Lord's side come over here!"
Then the men of the Levi trieb gathered around Moses, 27. and he said to them, "The Lord God of Israel commands you to strap on your swords and go through the camp, killing your relatives, your friends, and your neighbours."
28. The men of the Levi tribe followed his orders and, and that day they killed about three thousand men. 29. Moses said to them, "You obeyed the Lord and did what was right..."
Now was that God or Moses?

Given our present condition... death is necessary... and inevitable... baby/elderly no matter how you look at it...

 

[JustARide]

Given our present condition... death is necessary... and inevitable... baby/elderly no matter how you look at it...

So, once again the question arises. If God is ultimate judge and death is inevitable, why not forget all these murder laws? After all, we're all going to die anyway.

I love how Christians cannot fathom an alternative point of view about their faith or religion in general, but when it comes to something as specific as child murder in the OT, suddenly it's "all in how you look at it."

Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks

 

[Jenyar]

So, once again the question arises. If God is ultimate judge and death is inevitable, why not forget all these murder laws? After all, we're all going to die anyway.

Unless God found some way to make us part of a life apart from our inevitable death.

Being sincere, or at peace with this world, doesn't change the fact that your doomed to die. You can't change that no matter how good or happy you are. It's when you suffer undeservingly that you realize it best.

Heart explained quite well why finality is necessary. Because infinite games can't ever judge - they never conclude. Evil is a finite game, and needs to be judged on a finite level, but that doesn't detract from the infinite consequences of being judged finally. You can never conclude someone is a pedophile until you have evidence that he acted on it, and you can never conclude he will stay one until he has failed to recover under psychological treatment. But death concludes everything - it seals our fate.

You can learn about maths all your life without ever knowing everything. That doesn't mean you can't know enough to have faith that some principles are fixed. Infinite possibilities do not exclude reaching decisions, in fact, just knowing 2+2=4 is already a conclusion. "It is finished", yet remains infinitely valid.

 

[MarcAC]

So, once again the question arises. If God is ultimate judge and death is inevitable, why not forget all these murder laws? After all, we're all going to die anyway.

And let mayhem reign? Let Hitlers, Bin Ladens, Chucky's, and Damion's run wild and reduce the population to nil? One point I think you made was that there had to be some balance right? It's not black and white. That was another point you made.

I love how Christians cannot fathom an alternative point of view about their faith or religion in general, but when it comes to something as specific as child murder in the OT, suddenly it's "all in how you look at it."

And where exactly do you see that 'inability to fathom' displayed? Certainly not on this thread... but if so pleease point it out and be specific... I'd like to see where exactly I displayed the 'inability to fathom'... or anyone else... not seeing you didn't see it... but that would not have been my intent.

 

[heart]

Sorry to chime in but... Come on... be reasonable... have a heart. We should overlook nothing God has done... how else will we experience His goodness and majesty?

I do not find it a good thing to kill babies or children. Not only did your god do this, he commanded that children be dashed into pieces before their parents eyes. I mean come on, killing them wasn't good enough for him- he wanted it done in a most brutal way.

You can paint all kinds of pictures and make all the excuses in the world, but you cannot take away the fact that it is in black and white in the Bible. I can't help but feel that when Christians try to avoid the subject of the brutality of god, or when they make excuses why it's okay for him to have done it- that their thinking is no different than those who supported Saddam Hussein or Hitler- Reason being is because they have this mindset that whatever the person they support/worship does, is okay.

Though you try... this Joe Blow character is still one sided. He's a pedophile... so clearly you would not leave him alone with your child... barring ignorance of the fact... or just a sssick head... but has Joe Blow done anything good for children? Of course I'd surely let him talk some guy out of a suicide... and lead him to God... once that guy finds God... no matter who Joe is... the guy won't turn back. So how does Joe relate to God anyway?

I was trying to make a point with Jenyar. It seemed he was saying because the biblical god did all this good that his brutality should be overlooked. I think you made my point- some facts just can't be excused or dismissed.

You say God is a child murderer... many ways to look at it... in fact [not sure if this has been posted already]... hey if you look at the fact that humans die everyday... God kills people everyday then right? Crap... He murders everyone... Hey! He murdered my dog!!! Grrrr. But wait... people are born everyday... children they are... in fact... looking at population growth... I'd say more children are born and live than all those who die... wow... 100,000 to 6,000,000,000. I guess God is doing all that too... hmmm. But then... boy... if things didn't die... the world would be one hell of a place... unless we could move out into space... whiiich we haven't really done as yet. Maybe God has some idea of what over-population does... hunger... crime... and death until the population is at a sustainable level.

Someone dying in an accident or from illness is quite different than god saying, "dash the children into pieces before their parents eyes". Talk about cruel and heartless.

You know... I'd like to mention one very interesting occurence in the Bible...
So Moses in Exodus 32:11-14 successfully convinces God to spare the Isrealites...
then...
Exodus 32:26-29 26. So Moses stood at the gate of the camp and shouted, "Everyone who is on the Lord's side come over here!"
Then the men of the Levi trieb gathered around Moses, 27. and he said to them, "The Lord God of Israel commands you to strap on your swords and go through the camp, killing your relatives, your friends, and your neighbours."
28. The men of the Levi tribe followed his orders and, and that day they killed about three thousand men. 29. Moses said to them, "You obeyed the Lord and did what was right..."

First, Moses disobeyed god by not leaving him alone as god asked. Yet, when Uzzah disobeyed god, god killed him. So god plays favorites, what's new?

 

[JustARide]

And let mayhem reign? Let Hitlers, Bin Ladens, Chucky's, and Damion's run wild and reduce the population to nil? One point I think you made was that there had to be some balance right? It's not black and white. That was another point you made.And where exactly do you see that 'inability to fathom' displayed? Certainly not on this thread... but if so pleease point it out and be specific... I'd like to see where exactly I displayed the 'inability to fathom'... or anyone else... not seeing you didn't see it... but that would not have been my intent.

It was a rhetorical question, MarcAC, meant to point out the flaw in your argument that death is just an inevitable, natural result of life and so we should not be so judgmental when God decides to kill innocent babies. The point is: we are making some kind of attempt at justice on earth, however flawed, and so it is part of our nature, as semi-civilized people, to be shocked by the taking of innocent lives, whether by man or man's many "gods."

What I meant by the common Christian "inability to fathom" is that, when I ask most Christians the following questions, I usually get the same reply (Jenyar answered with the majority when I questioned him as well.) It goes like this:

1. Do you admit that you have limited capacity as a human being, do not always perceieve correctly, or more generally, that you make mistakes? Simply put, are you perfect or fallible?

Here, Christians usually answer yes, they are fallible. (And I get a mini-lecture on how Jesus was the only infallible man... unless the person I'm talking with happens to be a flaming Catholic, in which case, the Pope might qualify as semi-infallible.)​

2. Now, do you admit that you could be wrong about religion?

The answer to this question usually shows the true colors of Christians because, though they just announced their own fallibility, they cannot admit to even the possibility that Christianity is incorrect, incomplete, or even misinterpreted. Call it divine knowledge, faith, or simply a "gut" feeling. Whatever the case, if the Christian answers no to #2, then they clearly cannot fathom religious alternatives (that is, that anything else could be true). They already "know" the truth - no further investigation required.​

You see this in Christian movie reviews as well. I've been reading some "Christian" views on "The Passion of the Christ" (which I've seen) and what fascinates me about them is that they actually review the film with an eye for all aspects of filmmaking: editing, cinematography, lighting, subtext, etc. Now, normally when I read Christian reviews of any secular film, all they review is the content, providing a long list of every curse word, violent act, and hint of drug use.

Of course, "The Passion" is an extremely explicit R-rated film with violence that rivals, if not exceeds, the usual violence quota - something religious reviews would normally slam. But Christian reviewers are managing to do the one thing they hardly ever do with any non-Jesus-related film (no matter how artistic); they recognize the context of the violence, along with the artistry that can exist in film! But go read a Christian review of "2001: A Space Odyssey" or "Mulholland Drive." There will likely be little to no mention of the artistry, the craft behind these films, and probably no attempt to realize context either. It will simply be, "This film depicts a view of evolution we don't like," or "This film shows a nude body, therefore it is bad."

Reviews of "The Passion" show that Christians are capable of discerning more than simply the content of a film, but it seems they only exercise that talent when it comes to films that they construe as being completely in line with all of their beliefs.

Me? I actually thought parts of "The Passion" were well done, and though I do not have a literal belief in the Bible, I could appreciate it as a work of film. It's a fun byproduct of keeping an open mind - one can be inspired by things that one might not even agree with. It's quite rewarding going into experiences ready for a surprise rather than preparing to judge.

And, as the once-funny Dennis Miller used to say, "That's just my opinion. I could be wrong."

Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks

 

[JustARide]

Unless God found some way to make us part of a life apart from our inevitable death.

Being sincere, or at peace with this world, doesn't change the fact that your doomed to die. You can't change that no matter how good or happy you are. It's when you suffer undeservingly that you realize it best.

Heart explained quite well why finality is necessary. Because infinite games can't ever judge - they never conclude. Evil is a finite game, and needs to be judged on a finite level, but that doesn't detract from the infinite consequences of being judged finally. You can never conclude someone is a pedophile until you have evidence that he acted on it, and you can never conclude he will stay one until he has failed to recover under psychological treatment. But death concludes everything - it seals our fate.

Well, it's a fun little paradox, isn't it? You believe in eternal life - life that lasts forever - but you believe this is impossible without making final judgments upon beings that supposedly posess free will. Sure, death is the finality of life, but you don't believe that. You believe it's just the door though which we enter a new, eternal life. Infinite games can indeed judge; they can punish, but they also have the power to reform. Most punishments are not final, in fact; they stay in place only until a lesson is learned and change occurs. Granted, some people may never learn - but that is no guarantee that no one will.

If you believe all earthly crimes must have final judgments in the afterlife, you must believe one of the following things:

Either

1. People in the afterlife are incapable of change. Free will is forever suspended.​

or...

2. God either does not care or has simply turned a deaf ear to those who could or have changed in the afterlife.​

If fact, what you are envisioning seems kind of odd: an eternity that somehow has, effectively, a conclusion. Let's say Armageddon happens and God finally gets everybody duly rewarded and punished. Now nothing will ever have to change again. Everything will be set, eternally. It might as well be that everything is simply blown out of existence back to nothing. The universe, God, and us are all static now - unchanging and fixed. But that is God's choice, not ours. God could allow for free will in the afterlife, could allow people who were once condemned to realize their sin, to change, to see the proverbial light (in an environment where people will actually have a way of knowing whether or not God exists, and what his will is).

Eternity itself requires no finality - only that it continue. That is the definition of eternity. People are NOT the same as mathmatic equations. Equations have no will. 2+2=4 may stay the same forever because it is a principle, but unless the afterlife immediately robs you of any free will whatsoever, then I see no reason why a person must be the same forever and, as a result, punished forever in the same fashion.

Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks

 

[Jenyar]

But that's exact;y what happens: God establishes the principle with final judgment. After that, there will be no more judgement, because evil will be contained! It isn't possible to imagine that in a physical universe, but spiritually is another matter. But in the immediate presence of God and the absence of temptation, I believe it will even be a physical reality as well. Free will and all. Those purified from evil will have a new nature, after all - they will be "beyond suspicion".

PS. The Bible equates God's judgment with a "fire". His final judgement won't be "final" in a temporal sense, but final eternally. That's what the concept of hell implies. It's something so final that it's valid eternally - a principle.

 

[JustARide]

But that's exact;y what happens: God establishes the principle with final judgment. After that, there will be no more judgement, because evil will be contained! It isn't possible to imagine that in a physical universe, but spiritually is another matter. But in the immediate presence of God and the absence of temptation, I believe it will even be a physical reality as well. Free will and all. Those purified from evil will have a new nature, after all - they will be "beyond suspicion".

PS. The Bible equates God's judgment with a "fire". His final judgement won't be "final" in a temporal sense, but final eternally. That's what the concept of hell implies. It's something so final that it's valid eternally - a principle.

Right and what I'm saying is that is Christianity's addition, not some logical necessity. Look, either people have free will in the afterlife or they do not. If you believe they do, you must believe in the capacity for people to change there. And if people can change in the afterlife, it follows that final judgment ignores that capacity for change.

After all, God can make up any rules he wants, correct? He is not forever tied to some external authority, some outside plan he must follow.

As for free will, you seem to be saying that the negative aspects are a must on Earth because that's what validates our faith (suffering strengthens us) and it is important that people have the will to reject God, otherwise accepting God means nothing. In the afterlife though, you seem to be saying true free will (the ability to REBEL or REFORM) will be rather pointless as none of us will have the desire to do either. But that is a large presumption - one not supported even by religious consensus. Even angels, it is believed, somehow had the ability to "rebel" against God.

Final judgment is a Christian requirement on eternity, not necessarily one that must exist. Even if Hell is a principle, it is one God created and obviously has the power to destroy if he so wishes (unless you believe he is bound by some outside covenant). Equations, heaven, hell, etc. can all be eternal principles if you like, but I see no reason why people must be lumped in that category. You've said it yourself; we can change. And, unless I missed the point, that kinda why God created us in the first place.

Josh

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks

 

[MarcAC]

It was a rhetorical question, MarcAC, meant to point out the flaw in your argument that death is just an inevitable, natural result of life and so we should not be so judgmental when God decides to kill innocent babies.

If you interpreted that "and so" as my point... you misinterpreted. Anyway, we cannot be judgemental towards God (the ultimate judge?)... what's the point?

The point is: we are making some kind of attempt at justice on earth, however flawed, and so it is part of our nature, as semi-civilized people, to be shocked by the taking of innocent lives, whether by man or man's many "gods."

Of course it is part of our nature to be shocked by such atrocities. You're human... it could've been you. However, as it seems we should both agree on this point... which was my intended point... the innocent die daily.. and daily even more are born... you can choose to focus on whichever aspect of that continuum you wish. I focus on both... but I see the overall good.... you on the other hand seem to focus on what you perceive as the overall negative. Well, whatever get's us through the night right?

What I meant by the common Christian "inability to fathom" is that, when I ask most Christians the following questions, I usually get the same reply (Jenyar answered with the majority when I questioned him as well.) It goes like this:

1. Do you admit that you have limited capacity as a human being, do not always perceieve correctly, or more generally, that you make mistakes? Simply put, are you perfect or fallible?

Here, Christians usually answer yes, they are fallible. (And I get a mini-lecture on how Jesus was the only infallible man... unless the person I'm talking with happens to be a flaming Catholic, in which case, the Pope might qualify as semi-infallible.)​

2. Now, do you admit that you could be wrong about religion?

The answer to this question usually shows the true colors of Christians because, though they just announced their own fallibility, they cannot admit to even the possibility that Christianity is incorrect, incomplete, or even misinterpreted. Call it divine knowledge, faith, or simply a "gut" feeling. Whatever the case, if the Christian answers no to #2, then they clearly cannot fathom religious alternatives (that is, that anything else could be true). They already "know" the truth - no further investigation required.​

And again... Through faith... you are sure of what you believe... of course you admit... if you have some agnostic tendency that you might be wrong about everything. But guess what? I have faith that I'm right... and I will stick with my belief until you can conclusively prove otherwise. As far as I'm concerned God is beyond the concept of conclusive proof. So the issue will remain unresolved... it's only a matter of faith... and again... if I'm wrong in the end... so be it... if I'm right... it's 'just a ride' to heaven... for me..

 

[MarcAC]

I do not find it a good thing to kill babies or children. Not only did your god do this, he commanded that children be dashed into pieces before their parents eyes. I mean come on, killing them wasn't good enough for him- he wanted it done in a most brutal way.

Yeah... me neither... but anyway... if you read my post to the Hick Guy... I posted the same thing I would here... you have your view... I have mine... in the end who's right...? Through my faith I know it'll be me... but human knowledge isn't all that great... so... we'll see.

You can paint all kinds of pictures and make all the excuses in the world, but you cannot take away the fact that it is in black and white in the Bible.

I haven't made any excuses for anything... I've just put forward some premises... you see it how you wish... and well it'll seem black and white if you read it that way.... doesn't seem that way to me... oh well... whatever.

I can't help but feel that when Christians try to avoid the subject of the brutality of god, or when they make excuses why it's okay for him to have done it- that their thinking is no different than those who supported Saddam Hussein or Hitler- Reason being is because they have this mindset that whatever the person they support/worship does, is okay.

Maybe... O.k.... soooo if we decide to rebel like say... you?... We can just kill God and lock him away like any Hitler and Bin Laden right? I don't avoid the subject of God's brutality... I embrace it as a fact of life... I respect it. You go on and on and argue about what God does... how about proposing some altenatives?

I was trying to make a point with Jenyar. It seemed he was saying because the biblical god did all this good that his brutality should be overlooked. I think you made my point- some facts just can't be excused or dismissed.

All facts can be dismissed... does a blind man have to believe the Sun is a star... and there's a moon... or any such visual stimuli? It all depends on who you are...

Someone dying in an accident or from illness is quite different than god saying, "dash the children into pieces before their parents eyes". Talk about cruel and heartless.

You know what I see as cruel and heartless?... Focusing on one perceived negative aspect of God's character and using it to advocate your argument that God is some Hitler... defaming the character of the one who you should be grateful to for being here... but as the Hick Guy says... whatever get's you through the night.

First, Moses disobeyed god by not leaving him alone as god asked. Yet, when Uzzah disobeyed god, god killed him. So god plays favorites, what's new?

I see it this way... God doesn't see things in black and white.

 

[MarcAC]

Oh... one thing... no one is gauranteed 'just a ride' to heaven. Christian... or whatever. I live my life true to what I believe is God's message to me. If in the end that's not it... well... I tried.

 

[JustARide]

Well, MarcAC, plainly we've reached that wonderful holding pattern, more commonly known as "agreeing to disagree," a status with which I'm quite content. Hey, as long as you're trying...

As you seem to be inserting my little "just a ride" phrase into strategic parts of your arguments, let me at least explain why I so compulsively quote it. I'm not saying life is simply a ride to heaven (or to anywhere for that matter), but more that the vast majority of our daily business is far less important than we presume. Mr. Hicks, of course, put it best...

The world is like a ride at an amusement park. It goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question, is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey - don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride..." And we... kill those people.

"Shut him up. We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real."

Just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. Jesus murdered; Martin Luther King mudered; Malcolm X murdered; Gandhi murdered; John Lennon murdered; Reagan.... wounded. But it doesn't matter because: It's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want.

It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defenses each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over - not one human being excluded - and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace.​

Toodles.

Josh

It's just a ride - Bill Hicks

 

[MarcAC]

Yeah, I won't stuff my belief down your throats... you might choke...... I can just present it... and you decide whether it's worth your time... strange thing is my 'belief' is much greater than I am... but you can consider it a belief if you wish. That's why God allowed us free will. You choose to be with Him in the end... or you choose not to... your choice.

Oh... I'd say just get rid of money altogether... the world would be a better place.

Later Hick Guy...

 

[JustARide]

Beliefs can affect any number of aspects of a person's life; they're still beliefs. I can invent a God I believe rules over your God and claim my belief is "bigger."

The world has been playing MY GOD CAN BEAT UP YOUR GOD for centuries. The pattern is usually the same: 1) Make shit up about things we couldn't possibly know, 2) Kill/fight people who disagree with it.

Anything to avoid saying, "I don't know."

"The final delusion is the belief that one has lost all delusions." - Chapelain

Josh

PS - Call me Hick Guy one more time and I'm going to assume AC stands for Ass Cracker.

It's just a ride. - Bill Hicks

 

[heart]

Yeah... me neither... but anyway... if you read my post to the Hick Guy... I posted the same thing I would here... you have your view... I have mine... in the end who's right...? Through my faith I know it'll be me... but human knowledge isn't all that great... so... we'll see

You're right, we both are entitled to our opinion. I'm just explaining that I cannot excuse brutal behavior- even if "god" is the one doing it. To blindly believe that he has a good motive for ordering children to be dashed to pieces in front of their parents eyes, for me, is kind of foolish. I don't think it is a good thing to just blindly believe, although I will confess I have done so before.

Maybe... O.k.... soooo if we decide to rebel like say... you?... We can just kill God and lock him away like any Hitler and Bin Laden right? I don't avoid the subject of God's brutality... I embrace it as a fact of life... I respect it. You go on and on and argue about what God does... how about proposing some altenatives?

Perhaps it's easy for you to condone and respect killing children and babies, which I might add are innocent, but I just can't. The alternative to following your biblical god or the alternative of him killing innocent lives?

All facts can be dismissed... does a blind man have to believe the Sun is a star... and there's a moon... or any such visual stimuli? It all depends on who you are...

Okay, I shouldn't have used the word can't- instead I should have used the word shouldn't.
I might add you agreed that one shouldn't dismiss the fact that Joe Blow is a pedophile when it comes to him watching a child.

You know what I see as cruel and heartless?... Focusing on one perceived negative aspect of God's character and using it to advocate your argument that God is some Hitler... defaming the character of the one who you should be grateful to for being here... but as the Hick Guy says... whatever get's you through the night.

Wow- so you are saying it would be heartless to focus on the fact that Joe Blow is a pedophile especially if he is wants to baby sit children? I guess it's easy to shut your eyes to that fact or try to rationalize it- for me it is a pretty big fact. I don't want to hang out with baby killers, why should I worship one? Like you said we both are entitled to our opinions.

 

[Jenyar]

I don't want to hang out with baby killers, why should I worship one?

A pedophile cannot restore the innocence he had taken, but God can redeem a lifetime of guilt. It's just an excuse for you. I doubt you would believe even if you really understood what happened.

Times have changed. What had been a sign of God's soveignity and justice had become a sign of weakness in your eyes. It's not a contradiction, it's an achievement. And how was this achieved? By accepting God's decree that love should extend even to your enemies. It's hypocritical to condemn the means from the perspective advantage of the end it has achieved.

You would do well to realize that like the tribe of Amalekites, the inhabitants of Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah and Nineveh, the whole earth had been placed under the ban (charam) - set apart for destruction. Like a living flood, God used Israel as a force of nature. This was in contrast to the "gods" of Egypt He had turned into natural disasters (each of the ten plagues corresponds to an Egyptian deity). The artificial "innocence" you claim for children and babies won't save them. After sin had been judged, the earth won't be left populated by babies or "innocents", it would be empty if it weren't for the possibility of redemption.