Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[billvon]

Can we say that area is a quantum field? Can we say that the neon bulbs lighting up is a"spontaneous" natural phenomenon?

You can say whatever you like. Since the fluorescent (not neon) bulbs are lighting up due to the E-field gradient caused by the power lines, it's not in fact natural. And since the artist did this very deliberately, it is not spontaneous.

But you have done this before, hanging the label of religion on my neck. I am an atheist and nothing that happens in nature is unnatural. Drop the religious BS , ok?

No clue what you are talking about here. You brought up religion.

 

[C C]

[...] I think that is a powerful argument in favor of the concept of consciousness being an emergent result of a neural EM field in the body and brain. [...]

I'd tend to prefer the interconnected disturbances within a mesh of fields (caused by components of a system) as privately manifesting to themselves as something, over the interacting parts of a clockwork mechanism collectively experiencing themselves as similar. (The latter seems weirder in a dualism context or more blatantly "magical" somehow.)

But I do believe a crude, slow degree of intelligence could be instantiated by an elaborate clockwork mechanism design (Charles Babbage handiwork at a grander scale). Limited memory and understanding can fall out of a configuration of brute objects and their operational relationships and interactions occurring in space.

Even the psychological presentation of an image, a noise, a feel of rough surface, an odor of rotten eggs, etc could be the result of the dynamic interconnections of "things". But what's missing is any acknowledged, basic properties that could be manipulated to relationally constitute the presentation. There isn't even a rudimentary starting point and explanation for matter having the capacity to "show" itself as anything.

Obviously, memory and information processing are necessary to verify (cognize) that _X_ arrangement of qualia "are there" (manifesting themselves). IOW, a presentation of green mingled with sweetness could be displaying itself and yet not be acknowledged and identified if the former basics of intelligence are absent. (KANT: "Thoughts without content are empty, intuitions without concepts are blind.")

But that cognitive ability to verify that "_X_ is there" (in contrast to the usual not even nothingness of matter existence) does not explain the manifestation (i.e, intelligence does not explain the manifestation). It only generates a mechanistic response that recognizes _X_'s presence (or systematically admits that the usual "not even nothingness" of the universe at large is no longer the case).

 

[Write4U]

You can say whatever you like. Since the fluorescent (not neon) bulbs are lighting up due to the E-field gradient caused by the power lines, it's not in fact natural. And since the artist did this very deliberately, it is not spontaneous.

Humans can do things that are not natural, or create non-spontaneous natural phenomena, right.

Therefore we can draw the conclusion that consciousness cannot spontaneously emerge from an E-field created by the brain, right?

 

[billvon]

Therefore we can draw the conclusion that consciousness cannot spontaneously emerge from an E-field created by the brain, right?

You could, sure. Since consciousness is based on brain activity, and brain activity is not determined by E-fields, that conclusion doesn't mean much. It's like saying that since a jar of gray sand isn't conscious, gray matter has nothing to do with consciousness.

 

[Write4U]

You could, sure. Since consciousness is based on brain activity, and brain activity is not determined by E-fields, that conclusion doesn't mean much. It's like saying that since a jar of gray sand isn't conscious, gray matter has nothing to do with consciousness.

No, you do not quite understand. Brain neural activity creates an E-field and it is that field that may create an emergent consciousness

from post $ 2362

It has been known since the 19th century that the brain generates its own EM field, which can be detected by electrodes inserted to the brain. Its source is electrical dipoles within the neuronal membranes caused by the motion of ions in and out of those membranes during action potentials and synaptic potentials.

The periodic discharge of neurons—firing or action potentials—generates EMF waves that propagate out of the neuron and into the surrounding inter-neuronal spaces where they overlap and combine to generate the brain’s global EM field that is routinely measured by brain scanning techniques such as electroencephalography (EEG) and magnetoencephalography (MEG).

The human brain, therefore, possesses around 100 billion EMF transmitters. The human brain also possesses at least 100 billion EMF receivers as each neuron is bounded by a membrane embedded with thousands of voltage-gated ion channels whose firing is triggered by EM field fluctuation across the membrane.

from post #2410

The neuronal cytoskeleton has been hypothesized to play a role in higher cognitive functions including learning, memory and consciousness.
Experimental evidence suggests that both microtubules and actin filaments act as biological electrical wires that can transmit and amplify electric signals via the flow of condensed ion clouds.

Does the analogy of the network of fluorescent bulbs being activated by an E-field begin to make sense?

 

[Write4U]

Even the psychological presentation of an image, a noise, a feel of rough surface, an odor of rotten eggs, etc could be the result of the dynamic interconnections of "things". But what's missing is any acknowledged, basic properties that could be manipulated to relationally constitute the presentation. There isn't even a rudimentary starting point and explanation for matter having the capacity to "show" itself as anything.

I truly believe that Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose are on the right track with identifying microtubules as that missing basic network able to process electrochemical data and be causal to an emergent holographic interpretation of that data. As Anil Seth posits; "the brain creates reality from the inside out as much as from the outside in".

Note that microtubules are a common denominator in all cells of every Eukaryotic organisms where they perform a range of functions, including the control of accurate mitosis and processing and transport of action potentials in the entire neural network.

The brain alone hosts some 100 billion dipolar microtubules connected by 100 trillion synapses, and connected to all other microtubules in every cell of the body. The numbers alone make microtubules the primary candidate for creating holographic pixilated images inside the brain.

Microtubules in neurons as information carriers
Erik W. Dent, PhD

1 and Peter W. Baas, PhD3

The publisher's final edited version of this article is available free at J Neurochem
See other articles in PMC that cite the published article.

Abstract

Microtubules in neurons consist of highly dynamic regions as well as stable regions, some of which persist after bouts of severing as short mobile polymers. Concentrated at the plus ends of the highly dynamic regions are proteins called +TIPs that can interact with an array of other proteins and structures relevant to the plasticity of the neuron. It is also provocative to ponder that short mobile microtubules might similarly convey information with them as they transit within the neuron. Thus beyond their known conventional functions in supporting neuronal architecture and organelle transport, microtubules may act as “information carriers” in the neuron.

Microtubules are major architectural elements without which the neuron could not achieve or maintain its exaggerated shape. In addition to serving as structural elements, microtubules are railways along which molecular motor proteins convey cargo. Microtubule arrays in axons, dendrites, growth cones, and migratory neurons are tightly organized with respect to the intrinsic polarity of the microtubule, which is relevant to both its assembly and transport properties.

Vibrant research is being conducted on the mechanisms by which microtubules are organized in different compartments of the neuron, how microtubule dynamics and stability are regulated, and the orchestration of microtubule-based transport of organelles and proteins. While all of this is surely enough to cause one to marvel, we cannot avoid pondering - what other work might microtubules do for neurons?

more......
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979999/

 

[Write4U]

There is an exponential increase in research done on all the functions microtubules perform.


https://www.ebi.ac.uk/emdb/search/microtubule*

COVID may have stifled research temporarily.

 

[Write4U]

What is the role of microtubules in neurons?

Microtubules in a neuron are used to transport substances to different parts of the cell. For example, neurotransmitters are made in the cell body close to the nucleus, but need to travel long distances to the end of axons where they will be used for synaptic transmission.

Pyramidal neurons are suspected of being the memory storage facilities in the brain.
The illustrations clearly demonstrate the scope of the network that numbers hundreds of billions of microtubules (with variable or fixed potentials) connected by 100 trillion synaptic connections.

Pyramidal neurons: dendritic structure and synaptic integration

• Pyramidal-neuron dendrites contain voltage-gated channels that can influence synaptic integration. These channels can also support backpropagating action potentials and dendritically initiated spikes. Dendritic excitability is a general property of all pyramidal neurons studied so far, but the details differ between different types of pyramidal neurons. Although there is some evidence for dendritic excitability in vivo, much more work is needed in this area.

  more....

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn2286
and more....
https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn2631

The emerging picture of the brain is just breathtaking.

 

[C C]

This finding doesn't necessarily mean that the hidden or private presentations of brain consciousness disappear, only that the cognitive processes which validate those manifestations as "being there" are disrupted (which depend upon memory and sapient routines for identification and understanding of such).
- - - - - -

Anesthetic drastically diverts the travels of brain waves
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/04/220427100602.htm

EXCERPTS: Imagine the conscious brain as a sea roiling with the collisions and dispersals of waves of different sizes and shapes, swirling around and flowing across in many different directions. Now imagine that an ocean liner lumbers through, flattening everything that trails behind with its powerful, parting wake. A new study finds that unconsciousness induced by the commonly used drug propofol has something like that metaphorical effect on higher frequency brain waves, appearing to sweep them aside and, as an apparent consequence, sweeping consciousness away as well.

Put more prosaically, the study in the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience by MIT scientists at The Picower Institute for Learning and Memory shows that propofol substantially alters how different frequencies of brain waves travel across the brain's surface, or cortex. Whereas conscious brains exhibit a mixture of waves of various frequencies rotating or traveling straight in various directions, brains under propofol anesthesia became dominated by powerful, very low frequency "delta" waves that roll straight outward in opposite directions instead of slowly rotating around central points as they do during consciousness. Higher frequency "beta" waves, meanwhile, became fewer and more erratically structured, traveling only in directions not dominated by the surging delta waves.

Traveling waves are hypothesized to perform many important functions as they coordinate the activity of brain cells over the areas of the brain they cover. These include reading information out from memory and holding it there while it waits to be used in cognition. They may also aid in perception and act as a means of time keeping in the brain. The findings therefore illustrate how profoundly anesthesia alters the state of the state of the brain as it induces and maintains unconsciousness, said senior author Earl K. Miller, Picower Professor of Neuroscience in MIT's Department of Brain and Cognitive Sciences.

[...] After the animals regained consciousness, their wave patterns all returned to where they were before propofol administration. The clear association between these two regimes (unfettered beta before or after anesthesia vs. delta dominance during anesthesia) and the state of consciousness strongly suggests a connection, Bhattacharya said.

"We hypothesize that the drastic breakdown of beta traveling waves and their redirection could contribute to loss of consciousness under propofol anesthesia," he said... (MORE - missing details)

 

[Write4U]

Perfect.....

Thanks for pushing me to explain what and how. I think I have found something that may be of interest.
This site talks about Action Potentials. In this discussion, microtubules are not mentioned by name, but we have already established elsewhere that microtubules in neurons are responsible for "action potential transmission".

So, everything that is discussed in this article confirms the fundamental role microtubules play in this brain activity.

Chapter 1: Resting Potentials and Action Potentials
John H. Byrne, Ph.D., Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy, McGovern Medical School
Revised 01 July 2021
https://nba.uth.tmc.edu/neuroscience/m/s1/chapter01.html

Despite the enormous complexity of the brain, it is possible to obtain an understanding of its function by paying attention to two major details:
First, the ways in which individual neurons, the components of the nervous system, are wired together to generate behavior.
Second, the biophysical, biochemical, and electrophysiological properties of the individual neurons.

A good place to begin is with the components of the nervous system and how the electrical properties of the neurons endow nerve cells with the ability to process and transmit information.

Video of lecture

Figure 1.1 Tap the colored buttons (light stimulus) to activate.
(You'll need to go to the site for the working model)

This excellent site has much more detail and true scientific "discovery" as to the function of neurons and why the presence of microtubules is essential in the processing of variable "action potentials" that may well be responsible for the emergent phenomenon of "conscious thought" and holographic "mental imaging".

https://nba.uth.tmc.edu/neuroscience/m/s1/chapter01.html

 

[Write4U]

This finding doesn't necessarily mean that the hidden or private presentations of brain consciousness disappear, only that the cognitive processes which validate those manifestations as "being there" are disrupted (which depend upon memory and sapient routines for identification and understanding of such).

This is where Stuart Hameroff's knowledge and practical expertise is critically important. As a practising anesthesiologist, it is his job to exactly control the administrating of anaesthetics, so as to leave the homeostatic processes undisturbed, while rendering the patient's conscious brain oblivious to the warning signals produced by the brain's homeostatic control mechanism.
As Anil Seth recalls after a surgery: "I simply wasn't there, I could have been out for 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 years, 50 years".
"One is rendered into an object and later restored back to a human".

 

[billvon]

No, you do not quite understand. Brain neural activity creates an E-field and it is that field that may create an emergent consciousness

If you say so. There is no proof of that, any more than the claim that the noise of the blood flowing through your brain creates an emergent consciousness. Even though your brain definitely does create that noise.

To put it another way, just because your brain creates electrical (or acoustic, or thermal) energy does not mean that that energy "creates an emergent consciousness." It is far more likely to be an interesting side effect of other activities (like depolarizaion, blood flow or metabolic activity) than anything causing consciousness.

Does the analogy of the network of fluorescent bulbs being activated by an E-field begin to make sense?

Nope. I know you are trying to make some kind of a clever point, but it's not working.

 

[Write4U]

If you say so. There is no proof of that, any more than the claim that the noise of the blood flowing through your brain creates an emergent consciousness. Even though your brain definitely does create that noise.

No it's your ear that "senses" the noise of blood turbulence. Your brain interprets what the ear tells via sensory neurons.

To put it another way, just because your brain creates electrical (or acoustic, or thermal) energy does not mean that that energy "creates an emergent consciousness." It is far more likely to be an interesting side effect of other activities (like depolarizaion, blood flow or metabolic activity) than anything causing consciousness.

As Sherlock Holmes famously observed:

"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” ~ Arthur Conan Doyle, The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes. Jun 22, 2020

What have you not yet eliminated as impossible?

Nope. I know you are trying to make some kind of a clever point, but it's not working.

No clever "invented solutions". My confidence stems from the fact that there is no other suitable candidate but microtubules, however improbable you may find it.

All else is impossible, for the lack of sharing a "common denominator" alone.
When taking evolutionary processes as fact, there can be only a single conclusion. All Eukaryotic organisms have learned to utilize microtubules in some fashion that benefitted their survival skills and allowed for greater use of exteroception and interoception data processes that benefitted "every" extant organism in some way.

 

[billvon]

No it's your ear that "senses" the noise of blood turbulence.

Nope. Acoustic noise, infrared radiation and E-fields are all things that have a physical reality. They are present whether or not you sense them. A woman who is deaf generates exactly the same acoustic noise due to the bloodflow through her brain.

No clever "invented solutions", my confidence stems from the fact that there is no other suitable candidate but microtubules, however improbable you may find it.

Nope. Again, you have not proven anything - other than you do not understand what consciousness is.

 

[Write4U]

Nope. Acoustic noise, infrared radiation and E-fields are all things that have a physical reality. They are present whether or not you sense them. A woman who is deaf generates exactly the same acoustic noise due to the bloodflow through her brain.

First, acoustic noise stimulates cilia in the ear. Cilia are made from microtubules. The brain has no cilia. It doesn't need them.
Second, a woman who is deaf lives in absolute silence. Same as when you are under anesthesia you are in a state of total oblivion, an "object". I am afraid you do not understand the hard problem of consciousness.

Excessively loud noise or prolonged exposure to loud noise can cause permanent damage and death to the cells in the inner ear and lead to hearing loss.

Sound waves cause vibration in the ear drum, which triggers movement of the hair cells in the inner ear, called the cilia. The cilia discharge electrical impulses that are routed through the auditory nerve to the brain. Jun 27, 2018

https://www.froedtert.com/stories/protect-your-ears-you-might-not-realize-whats-hurting-them#

The brain is a "free standing" computer. It relies completely on incoming sensory data, from both external sources (exteroception) and internal sources (interoception).

The brain has no sensory neurons at all . All experiences of the brain are from incoming data, translated from secondary neural data processing and transportation.

Descartes.

 

[billvon]

Second, a woman who is deaf lives in absolute silence.

So you believe that if you measured the noise that bloodflow made in a deaf woman's brain, there would be none because she is deaf.

Sadly I think you really may be that confused. No wonder you can't understand even basic logical arguments.

 

[Write4U]

So you believe that if you measured the noise that bloodflow made in a deaf woman's brain, there would be none because she is deaf.

Correct. The brain does not hear or see or smell. It receives electrical signals that it "translates" as sound. A "deaf" person does not perceive sound.

How does the brain hear sound?

The tiny hair cells in our inner ear send electrical signals to the auditory nerve which is connected to the auditory centre of the brain where the electrical impulses are perceived by the brain as sound. The brain translates the impulses into sounds that we know and understand.

https://www.hear-it.org/The-brain-plays-an-important-role-in-our-hearing

Note that the preception of sound involves the transmission from ear to brain via the "auditory nerve", which of course means it uses microtubules bundled inside the auditory nerve to transport the EM data to the brain which then must decipher the 'incoming" data into recognizable signals. And that is one of the processes of emergent consciousness.

Sadly I think you really may be that confused. No wonder you can't understand even basic logical arguments.

Apparently, you do not know the definition of the term "deaf". Allow me to refresh your memory.

Definition of deaf
1 : having total or partial hearing loss

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deaf

Hearing loss and deafness

A person who is not able to hear as well as someone with normal hearing – hearing thresholds of 20 dB or better in both ears – is said to have hearing loss. Hearing loss may be mild, moderate, severe, or profound. It can affect one ear or both ears, and leads to difficulty in hearing conversational speech or loud sounds.

Hard of hearing' refers to people with hearing loss ranging from mild to severe. People who are hard of hearing usually communicate through spoken language and can benefit from hearing aids, cochlear implants, and other assistive devices as well as captioning.

'Deaf' people mostly have profound hearing loss, which implies very little or no hearing. They often use sign language for communication.

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/deafness-and-hearing-loss

So when we speak of "deaf" we are not talking about partial or confused hearing. We are talking about "not hearing", due to absence of auditory stimulus from the ear.

When the auditory senses (cilia) in the ear are damaged and can no longer respond to sound waves, the brain has no data that it can interpret and remains silent.

A broken string on a guitar is unable to generate or respond to stimulation by soundwaves. The cilia in the ear are the strings of brain. When they are broken, the brain cannot perceive auditory data.

This is exactly why I consider MT as the most important foundational organelle that receives, translates, and sends the data to the brain via the neural network in the form of "action potentials", which the brain interprets and compares against "data" stored in memory.

How Does Echoic Memory Work?

When your ears hear a sound, they transmit it to the brain where echoic memory stores it for about 4 minutes. In that short time, the mind makes and stores a record of that sound so that you can recall it after the actual sound has stopped. This process is ongoing, whether you are aware of the sounds or not.

https://www.webmd.com/brain/what-is-echoic-memory

Deafness is usually not a brain defect. It is an auditory defect in the ear. This is why implants of a cochlear device can restore hearing.

Cochlear implants
Overview

How cochlear implants workOpen pop-up dialog box
A cochlear implant is an electronic device that partially restores hearing. It can be an option for people who have severe hearing loss from inner-ear damage who are no longer helped by using hearing aids.

Unlike hearing aids, which amplify sound, a cochlear implant bypasses damaged portions of the ear to deliver sound signals to the hearing (auditory) nerve.

Cochlear implants use a sound processor that fits behind the ear. The processor captures sound signals and sends them to a receiver implanted under the skin behind the ear. The receiver sends the signals to electrodes implanted in the snail-shaped inner ear (cochlea).

The signals stimulate the auditory nerve, which then directs them to the brain. The brain interprets those signals as sounds, though these sounds won't be just like normal hearing.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/cochlear-implants/about/pac-20385021#

 

[Write4U]

This is an example of a damaged auditory nerve and bypassing the ear, directly inserting a microchip implant into the brain

and this beautiful moment

Elsewhere I presented a video series of colorblind people who saw color for the first time with the help of special color filtering glasses.
To watch people enter a new world they never experienced is truly wonderful to behold.

 

[exchemist]

Correct. The brain does not hear or see or smell. It receives electrical signals that it "translates" as sound. A "deaf" person does not perceive sound.

You have missed billvon's point.

The noise of the blood flow is still there and can be picked up by a suitable detector. What the subject hears is irrelevant to the fact there is noise (sound) made by blood flowing through a living brain.

The point is that the E field generated by the electrical activity of neurons, and detected by electrodes monitoring brain activity, is electrical noise. There is no reason whatsoever to imagine that this electrical noise has some magic role in consciousness. That is pure woo, worthy of Deepak Chopra.

 

[Write4U]

You have missed billvon's point.

No, I haven't. Billvon and now you are missing the point.

The noise of the blood flow is still there and can be picked up by a suitable detector. What the subject hears is irrelevant to the fact there is noise (sound) made by blood flowing through a living brain.

The only relevant issue is what the brain hears. But the brain does not hear anything directly, it has no "suitable detector". It translates neural auditory data, just like a computer requires a microphone to supply the computer with digitized soundwave data, the brain requires the ear and auditory neurons to receive digitized soundwave data.
"Does a falling tree make a sound when there is no one to hear it?"

The point is that the E field generated by the electrical activity of neurons, and detected by electrodes monitoring brain activity, is electrical noise. There is no reason whatsoever to imagine that this electrical noise has some magic role in consciousness. That is pure woo, worthy of Deepak Chopra.

But that is exactly what the brain does, it "imagines" everything. That phenomenon is called "consciousness"

Somehow you must have missed the role of the auditory cilia and auditory (cochlear) neurons in the process of converting sound waves into electrical action potentials that the brain can translate.
Well, actually I do know why you have missed that. You don't read any of the scientific literature that I quote.

Tell me how a computer stores a "soundwave" on the HD. Then tell me how the brain stores a "soundwave" in memory. Getting the picture?

If I am wrong, enlighten me about the hard question of emergent consciousness. But you can't, can you?
So far you are not talking woo.
Problem is, you are just not saying anything at all, except "impossible". That's an easy out.