Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[exchemist]

Then answer me this. How does a wave collapse by observation? Where does the wave function collapse, at the object being viewed at a distance or in the retina of the eye? If the wave function collapses at a distance, how can reception of a distant measurement (observation) be causal to the wave function collapse?

AFAIK, collapse occurs by mere observation without any measurement of some kind. Is that not one of results of the double slit experiment. Just the presence of an observer is causal to wave function collapse?

Where is the "necessary" physical interference as suggested when considering that "conscious observation" (measurement) is woo?

Wave function collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse

Quantum decoherence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence

Complete non sequitur.

The wave function does not collapse as a result of observation by a conscious mind, but even if it did, that would not imply, at any way whatsoever, that consciousness itself was quantised.

As I say, such a notion would be total quantum woo.

 

[river]

Complete non sequitur.

The wave function does not collapse as a result of observation by a conscious mind. But even if it did, that would not imply, at any way whatsoever, that consciousness itself was quantised.

As I say, such a notion would be total quantum woo.

But many are of the understanding that the wave function collapse , is because of observation . By us .

If such a notion is " quantum woo " ; then explain it in your own thinking .

 

[exchemist]

But many are of the understanding that the wave function collapse , is because of observation . By us .

If such a notion is " quantum woo " ; then explain it in your own thinking .

To you?

 

[river]

river said: ↑
But many are of the understanding that the wave function collapse , is because of observation . By us .

If such a notion is " quantum woo " ; then explain it in your own thinking .

To you?

Just explain it then . To your own thinking .

 

[Write4U]

Emergent behavior based on signaling (visual, tactile, chemical) between bees.
Next question?

That is not sufficient explanation. It's easy to say consciousness is an emergent ability. That's the easy answer.
The hard problem is, how do they do it? Many things are sensitive, some things are aware, some things are consciously aware. All of them seem able to self organize in some way.

 

[Write4U]

Complete non sequitur.
The wave function does not collapse as a result of observation by a conscious mind, but even if it did, that would not imply, at any way whatsoever, that consciousness itself was quantised.

I understood that just rigging a camera observing the slits would affect the result.

As I say, such a notion would be total quantum woo.

Does the observer or the camera collapse the wave function in the double slit experiment?

If we setup a camera before the slit we will find a single photon and will follow through accordingly, likewise by having a camera setup after the slit, we can retroactivly collapse the wave function by observation. Here is my question. If we setup the camera to record like above but NEVER EVER EVER look at the result of what was recorded. Does the wave function still collapse. If so then perhaps its the camera causing it. If not then it is truly based upon the observer.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/q...lapse-the-wave-function-in-the-double-slit-ex

Either way there would not be a hard-wired connection. How does it work without physical connections?

 

[river]

That is not sufficient explanation. It's easy to say consciousness is an emergent ability. That's the easy answer.
The hard problem is, how do they do it? Many things are sensitive, some things are aware, some things are consciously aware. All of them seem able to self organize in some way.

Agreed take a pride of Lions for example , how do the organise themselves in the hunt ? There is no sound communication . So where does ; how does the communication take form ?

Elephants use low frequency sound waves communication ; but again how do a pride of Lions do their communial communication amungst themselves .

 

[Write4U]

Agreed take a pride of Lions for example , how do the organise themselves in the hunt ? There is no sound communication . So where does ; how does the communication take form ?
Elephants use low frequency sound waves communication ; but again how do a pride of Lions do their communial communication amungst themselves .

Natural communication wonders abound. There seems to be no natural energy source which is not used by some species in some creative way. Even in environments which are deadly to 99.9 % of all species, we can find organisms which use that environment and manage to procreate.
Extremophiles are very strange organisms, and to a lesser extend so are Tardigrades.

Could it be forms of "quorum sensing"? Bacteria can do that and exhibit synchronized behavior. Single celled organisms acting in concert is a pretty neat trick.

Most termites never see the light of day. Yet they practice horticulture, build air conditioned castles and are self sufficient.
Ants practice husbandry. They keep herds of aphids which they milk and protect. Ants are not known for protecting anything but their queen.
Mayflies are Ephemera and live for one day. In that one day they must find a mate in order to breed. The female produces a pheromone which may reach as far as twenty miles, to be detected my a male who then will follow the scent twenty miles back to the female.
Bees have an entirely different reproductive cycle than other species. They also practice "debate" and "quorum sensing". Inter- and intra-species communication abounds, even among non-related species.

 

[billvon]

That is not sufficient explanation. It's easy to say consciousness is an emergent ability. That's the easy answer.
The hard problem is, how do they do it?

Through very simple behaviors, communicated via chemical, tactile and visual means. Really, this has been studied for decades, and we have a pretty good idea how it works. I know you won't read any outside information, but all of it's available if you do a little research.

All of them seem able to self organize in some way.

All life self-organizes.

 

[river]

river said: ↑
Agreed take a pride of Lions for example , how do the organise themselves in the hunt ? There is no sound communication . So where does ; how does the communication take form ?
Elephants use low frequency sound waves communication ; but again how do a pride of Lions do their communial communication amungst themselves .

Natural communication wonders abound.
Could it be forms of "quorum sensing"? Bacteria can do that and exhibit synchronized behavior. Single celled organisms acting in concert is a pretty neat trick.

Most termites never see the light of day. Yet they practice horticulture, build air conditioned castles and are self sufficient.
Ants practice husbandry. They keep herds of aphids which they milk and protect. Ants are not known for protecting anything but their queen.
Mayflies are Ephemera and live for one day. In that one day they must find a mate in order to breed. The female produces a pheromone which may reach as far as twenty miles, to be detected my a male who then will follow the scent twenty miles back to the female.
Bees have an entirely different reproductive cycle than other species. They also practice "debate" and "quorum sensing"

This " Quorum " sensing could very well be the answer ; yet I don't know , maybe telepathic communication perhaps .

I remember a movie about Lion brothers in Africa or India when the British were building a railway in the late 1800's or early 1900's , can't remember the name of the movie , but a true story , I think M. Douglas was in it ; these Lions were killing many people working on the building of the railway , and hunters were brought in to kill these two male lion brothers . Perhaps you recall this movie . Fascinating movie . Anyway I'll look it up .

 

[Write4U]

Through very simple behaviors, communicated via chemical, tactile and visual means. Really, this has been studied for decades, and we have a pretty good idea how it works. I know you won't read any outside information, but all of it's available if you do a little research.

I know you won't read anything I post so you are completely ignorant of what I know and do not know. You just cannot resist making derogatory slurs, can you?

All life self-organizes.

Did you just discover that? I seem to have mentioned something like that for a long time. I believe I even went a step further. IMO, the universe is a self-organizing object. This is expressed in the self-assembling natural patterns, also known as Platonic solids. Of course this would only be possible in a mathematical universe. No random system would be able to form predictable recurring patterns.

Pray tell "how does consciousness self-organize"? I know microtubules do a lot of organizing of brain cells which cannot duplicate and network without them and form "consciousness".

 

[Write4U]

Venus flytraps are far from the most complex plants out there - and none of them have brains. I recommend "The Hidden Life of Trees" for an overview. Nothing about microtubules in there, though.

Well then you haven't done due dilligence. Without microtubules there would be no trees. How's that?

In animal cells, microtubules radiate outwards from an organelle in the center of the cell called a centrosome, which is a microtubule organizing center (MTOC). The cells of plants and fungi do not have centrosomes, and instead the nuclear envelope—the membrane surrounding the cell’s nucleus—is an MTOC.

https://biologydictionary.net/microtubule/

In plants

Plant cells lack centrioles or spindle pole bodies except in their flagellate male gametes, and they are entirely absent in the conifers and flowering plants.[4] Instead, the nuclear envelope itself appears to function as the main MTOC for microtubule nucleation and spindle organization during plant cell mitosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule_organizing_center

 

[billvon]

I know you won't read anything I post so you are completely ignorant of what I know and do not know. You just cannot resist making derogatory slurs, can you?

I am pointing out your behavior. Feel free to change it if you like.

Did you just discover that? I seem to have mentioned something like that for a long time.

Ah. So your statement that bees seem to self-organize somehow seems . . . less than informative.

I know microtubules do a lot of organizing of brain cells which cannot duplicate and network without them and form "consciousness".

And potassium does a lot of polarization of brain cells, and without it we could not form "consciousness." That does not mean that potassium is conscious, or is an irreplaceable component to consciousness.

Well then you haven't done due dilligence. Without microtubules there would be no trees. How's that?

Another completely meaningless statement. Without carbon there would be no trees. How's that? (Answer - just as meaningless.)

 

[Write4U]

What I find very intriguing is the fact that bacteria have no microtubules, yet have the ability for "quorum sensing", a proto form of hive mind.? A quasi -intelligent behavior?

 

[Write4U]

Another completely meaningless statement. Without carbon there would be no trees. How's that? (Answer - just as meaningless.)

But then, I don't post that trees have no carbon, you do........

 

[billvon]

But then, I don't post that trees have no carbon, you do........

Nope, never claimed anything like that. You are making shit up again. That does not help your credibility.

 

[Write4U]

I am pointing out your behavior. Feel free to change it if you like.

It's "meaningless".

Ah. So your statement that bees seem to self-organize somehow seems . . . less than informative.

True, that is is the easy problem. I'm after the "hard problem";

And potassium does a lot of polarization of brain cells, and without it we could not form "consciousness." That does not mean that potassium is conscious, or is an irreplaceable component to consciousness.

You are missing the difference between "packets of information", the data (values), and the "processors of information", the dynamic physical processes which translate the data into "perception" (functions which yield consciousness).

Another completely meaningless statement. Without carbon there would be no trees. How's that? (Answer - just as meaningless.)

See above.....

 

[Write4U]

Nope, never claimed anything like that. You are making shit up again. That does not help your credibility.

True, you posted that trees have no microtubules, and therein lies your error in fact and subsequent error in logic.
Due dilligence......

 

[Bells]

What I find very intriguing is the fact that bacteria have no microtubules, yet have the ability for "quorum sensing", a proto form of hive mind.? A quasi -intelligent behavior?

Back to this rubbish again?

You are still to address the fact that Orch or has been falsified, and you continue to spout the same rubbish.

But then, I don't post that trees have no carbon, you do........

Stop lying. At no time did he say that.

Read what he actually said instead of outright lying, you troll:

Without carbon there would be no trees.

 

[Bells]

Mod Note

True, you posted that trees have no microtubules, and therein lies your error in fact and logic.
Due diligence......

No he did not.

Stop lying. This is no longer deemed accidental, nor could it be blamed on stupidity. Your lying is malicious as it is intended to alter the context and content of his post to suit your narrative.