Is Darwinism compatible with Religion?

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Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of the theory of evolution.



Genesis is a creation myth, with no supporting evidence. Evolution is a scientific theory with reams of supporting evidence.

Enough said.

OK. But allow me to ask a very simple, and perhaps stupid, question. If man is descended from apes, and apes are descended from X, and X is descended from Y, and Y is descended from Z, all the way down to fish or frogs, why are there still apes, Xs, Ys, Zs, fish and frogs? Why did some "apes" evolve and others did not? Coincidence? Dumb luck? :shrug:
 
OK. But allow me to ask a very simple, and perhaps stupid, question. If man is descended from apes, and apes are descended from X, and X is descended from Y, and Y is descended from Z, all the way down to fish or frogs, why are there still apes, Xs, Ys, Zs, fish and frogs? Why did some "apes" evolve and others did not? Coincidence? Dumb luck? :shrug:

No, it appears you don't understand evolution. Coincidence? Dumb luck?

Lack of education.
 
im sorry but any chrsitians who believe in creationism and darwinism are just dumb!
God made the whole world in 7 days with all its current creatures etc.
Evolution believed us to jhave been unicellular organisms for thousands/millions of years.
 
OK. But allow me to ask a very simple, and perhaps stupid, question. If man is descended from apes, and apes are descended from X, and X is descended from Y, and Y is descended from Z, all the way down to fish or frogs, why are there still apes, Xs, Ys, Zs, fish and frogs? Why did some "apes" evolve and others did not? Coincidence? Dumb luck? :shrug:

Apes didn't evolve into humans, all primates have a common ancestor.

All animals have evolved, nobody apart from you is suggesting otherwise.

Perhaps you should read some books on evolution (I'd avoid anything by Ken 'the con man' Ham though).
 
OK. But allow me to ask a very simple, and perhaps stupid, question. If man is descended from apes, and apes are descended from X, and X is descended from Y, and Y is descended from Z, all the way down to fish or frogs, why are there still apes, Xs, Ys, Zs, fish and frogs? Why did some "apes" evolve and others did not? Coincidence? Dumb luck? :shrug:

It's straightforward: no need to.

Fish get by being fish just because the design worked, and still works at this time. Things that deviated from "fish-ness" either made it or didn't, and became things that didn't look so much like fish, or didn't make it at all. But even if they did make it, it doesn't mean that suddenly "fish-ness" is no good. Sure, there's dumb luck to it; but the dumb luck gets tried against fitness, and either makes it or doesn't. In the same way, being human isn't necessarily "better", except that we get HBO. There's lots of primate lineages that tanked completely - Neanderthals, australopithecines, etc. Now, it's possible that a whole lineage or species might go over, but the genes controlling the new variance would have to be pretty widespread and quickly.
 
Whoops forgot why I stopped in:

I think Gould's description of NonOverlapping Magisteria (NOMA) is a good one. Essentially, you can be religious and be a Darwinist, because science really has nothing to do with faith. Now, Darwinism might refute literalist translations of the Bible or the Koran or the Torah, but that doesn't mean you can't be religious or even of those religions and be a Darwinist. Why cling so tightly to Genesis? Do you still stone homosexuals to death? Seriously.
 
No, it appears you don't understand evolution. Coincidence? Dumb luck?

Lack of education.

Maybe I'm just playing dumb to beg the question a bit.

Now, it's possible that a whole lineage or species might go over, but the genes controlling the new variance would have to be pretty widespread and quickly.

I have trouble with the variance theory. Sure, anomalies pop up -- like two headed snakes or other less distinguishable traits. But how fast can primates, without intentional genetic influence, become different to the extent that humans are to other primates, past or present. All of a sudden, everyone started exhibiting that trait? The primate undergoing evolution one day developed a system of verbal language? Who else would even understand him/her? What would quickly and in large dispersal trigger traits permitting vocabulary?

Don't get me wrong; I do understand evolution. But what I've noticed in the recent literature is the lack of any clear genetic or archeological continuity which can trace present homo sapiens to others. There are leaps and gaps that apparently show dramatic changes (if we hold firmly to evolution) which account for more than just climatological and geographic ideosyncracies prompting evolutionary change.
 
Apes didn't evolve into humans, all primates have a common ancestor.

All animals have evolved, nobody apart from you is suggesting otherwise.

Perhaps you should read some books on evolution (I'd avoid anything by Ken 'the con man' Ham though).

That's not true. Humans did not evolve directly from primates. Apes already evolved from primates and then humans branched off from the apes. So, we are apes.
 
I have trouble with the variance theory. Sure, anomalies pop up -- like two headed snakes or other less distinguishable traits.

Now, that's a bit more extreme. A two-headed snake is probably a bit unfit, actually. Smaller changes would probably be a bit more effective.

But how fast can primates, without intentional genetic influence, become different to the extent that humans are to other primates, past or present. All of a sudden, everyone started exhibiting that trait?

No - a few did, and might thereby have had a small advantage than others in their species who didn't - or, had a lower fitness: we don't get to hear about them, since they bit the evolutionary bullet; the rest of the species stays the course, of course, and so they maintain the 'typic' form. A monkey still looks like a monkey, and so forth. The variant types, however, were just a little more successful: maybe they were indeed able to use some communicative grunts and thereby gain an advantage, or maybe they were stronger, or so forth. Or maybe their increased communicativeness helped the other monkeys, because mutant monkey A could point at a tiger and screech like a banshee. Lot of ways it might work.

The primate undergoing evolution one day developed a system of verbal language? Who else would even understand him/her? What would quickly and in large dispersal trigger traits permitting vocabulary?

The others would need a comprehension of point and association. "Monkey points and screams while shitting self" probably would mean "tiger". But this is something many animals can do, especially primates, which is the specific example here.

Don't get me wrong; I do understand evolution. But what I've noticed in the recent literature is the lack of any clear genetic or archeological continuity which can trace present homo sapiens to others. There are leaps and gaps that apparently show dramatic changes (if we hold firmly to evolution) which account for more than just climatological and geographic ideosyncracies prompting evolutionary change.

Well, few evolutionary trees are complete. Horses are basically all there; fish to amphib isn't bad either. Not all are well finished, obviously: but primates are actually not very different form each other, frankly. Cranium, jaw, rough structure is all really very similar. One can look a monkey and see a very humanoid form. I think the ruckus over the 'lack' of intermediaries is very overdramatic. Primates look very much like primates, of almost any form.
 
Learned Hand:

OK. But allow me to ask a very simple, and perhaps stupid, question. If man is descended from apes...

Woah! Stop right there.

Human beings are not descended from apes. Rather, human beings and apes both share a common ancestor.

... and apes are descended from X, and X is descended from Y, and Y is descended from Z, all the way down to fish or frogs, why are there still apes, Xs, Ys, Zs, fish and frogs?

Because evolution isn't like a ladder going from simple things to "more evolved" things. It is better to think of a tree, where every species alive today is the end of a branch, but all branches share a common root.

Using that analogy, chimpanzees and human beings are like two twigs side by side at the end of a common branch of the evolutionary tree. Their common ancestor species sits at the point where the two branches fork.

Why did some "apes" evolve and others did not? Coincidence? Dumb luck? :shrug:

All apes evolved.
 
I don't consider Darwinism to be compatible with religion (assuming Abrahamic), simply because of the initial cause (initial life). It is without doubt that all three religions equate creation as Allah's doing (to some degree), so theories like abiogenesis or life arousing from inept elements in comparison to intelligent design are inconsistent. I suppose the content after life has been recognized can be debated, but the origins of the two differ immensely. You may be permitted to juxtapose selective portions of evolution and intelligent design, but you must be in concrete accordance to one of the two for the origins.
 
I don't consider Darwinism to be compatible with religion (assuming Abrahamic), simply because of the initial cause (initial life). It is without doubt that all three religions equate creation as Allah's doing (to some degree), so theories like abiogenesis or life arousing from inept elements in comparison to intelligent design are inconsistent. I suppose the content after life has been recognized can be debated, but the origins of the two differ immensely. You may be permitted to juxtapose selective portions of evolution and intelligent design, but you must be in concrete accordance to one of the two for the origins.

Yes its true, but atheists will say "so what if there's no evidence for abiogenesis, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means there's no evidence that it happened, we know that it COULD'VE happened, and thats good enough for me"

All of a sudden atheists do not need evidence to believe in something, as long as it goes in-line with atheism, who cares if there's evidence? We can just blindly believe it, as opposed to believing anything favoring theism (that would be horrible), then we absolutely NEED massive amounts of evidence
 
learned hand said:
but science has yet to observe (archaeologically, bio-genetically, or otherwise) any change so radical as a change from one genus into another (i.e. chimp to human).
Depends on what you mean by "observe".

Scientists have never observed, for example, a 300 foot tree grow from a little itty bitty seed. But they do think that's how all those big old trees came to be, and they have their reasons.

Scientists have never observed stellar evolution, continental drift of any distance, the formation of sedimentary or metamorphic rock, or the mating of giant squid. Nevertheless, these are proposed with great confidence, because of the large amount of evidence for their having happened and the lack of alternative explanations for that evidence.

The similarities between the genetic codes of a chimp and a human are striking, and have no other explanation than descent from a common ancestor as yet. As far as evolution in general, the patterns of similarity in the genetic codes of animals in general have so far been explained in only one way - evolutionary descent from common ancestors.

Not only has evolutionary theory explained genetic similarities and differences already known, but it has correctly predicted the discovery of others. That is powerful evidence of the validity of any proposed scientific theory, and a long string of such successes has enshrined neo-Darwinian evolutionary theory as the standard, basic theory of biology.
 
Religion reflects man's imagination in the absence of facts. And these ideas come and go as science provides facts.

Science is simply an innocent ongoing process for helping man determine what is fact and what is not. It is these facts that help mankind improve his lot in life. Religious ideas appear to be just passing fancies that are systematically discredited over time in direct correlation with the growth of scientific knowledge.

biblically speaking, James addressed thus

James 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

science also, thus addressed in the new statement particularly,

1 Timothy 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
 
Yes its true, but atheists will say "so what if there's no evidence for abiogenesis, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, it just means there's no evidence that it happened, we know that it COULD'VE happened, and thats good enough for me"

All of a sudden atheists do not need evidence to believe in something, as long as it goes in-line with atheism, who cares if there's evidence? We can just blindly believe it, as opposed to believing anything favoring theism (that would be horrible), then we absolutely NEED massive amounts of evidence

No Vital. It's clear that life exists, so it's reasonable to assume and believe that at some point in history life began. How life began is the question, and there are numerous theories, some based on science and others on religious myths.
 
No Vital. It's clear that life exists, so it's reasonable to assume and believe that at some point in history life began. How life began is the question, and there are numerous theories, some based on science and others on religious myths.

ahahaa, pretty funny, so how does this contradict what I said? Life could have an intelligent cause, but atheists can't come to this conclusion (that would be horrible), and you know it, stop lying to yourself and just admit that you don't want to believe anything that favors religion
 
ahahaa, pretty funny, so how does this contradict what I said? Life could have an intelligent cause, but atheists can't come to this conclusion (that would be horrible), and you know it, stop lying to yourself and just admit that you don't want to believe anything that favors religion

True, it is a conclusion, but not one that anyone who understood there couldn't possibly be design in life would accept. Perhaps you simply don't understand?
 
True, it is a conclusion, but not one that anyone who understood there couldn't possibly be design in life would accept. Perhaps you simply don't understand?

Really? Why couldn't there possibly be design in life? I'm not talking about evolution, but abiogenesis, you know the molecular machines in cells, etc...

Science is naturalism, it can't say that there is a intelligent cause by default, it has to say it happened by some "unknown naturalistic means" even if there's no evidence for it
 
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