Is eating meat morally wrong

[ashura]

It was all too much effort, so you decided to give up and join the mob.

It wasn't a matter of effort, it was a matter of futility and pointlessness.

Why not?

You tell me why it is immoral. The default position is that it's not immoral.

So your philosophy now is that suffering is good, and you'll encourage more of it by your own actions. Sounds like you gave up the moral high ground.

Please don't twist my words. I never said suffering is good, I said suffering is a necessary component of life and can never be fully erased. It can only be minimized.

Convenience, or need?

Convenience, obviously. That's the word I used isn't it?

So, instead of even going half way, you chose to do nothing at all.

You seem to be confused. I never said I had an issue with killing animals for food. My issue was with the treatment of animals, and the cruelty many factory farms deliver. By currently choosing to purchase all of my animal food products from farms that claim they treat their animals decently, I am doing something.

But enough about me, let's talk about you.

You seem to be against killing animals for food based on the fact that they're sentient. But since when is sentience a grounds for equal treatment? Just because we don't kill or eat humans, we shouldn't kill or eat animals? If you had to save the lives of a dog and a human, ideally you'd save both; but if you had to choose, chances are you'd pick the human.

I mean, how far are you willing to go with the concept of sentience deserving human treatment? Where do you draw the line and why do you choose to draw it there? Seeing as how we're against slavery for humans, should we let animals run free too?

 

[Orleander]

so if a bear eats me, that's not immoral, but if I eat the bear, it is.
If I eat for survival, its not immoral, but if I eat for pleasure it is.

Rules....Sounds a lot like religion to me.

 

[MacGyver1968]

I love animals....they're delicious.

 

[Orleander]

Hey! If god didn't want us eating animals, he shouldn't have made them out of meat!

 

[sniffy]

Oh, come on, dude. You know that's just ridiculous.

I admit, this is one thing about you that I just don't understand. The idea of reducing the species' capabilities within nature, and all for mere aesthetics, just doesn't make sense.

Humans can and do survive on just what is around them, although usually a lot of effort is needed either in hunting or foraging enough to survive. The meat industry is hardly about aesthetics. Often, it's about wanton cruelty and waste and nothing to do with humans' capabilities as far as I can tell. If humans used their capabilities more and produced their own food....well we wouldn't be in this darned fine mess.

 

[Orleander]

...Often, it's about wanton cruelty and waste ....

Wanton cruelty? no. Sadists, when caught, are fired. Waste? The meat industry is a business, its about making money. Waste has no value.

I worked in a meat packing plant. I saw those guys fired. (who wants to work with a nut job who has a knife or saw in his hand??) And nothing got wasted. You wouldn't believe what people overseas will eat. Floor scrapings go into pet food or fertilizer.

 

[sniffy]

Wanton cruelty? no. Sadists, when caught, are fired. Waste? The meat industry is a business, its about making money. Waste has no value.

I worked in a meat packing plant. I saw those guys fired. (who wants to work with a nut job who has a knife or saw in his hand??) And nothing got wasted. You wouldn't believe what people overseas will eat. Floor scrapings go into pet food or fertilizer.

It's a business alright; a nasty business.
Waste? Yes in the production of meat. Land given over for grazing that could be used to grow protein rich crops that would feed more local people.

Wanton cruelty? In the production and lining up and killing of that which produces the 'meat'; the animals. Filled with drugs, fattened, hemmed in, then hung upside down, throats slit or electrocuted or bashed on the head or a combination. Nice.

You wouldn't believe what people overseas will eat.

You wouldn't believe how condescending that sounds.

So taking all this into account is it any wonder that some people have no appetite for meat?

 

[ashura]

Wanton cruelty? In the production and lining up and killing of that which produces the 'meat'; the animals. Filled with drugs, fattened, hemmed in, then hung upside down, throats slit or electrocuted or bashed on the head or a combination. Nice.

I'm just curious: is it the killing itself, or the cruel treatment preceding the killing that you consider wanton cruelty? Or is it both?

 

[Orleander]

It's a business alright; a nasty business.
Waste? Yes in the production of meat. Land given over for grazing that could be used to grow protein rich crops that would feed more local people.

Wanton cruelty? In the production and lining up and killing of that which produces the 'meat'; the animals. Filled with drugs, fattened, hemmed in, then hung upside down, throats slit or electrocuted or bashed on the head or a combination. Nice.

You wouldn't believe how condescending that sounds.

So taking all this into account is it any wonder that some people have no appetite for meat?

I'm from NE. Cows eat scrub and graze on land that isn't fit for crops, unless you divert a lot of water there and put lots of fertilizer on it. How is that better for the planet? What protein rich crop grows well in soil rich in sand and clay?

And its not condescending. Its my opinion that they eat gross stuff. And I bet a lot of other people think other cultures eat gross stuff. They eat what we give our pets as chew toys.

All you know about butchering animals is what you have seen in PETA films I bet.

 

[sniffy]

I'm from NE. Cows eat scrub and graze on land that isn't fit for crops, unless you divert a lot of water there and put lots of fertilizer on it. How is that better for the planet? What protein rich crop grows well in soil rich in sand and clay?

And its not condescending. Its my opinion that they eat gross stuff. And I bet a lot of other people think other cultures eat gross stuff. They eat what we give our pets as chew toys.

All you know about butchering animals is what you have seen in PETA films I bet.

Never seen a PETA film in my life. I was brought up in the countryside. My father worked with horses and I spent a lot of time on farms. But the meat industry is not the same as the little farm down the road, few of which exist any more anyway.

The demand for meat is now so high that cattle are grazing on prime crop land all over the world adding to desertification and diverting land away from local populations. To feed the greedy west. And the cattle are not those nice little moo moos down on the farm next door either. They are a different breed entirely that people from your culture wouldn't eat if you actually saw them.
Plenty of protein rich crops will grow in clay soils rich in sand but not if cattle have grazed away all the plants holding the topsoil together.

Anyway meat industry moos don't get to graze too much now do they?

 

[Orleander]

...Anyway meat industry moos don't get to graze too much now do they?

cows are not raised in feedlots. They are raised on ranches and shipped to feedlots. They are fattened up on grain in feedlots before being shipped to slaughter houses.
How many calves have you seen in a feedlot? How many bulls? Its steers and some heifers.

 

[sniffy]

I think you speaking in americanese.
We calls em fields and pastures and farms.
And factories. Factory farming have you heard of it?

 

[Orleander]

I think you speaking in americanese.
We calls em fields and pastures and farms.
And factories. Factory farming have you heard of it?

and here we go, right on to rudeness.
Never mind then.

 

[sniffy]

Rude? In what way? Making assumptions about how people arrived at their views and PETA or whatever else; is that not rude?

Spelling it out then. In the UK we don't have ranches, steers or feedlots. It's a small place. We do have farms and factory farming; the two are usually very different. Do you? In America have factory farming? I suspect you do?

 

[ashura]

Yes, we do. But factory farms aren't the only source of animal food products.

I asked a question earlier, perhaps you missed it. Are you against the killing of animals, or the cruelty involved in the process preceding the killing? To put the question in a hypothetical, if factory farm practices were abolished, would you still be against eating meat?

 

[Orleander]

Rude? In what way? Making assumptions about how people arrived at their views and PETA or whatever else; is that not rude?...

Then I apologize. I didn't mean to be rude. I didn't mean to offend. I assumed and I shouldn't have.

 

[MacGyver1968]

No steers in the UK? What do call a bull with no nuts?

 

[sniffy]

No steers in the UK? What do call a bull with no nuts?

dead meat

 

[MacGyver1968]

No seriously...it wasn't a joke. Do have another name for male cow who has been castrated?

 

[sniffy]

Yes, we do. But factory farms aren't the only source of animal food products.

I asked a question earlier, perhaps you missed it. Are you against the killing of animals, or the cruelty involved in the process preceding the killing? To put the question in a hypothetical, if factory farm practices were abolished, would you still be against eating meat?

I didn't miss your question Ash I ignored it but as you are so insistent. I am not opposed to eating meat per se. Did I state that I was? Factory farm practices are bad on many levels and they are certainly not healthy for any of the animals involved particularly the human variety! Meat should be eaten in small quantities no more than a couple of times a week..

Having said that, i haven't eaten meat for over 15 years and i doubt i could go back to it now.

And no Orleander i don't say that cos PETA told me to.