Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[C C]

Thank you for the interest. Chalmers clearly is not a "mysterian". The question was if any Sciforum members were.... There seems to be vehement denial of the fact that consciousness is not mystical, but physical and should be explainable with physics, not magic.

Biology doesn't float on its own, so yeah -- any deep or satisfactorily explanation would be grounded in physics or its conception of matter (which might have to be revised unless it's already compatible with offshoots of Russellian monism that simply dissolve the hard-problem away for science).

I totally agree it is not magical, it is clearly physical.

Whether by "physical" one is referring to the corporeal phenomena of perception and instrument detection or to the abstract description physics extracts and infers from them -- both are epiphenomenal "maps". Epiphenomenal with respect to being like interfaces (we all know the icons displayed on the desktop file or background of a computer are causally impotent appearances -- what does the work is hidden).

Evolution seems to discriminate in favor of biological fitness rather than existential truth pertaining to a mental-independent or metempirical world. Phenomenal and rational properties make "evidence" possible in the first place, as far as being something beyond robot behavior and robot thoughts that transpire in the "dark" without experiential confirmation of themselves.

So the way a version of a world not mediated by manifested representations and communicative symbols would exist is unknowable other than declaring it absent of all "shown" and described properties (like after death). That is, if it was non-mental or devoid of those attributes. Even if a non-mediated existence did consist of mental characteristics in a non-personal or objective mode, it would be rather extraordinary if it subsisted to itself as humans represent it because, again -- experiments conducted for that indicate evolution doesn't select for that route (existential or ontological truth).

Plus, various types of realism revolving around science have already attested to that for centuries, but to a less extreme degree due to "rational objects" ironically still being treated as less mental than "sensory objects".

But that is precisely what is happening, the specialized neural network in parts of the brain literally combine to conjure self-conscious experiences. Let's remove the magical aspect of conjuring and call it an emergent property.

More specifically the manifestations in our perceptions, feelings, and thoughts should be slotted as the result of "brute emergence" if there are no primitive or undeveloped precursors of experience for the complex materializations concomitant with the brain to incrementally arise from.

Most scientists and their satellite philosophers despise panpsychism and any mitigated sub-species of it, in addition to any veiled version of it that can be exposed as having passed through gate security. Thus, there should be no non-controversial or non-fringe precursors resting on the table of the physical sciences for conventional or "non-magical" emergence. If there are, it's probably due to the majority watchdogs not being alert yet that _X_ is panprotoexperientialism or something in disguise. They aren't robustly adept in that department in terms of speedily recognizing an item which conflicts with their own prescribed canon or preferences (in this territory).

 

[Write4U]

Still no evidence that consciousness can be found in microtubules.

Thanks for reminding all you have no evidence that consciousness cannot be found in microtubules.

 

[DaveC426913]

Thanks for reminding all you have no evidence that consciousness cannot be found in microtubules.

Er, sure.

We also have no evidence that consciousness cannot be found in toenails, freckles or gall stones.

 

[Write4U]

Whether by "physical" one is referring to the corporeal phenomena of perception and instrument detection or to the abstract description physics extracts and infers from them -- both are epiphenomenal "maps". Epiphenomenal with respect to being like interfaces (we all know the icons displayed on the desktop file or background of a computer are causally impotent appearances -- what does the work is hidden).

I am no computer expert, can we not regulate many of the computer functions, because we can measure what it does? I saw a demonstration of a person mentally controlling a robotic arm and hand. It was eerie to watch.

and

Non-Invasive Brain Computer Interfaces (BCIs)
Seamless mind-machine interactivity with digital worlds

C

onceptualized more than a century ago and demonstrated in 1924 to be capable of measuring electrical activity in the human brain, EEG (electroencephalography) was heavily research through the 1970s courtesy of financing from the National Science Foundation and DARPA with some of the earliest brain-computer implants dating back to at least the 90s.

As brain research has accelerated in recent years, EEG technology has gotten much cheaper and less invasive. Today, companies including Facebook are seeking ways to package the technology into a novel consumer product. Although EEG was largely pioneered as a neuroprosthetic technology for impaired individuals such as those who are paralyzed, non-invasive brain-computer interfaces (BCIs) can now translate activity from the brain's speech center into text or some other interaction with a digital device.

Are we not already able to control our brain mental outputs to a degree?

EEG interfaces typically consist of a headset, skullcap or armband that convert brain activity into digital signals. This allows the technology to read impulses from the nervous system and creates the opportunity for devices that could let you to type with your mind for example, not to mention the potential for VR applications or any other medium that could benefit from a seamless BCI solution.

https://www.techspot.com/article/1534-civilization-20-next-gen-technologies/

Are we not already applying some "brain in a vat" principles? How far away are we from being able to mentally control an AI?

Evolution seems to discriminate in favor of biological fitness rather than existential truth pertaining to a mental-independent or metempirical world. Phenomenal and rational properties make "evidence" possible in the first place, as far as being something beyond robot behavior and robot thoughts that transpire in the "dark" without experiential confirmation of themselves.

I agree, but one can ask what constitutes a biological fitness? Is it purely physical or is a mental fitness adapted to any specific living environment also a sign of biological fitness? There are abundant examples of very specialized evolved sensory and brain functions, which can be studied and perhaps categorized.

What intrigues me the most is the mutative appearance of human chromosome 2, which seems to definitively mark the split of homo sapiens from the other hominids. The most remarkable aspect of this mutative evolutionary event may not necessarily be a result of an natural selection for survivability.

I believe a case can be made that this mutation was causal to the extraordinary of a brain which is far more capable than just for survivability. Our great ape cousins are doing quite well with the brains they have, except of course for their greatest enemy, man. And I don't think that killing a gorilla for use of his hands as an ashtray is in any way a sign of better adaptation to the environment. The appearance of the human brain (homo sapiens) is not a result of slow evolution, it was a beneficial mutative event.

Human Chromosome 2 isa fusion of two ancestral chromosomes
Introduction

All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes. There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had 24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor's chromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans. The evidence for this hypothesis is very strong.....more

Conclusion

The evidence that human chromosome 2 is a fusion of two of the common ancestor's chromosomes is overwhelming.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

Being that, apart from cosmetic changes, the greatest divergence from our predecessor was in brain power, it would suggest that this mutation produced an extra-ordinary leap in brain growth, over and above a gradual evolutionary refinement and specialization of brain processes as evidenced in other species.

This extraordinary good fortune has a negative side, if we don't learn to use our brain power for positive survival purposes, not only for our species but also keeping "in mind" other species and their functions in nature in maintaining a balanced biological environment.

p.s. thank you for that excellent link to "Russellian Monism". This offers real "food for thought".......

 

[Write4U]

Er, sure.
We also have no evidence that consciousness cannot be found in toenails, freckles or gall stones.

Yes we do. Those things you mentioned are demonstrably not conscious, in context of having brains. Consciousness is not a chemical substance, it is a processing of electro-chemical sensory information.

An octopus does have consciousness in its tentacles. It has 9 independent but connected brains, one for each arm and a main processor. This is why an octopus might well be the smartest non-mammalian animal, capable of extraordinary intelligent behaviors.

So we do have evidence that consciousness can exist where there is a brain. No brain, no consciousness.

However we also have evidence of unconscious electro-chemical "memory" in single celled organisms. This may be the proto-consciousness of sensory awareness and causal responses. The slime-mold is a wonderful example of quasi-intelligent behavior in a unconscious single celled "hive" organism, a grazing pseudopod.

Consciousness is an emergent evolutionary phenomenon. You can clearly follow the emergent sophistication in awareness and response to environmental conditions and pressures.

Human intelligence is an anomaly, a lucky accidental mutation.

 

[Bells]

Thanks for reminding all you have no evidence that consciousness cannot be found in microtubules.

And thanks for continuing to point out the dishonest way in which you post and then dodging it and changing the subject and context of people's quotes and comments.

For example, you accused me of calling you names and apparently constantly "citing Page #5". I have asked you to please back up these claims and instead of doing so, you post, well, crap. Par for the course, I guess, when it comes to you. This is not the first nor the last time that you will try to pull this kind of bullshit.

 

[Write4U]

This is not the first nor the last time that you will try to pull this kind of bullshit.

Then stay out of my face. I didn't start this idiotic bullshit. I am accused of interfering with other posters in their threads, but every time I post something in my thread you can come waltzing in and try to destroy me personally.

As a moderator why don't you heed your own rules. I don't call you names, that is not how I debate and I know that if I did, you would take the first opportunity to censor me.

You're acting like Trump; "I don't like your style you're fired". Not worthy of a science forum.

 

[exchemist]

I didn't start this idiotic bullshit.

Seriously.

 

[Write4U]

Seriously.

Seriously. Don't confuse the issues.

 

[river]

Wright4U

Octopus consciousness evolved . It didn't just suddenly appear . Or become .

Consciousness evolves . Through duration , memory , experience , knowledge and thinking .

 

[river]

Chemical reactions and according to Roger Penrose this phenomenon begins to become expressed even at quantum scale.

As I understand it, a quantum event is a threshold event. A limit has been exceeded and a corrective "action" takes place. While non-sentient particles cannot feel, they do in fact experience a "bing", a threshold event.

An earthquake is experienced by all objects in its range of influence. They just don't know this, except for organic biology. It is what sets organics apart from inorganics, in the world of chemicals.

But quantum is responsible for chemical action and reaction in both in-organic (elemental) chemicals and in organic (living) objects.

IMO, Organic matter has evolved in acquiring a cognitive "sensitivity" to quantum events which translates quantum "bings" into sentient and emotional chemical reactions.

This is the area Hameroff and Penrose are currently exploring. Micro tubules are tiny quantum computers.

Advanced consciousness creates .

 

[Write4U]

Write Correct4U

Octopus consciousness evolved . It didn't just suddenly appear . Or become .

Consciousness evolves . Through duration , memory , experience , knowledge and thinking .

I agree.

But that does not explain the actual mechanism and that's what this thread is all about.
IMO, from what I have read, the one candidate which qualifies is the small processors contained in every cell and every nerve of the body and is the biological transport and processing mechanism of all Eukaryotic organisms.

It is the common denominator of all organisms that have any form of awareness about their environment, from single celled paramecium to octopus, to humans.

Are Microtubules the Brain of the Neuron
November 29, 2015

Microtubules may be the brains of the cell, particularly neurons—operating like a computerized Lego set. They are large complex scaffolding molecules that work closely with the two other rapidly changing structural molecules, actin and intermediate filaments, to provide structure for the entire cell including the spatial placement of organelles.

note: organelles do not float in the cytoplasm, they are held in place and informationally connected by microtubular neurons.

In neurons, microtubules respond instantly to mental events and constantly build and take down elaborate structures for the rapidly changing axons and dendrites of the synapses. Some think that microtubules are quantum computers and the seat of consciousness. Their lifestyle is quite remarkable.

A previous post described elaborate functions along the neuron’s axon including special tagging of cargoes that are transported by distinct motors with complex ancillary molecules for each type of transport.

Microtubules are the basic structural elements for cell division. The centromere is a key structure holding chromosomes together. It connects with the kinetochore where microtubule based spindle fibers attach to the chromosomes. Centrioles produce microtubules that orchestrate the rearrangement and sorting of the DNA during the extremely elaborate process of cell division. Complex arrangements of microtubules direct and pull all the elements of the division process through multiple phases. The structure for this process is considered the most complex machine ever discovered in nature and is based on microtubule actions.

Microtubules are critical for the neuron’s migration; for the polar structure of the dendrite, soma and axon; and for stem cell’s determination of the type of cell a neuron will become. They are highways for long distance transport of materials and organelles. They are dynamic and changeable with elaborate mechanical functions. They control the signaling at local regions of the extremely long axon.

http://jonlieffmd.com/

 

[river]

I agree.

But that does not explain the actual mechanism and that's what this thread is all about.
IMO, from what I have read, the one candidate which qualifies is the small processors contained in every cell and every nerve of the body and is the biological transport and processing mechanism of all Eukaryotic organisms.

It is the common denominator of all organisms that have any form of awareness about their environment, from single celled paramecium to octopus, to humans.

Are Microtubules the Brain of the Neuron
November 29, 2015

Because they have space in the centre called Lumen.

Space inside a tubular structure .

 

[Write4U]

Space inside a tubular structure .

First; the space inside a microtubule is but a some 10 nanometers in diameters.
There is not much that will fit in that space except water. This is demonstrated elsewhere in the thread. There are no empty spaces inside and between cells.

Could there be another role?

Others have claimed that various micro "cargo" could be transported inside the microtubule (also called the microtubule lumen) - similar to subway tunnels. This would have to be an active process as diffusion within the tube would be fairly slow, as specially for any molecule that had any affinity foe the inner walls of the polymer.

Perhaps microtubules store factors? Is there anything in the microtubule lumen?

As discussed in ScienceSampler, a few recent papers have surfaced that report inner-microtubule densities. These densities were seen in axonemal microtubules.

OK some more background. Axonemes are a superstructure formed by nine microtubule doublets (+ two central microtubules) and are found in long cellular projections such as flagella or cilia (like the primary cilium). To generate force a microtubule motor (dynein) slides the doublets against one another. This tends to "curve" the axoneme. Curiously this arrangement of microtubules is also seen in centrioles ... in fact a centriole like body, called the "basal body", is associated with the base (or minus end) of axonemes. Well ... okay it is not exactly the same - centrioles and basal bodies have microtubule triplets! (and no inner microtubule pair.) Despite these minor differences, it is thought that basal bodies act as a template for the axonemal microtubules.

https://scienceblogs.com/transcript/2006/08/24/whats-inside-of-a-microtubule

 

[river]

Because they have space in the centre called Lumen.

river said: ↑
Space inside a tubular structure .

That space is filled with water. This is demonstrated elsewhere in the thread.
There are no empty spaces inside and between cells.

So water flows in the Lumen . Space . In biological tubular structures .

 

[Write4U]

So water flows in the Lumen . Space . In biological tubular structures

OK, lets look at Lumen. Other than a measurement of light what other functions do lumen perform?

lumen
Also found in: Dictionary, Thesaurus, Financial, Acronyms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
lumen
[lu´men] (L.)
1. the cavity or channel within a tube or tubular organ, as a blood vessel or the intestine.
2. the SI unit of rate of flow of radiant energy, specifically that of the visible spectrum. adj., adj lu´minal.

https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/lumen

So, it is the general medical name of the cavity in a tube ? OK, I have no quarrel with that.
But these two definitions are not physically related.

 

[Write4U]

Octopus consciousness evolved . It didn't just suddenly appear . Or become .

Distribution of tubulin, kinesin, and dynein in light- and dark-adapted octopus retinas

• JUANA M. MARTINEZ (a1), HASSAN ELFARISSI (a1), BEGONA De VELASCO (a1), GINA H. OCHOA (a1) ... https://doi.org/10.1017/S0952523800171135
• Published online by Cambridge University Press: 01 January 2000

Abstract

Cephalopod retinas exhibit several responses to light and dark adaptation, including rhabdom size changes, photopigment movements, and pigment granule migration. Light- and dark-directed rearrangements of microfilament and microtubule cytoskeletal transport pathways could drive these changes. Recently, we localized actin-binding proteins in light-/dark-adapted octopus rhabdoms and suggested that actin cytoskeletal rearrangements bring about the formation and degradation of rhabdomere microvilli subsets. To determine if the microtubule cytoskeleton and associated motor proteins control the other light/dark changes, we used immunoblotting and immunocytochemical procedures to map the distribution of tubulin, kinesin, and dynein in dorsal and ventral halves of light- and dark-adapted octopus retinas.

Immunoblots detected α- and β-tubulin, dynein intermediate chain, and kinesin heavy chain in extracts of whole retinas. Epifluorescence and confocal microscopy showed that the tubulin proteins were distributed throughout the retina with more immunoreactivity in retinas exposed to light. Kinesin localization was heavy in the pigment layer of light- and dark-adapted ventral retinas but was less prominent in the dorsal region. Dynein distribution also varied in dorsal and ventral retinas with more immunoreactivity in light- and dark-adapted ventral retinas and confocal microscopy emphasized the granular nature of this labeling.

We suggest that light may regulate the distribution of microtubule cytoskeletal proteins in the octopus retina and that position, dorsal versus ventral, also influences the distribution of motor proteins. The microtubule cytoskeleton is most likely involved in pigment granule migration in the light and dark and with the movement of transport vesicles from the photoreceptor inner segments to the rhabdoms.

 

[river]

OK, lets look at Lumen. Other than a measurement of light what other functions do lumen perform?
https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/lumen

So, it is the general medical name of the cavity in a tube ? OK, I have no quarrel with that.
But these two definitions are not physically related.

There not .

Quantum is in all things .

 

[Write4U]

There not .

Quantum is in all things .

Are you a supporter of ORCH OR. (Orchestrated Objective Reduction)?
That is Penrose's hypothesis of the level at which consciotronium regulates biological objects.

Orchestrated objective reduction (Orch OR) is a biological philosophy of mind that postulates that consciousness originates at the quantum level inside neurons, rather than the conventional view that it is a product of connections between neurons. The mechanism is held to be a quantum process called objective reduction that is orchestrated by cellular structures called microtubules.

It is proposed that the theory may answer the hard problem of consciousness and provide a mechanism for free will.[1] The hypothesis was first put forward in the early 1990s by theoretical physicist Roger Penrose and anaesthesiologist and psychologist Stuart Hameroff. The hypothesis combines approaches from molecular biology, neuroscience, pharmacology, philosophy, quantum information theory, and quantum gravity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction

Can Quantum Physics Be Used to Explain the Existence of Consciousness?
Andrew Zimmerman Jones
Updated June 11, 2019

Trying to explain where subjective experiences come from would seem to have little to do with physics. Some scientists, however, have speculated that perhaps the deepest levels of theoretical physics contain the insights needed to illuminate this question by suggesting that quantum physics can be used to explain the very existence of consciousness.

One of the first ways that consciousness and quantum physics come together is through the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics. In this theory, the quantum wave function collapses due to a conscious observer making a measurement of a physical system. This is the interpretation of quantum physics that sparked the Schroedinger's cat thought experiment, demonstrating some level of the absurdity of this way of thinking, except that it does completely match the evidence of what scientists observe at the quantum level.

One extreme version of the Copenhagen interpretation was proposed by John Archibald Wheeler and is called the participatory anthropic principle, which says that the entire universe collapsed into the state we see specifically because there had to be conscious observers present to cause the collapse. Any possible universes that do not contain conscious observers is automatically ruled out.

https://www.thoughtco.com/is-consciousness-related-to-quantum-physics-2698801

 

[river]

From Write4U , post #939 , second paragraph ;

One of the first ways that consciousness and quantum physics come together is through the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics. In this theory, the quantum wave function collapses due to a conscious observer making a measurement of a physical system.

What happens if more than one conscious observer ( multiple observers ) , makes a measurement of a physical system ?