Is Athiesm The Answer?

[Yazdajerd]

As for chance, yes I also beleive that even if it was true, something did exist before it for it to have existed, but also that existance form the first matter wouldn't have come by chance... Look it all the equations in physics and chemistry, more a study of kepplers law will show it wasn't chance, for an exact calculation of the distancing of planets from the sun using only one equation, then that wouldn't be chance!!

Hence the chance theory is false.

As for the universe havn't always been there, I beleive that also, the big bang proves it had a beginning and the red shift phenomenom.

So the universe wasn't always there.

Furthermore, even if something did exist before this universe, it is obviously not there anymore, imlying that it ended which means that it too came to existance!!

As for the theory of creation.... well it is the only one left between the theories. As for the remark that who created the creator, the question contradicts itself, if the creator was created than it wouldn't be a creator, it would be part of creation and that which created it would be the creator, hence, there is only one creator!!

As proof of its existance, well....

1- when you enter a room which is in chaos, you'd think of a million reasons why it is in that shape.... but if you find it organised, then there is only one reason why it is organised..... similarly the universe, from the cosmos to the simple cell, high level of organisation exists in both...

2- when a ship is travelling amongst hurricanes and high waves and still it survives and travells in the storm not hurt and knowing its way, the ship is obviously not sailing by itself, somebody is guiding it.....

3- I ask you all, didn't you enter somekind of experience that really terrified you and felt that your existance is threatened.... but still at that moment you felt that for some reason you will survive the trip...... then why?

4- If I tell you people, I saw a tree that was chopped by itself and its logs transformed in to wood plates, then these plates formed a chair, all by itself.... who would beleive me??????? So, howcome the universe with all its unorganic molecules came to form, not chairs but even life, complex life..... logically the non-existance of God is unlogical!!!!!

 

[SnakeLord]

As proof of its existance, well....

Kindly do not use the word 'proof' or other similar words such as 'fact' etc in places they clearly don't belong. I find it really offensive. In this instance, the most you could say is "subjective evidence".

1- when you enter a room which is in chaos, you'd think of a million reasons why it is in that shape.... but if you find it organised, then there is only one reason why it is organised..... similarly the universe, from the cosmos to the simple cell, high level of organisation exists in both...

Do you really think you can make comparison between your bedroom and the universe? While you can state that your bedroom is 'organised' because you cleaned it up, you cannot assign the same variable to the entire cosmos. It seems you're thinking with a very narrow 2d vision. It's like people who say the earth is in just the right place, while forgetting about poor old venus, mars, jupiter, neptune, saturn, pluto, mercury, uranus and the billions upon billions upon billions of other planets that weren't so lucky. How can it be construed as anything other than luck when faced with every other planet we know of being extremely chaotic and lifeless? Jupiter is a humungous mass of gas and fire that has absolutely no place in a system that has been "organised". Would you claim all these other planets are there just to ensure astronomers have a job?

I see nothing wrong with viewing the world and universe with awe, but you cannot ignore and dismiss the erroneous issues off-hand to make a claim of organisation. This includes everything from the simplest to the most extreme of things. As an example just off the top of my head, I would ask you just how "organised" things are that many of us grow large powerful teeth, (that end up breaking/squashing the rest of our teeth unless they are mercilessly ripped out), that serve absolutely no function whatsoever. There are a billion zillion other things just like this - but people are happy to bypass them and then go on to claim universal perfection. It's like asking why dolphins and whales, that spend their entire lives in the sea, have to leave the water just to be able to breathe. That is not "organisation", it's a shambles.

2- when a ship is travelling amongst hurricanes and high waves and still it survives and travells in the storm not hurt and knowing its way, the ship is obviously not sailing by itself, somebody is guiding it.....

Ok, so here is the just as valid return statement: When a ship is travelling amongst hurricanes and high waves and ends up being ripped to pieces, killing everyone on board in the most disgustingly gory manner possible, the ship is obviously not sailing by itself - somebody is guiding it.

Do you see how you are being very "one-sided"? Kindly tell me what differentiates it, so when they survive its the hand of god, but when they die it's simply chalked off as "bad luck"- or will you now tell me when they crash it's the work of the devil?

All you're really doing is trying to assign human-like characteristics to the words 'fortunate' and 'unfortunate'. People do it all the time. Yesterday I was talking to a young guy who asked me how he could put weight on quickly. The guy is somewhat skinny and has a mild complex about it. I told him about metabolism and the burning of proteins, to which he asked if there's a time when the metabolism goes to sleep so it wont burn proteins. I merely concluded that he shouldn't assign sentience to bodily functions, and I will conclude the same thing with you. It is hard, I will confess. We see faces in clouds - and other such entity-like images wherever we go. At night we see the bogeyman at the end of our bed, and it's only when we wake up we notice it's just a pile of clothing- but we'd still swear we could see it smiling and showing it's teeth, moving and lurking and so on.

But anyway, before I zoom way off track, just let me know if you would assign a intelligent being as guiding that very same ship to it's death, or the act of intelligent interaction only counts when it's a good thing.

3- I ask you all, didn't you enter somekind of experience that really terrified you and felt that your existance is threatened.... but still at that moment you felt that for some reason you will survive the trip...... then why?

Personally, during times of my existence being threatened, I really haven't found the time to consider how it's going to end up. However, do not consider your brain as being completely stupid. You must have heard how people during the act of being smacked into by a bus etc state their "life flashed before their eyes".

There is a very simple reason for this. Would you and your brain rather go out of existence with the vision of pleasant memories or the acknowledgement that you've lost a leg and you're bleeding all over the street? The same applies for various similar near death experiences such as OOBE's or 'white tunnels'. If it's possible, your brain will go out peacefully instead of in abject horror at what's just happened.

Aside from that, you must take into account and understand personal attitude. When faced with probable death, some folk take the optimistic approach, some take the sombre quiet approach and some cry their eyes out with disbelief. It does not mean there's any outside space being having any part in the process, but simply your own thought and feelings. With respect to your last question, this one doesn't even come close. It's a 50/50.. you live or you die. Thinking you're going to live doesn't make it true, and I'm sure if we looked at many corpses, we'd see many of them thought they were going to make it out alive.

4- If I tell you people, I saw a tree that was chopped by itself and its logs transformed in to wood plates, then these plates formed a chair, all by itself.... who would beleive me??????? So, howcome the universe with all its unorganic molecules came to form

The most pertinent answer here is that chairs are not the universe. To really understand it better and indepth, you'd need to study the subject. Without doing so, you'll never be able to make a statement worthy of consideration. Instead people will see and understand that you haven't grasped the very basics.

Really, we're not all that special. We're just a mass of molecules, proteins and various chemicals wrapped up in a flimsy bag. We are frail, fragile, full of errors, and problems that vary and so on. While I don't want to completely dampen your view of humanity, you must look at it and appreciate it from all angles. Once you do that, you'll see it's not quite as gloriously colourful as you currently assume.

Hope this has helped in some way.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Alpha,

First, it wasn't an opinion I was offering, but an argument (yet to be substantiated of course, but this thread isn't the place for that).

fairy-tale
Function: adjective
: characteristic of or suitable to a fairy tale; especially : marked by seemingly unreal beauty, perfection, luck, or happiness

Either you have no idea what religious scriptures are, or you have formulated an unrelated opinion.


Second, it's not unrelated. You asked for an idea that was equal to or greature than that of the scriptures, and I'm contending that the scriptures aren't that great.

"The scriptures aren't that great" is your opinion. It does not enlighten me with regards to humans creating ideas which could come close to the vastness of the scriptures. Within your reply, how was i proven wrong?

Actually, someone said

:"People generate ideas about a vast variety of things so why would the god concept be any different?"

And you replied:

"Because it is not a concept."

That is the claim you made that I am responding to. You claim it is not a concept, and I'm calling you on that statement. Back it up.

Within the context of the dialouge, it was not a claim. It was a possible alternative response to the question. I wasn't sure whether to put a question mark or not as i didn't intend it to be a question. I suppose it could be called a rhetorical question.

Because I agree with it.

That's fair enough, but unless you show when the scriptures were created/conceptualised, don't come to me with "its a FACT" because i will brand you a liar.

Because it is irrelevant to whether or not the concept of God is a concept.

Firstly, you only believe that God is a concept, don't band it about as a fact. Secondly, the scriptures are the current source of information, they connect essentially with the humans who choose that conection. So how can they be irrelevant.

Exactly. You claimed God is not a concept,

I haven't, i have been trying to get you or someone like you to substantiate the claim that God was created by humans. This nonesense is abound in every atheist chatroom and message board. Now please stop evading the question and produce the evidence to support this wide belief. Asking "who other than humans could have created this idea," is not accepted as evidence, but as belief.

You want me to prove something you shouldn't even be questioning?

Why shouldn't i question it?

You are just wasting my time. How else do you propose concepts get introduced?

Lets not get casual here. You claim that God is a human concept, is fact. Now prove it, or shut up. If you're honest and say i believe that God is a human concept" you'll hear nothing more from me.

Which of these is supposed to be supernaturally inspired? Some of the activities in the movies would be considered supernatural by definition 1 if they were to actually occur, but ideas of the supernatural are entirely different from supernaturally inspired ideas. Perhaps you can explain what you were getting at.

It depends on how you use the term "surpernaturally inspired".
There was a film a while back called "Entity", i don't know if you remember. In it the main character was being sexually assaulted by an unseen entity. This film was based on the true accounts of person in real life.

Huh? Christianity isn't religion?

Of course it isn't. Some Christians may beg to differ, i've no doubt, but it is not religion. The point of Christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Lord Jesus Christ. How he lived, was the very embodiment of religion.

What are you on about? Religion can indeed be blamed. Religion is a set of beliefs that guide one's actions.

Bearing in mind, my above statement, how could Jesus' life and teachings be harmfull?

There's a difference?

“ Heh. Actually, to believe in the supernatural is nothing short of stupidity. ”

Even more stupid than being aware of something that does not exist?

Yes there is a difference, the supernatural does exist, unless you are saying the accounts of millions if not billions of people past, present and no-doubt future, are nothing but nonsense.

That wasn't very helpful. Seems you don't really want to debate me at all.

I never thought this was a debate to begin with. If you want to debate, then have some real idea about religion, spirituality and God, then use what you know to formulate an argument which brings to light your point. At the moment you are just like every other (or most) atheist(s) on these threads, just shouting and stamping like little children until you get your own way.

If one isn't aware of it, then you don't know it, and thus, you don't have the knowledge.

I can see how you come to that conclusion, but i don't think it is as simple as that. Knowledge and awareness are not the same thing.

If you're the first, then no one has the knowledge, and therefore the knowledge doesn't exist yet.

a) If it is knowledge, then someone knows, as it the definition of knowledge.
b) You can never know if you're the first, but it is safe to assume there is a first.

Simplistic actually.

Good. Then please explain it to me.

Now back up your proposition, if you please.

I don't see the point. It would only fall on deaf ears.

If there is then speak up.

I don't regard this as knowledge.
I bet your real name isn't Alpha; but who cares?

It is a statement based on evidence & reason. I am not certain of it, but I have no reason to doubt it.

Where is the evidence that this chap was the first ever person to discover Pluto?

LOL, right. If you continue to evade, then I'll have even more reason to doubt that you have anything more substantial than hot air. And who are you to judge the morality of my actions?

Hehehehe!!! Who's evading? And while on the who questions. Who's judging?
To engage in the requested dialouge with you would be pointless. Why? Because you are not interested in the subject, as far as you are concerned, you already have the answers.

Jan Ardena.

 

[SnakeLord]

The point of Christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Lord Jesus Christ.

I just wish they'd hurry up and get to the crucifiction part

Yes there is a difference, the supernatural does exist, unless you are saying the accounts of millions if not billions of people past, present and no-doubt future, are nothing but nonsense.

Strange to think that these millions, if not billions of people past, present and no-doubt future, haven't actually provided anything of substance. Nothing, nada, zip, a banana.

Because you are not interested in the subject, as far as you are concerned, you already have the answers.

[ Something about pots and kettles goes here ]

 

[rel]

Living, thinking, questioning, testing and experiencing is the answer Being told how to live your life and how to think/act is the easy way out cause you dont have to think, its all laid out for you to nod and accept

 

[Jan Ardena]

wesmorris

Each is a subjective measure and thusly your scale is your judgement.

So what?

That is an unnacceptable "scale" and loads the question from the start.

Not my problem, it's your question.
All i did was answer.

LOL. Right. Prove it.

Why should i prove it, the question had to have been based on my opinion, otherwise your questioning would be devicive. And you wouldn't do that would you wessy?

Can you even admit your ridiculous hypocracy?

Hypocracy?

You implied directly that you know the scope of human ideas with your comment that generated the question.

I didn't. I implied that to my knowledge no human beings have ever come up with anything that can be compared with the scriptures. Stay with me wes, don't go off on personal tangents.

Please show where I claimed to know what you think besides exactly what you communicated:

Easy. Your original question.

Your claim is dependent on knowing exactly what ideas humans have produced.

My claim is not dependant. My claim is my opinion and i am prepared to change my opinion if you or anyone can show me any humans who have.


That you do not recognize this is telling as to your lacking intellectual honesty.

That you have taken what were seemingly straight-forward questions, then try to brand me as lacking intellectual honesty, is actually intellectually dishonest.

I think I'll just use good sense: your scriptures are valuable from historical perspective as a record of mankinds endeavors into the realms of abstraction. They are in historical terms about as important as cave drawings.

Very good.

Oh, I can assure you from my perspective there is no mistake. You're a cultist. End of story.

Wow, such superior reasoning skills.

Truly telling. What a loser.

This is why you are boring. All you can do is insult, you don't actually have anything to say.

If you were honest, you might just retract your ridiculous statement or yield to superior reasoning in order that you might improve yourself.

There would be no point in retracting my statement, as it would still be true to me. It is not the material that validates something. I admit your reasoning skills are good, you obviously work out. But where you fall like a lead weight, is your content, it is seriously lacking.

It's obvious that you only seek to promote your unfounded, ridiculous rhetoric.

Here you are assuming, which seem to be the basis of your arguments relating to God. The truth of the matter is, you're wrong, i can't prove it, but i know. If you are going to regard yourself as a superior reasoner to myself, then at least have the decency to try and understand where i'm coming from.

In the hope that you are really reasonable.
Jan Ardena.

 

[Lemming3k]

As for the theory of creation.... well it is the only one left between the theories. As for the remark that who created the creator, the question contradicts itself, if the creator was created than it wouldn't be a creator, it would be part of creation and that which created it would be the creator, hence, there is only one creator!!

You missed the entire point, without a previous creator the creator would have just always existed, it is unreasonable to say a creator can always exist but 'something' else(no matter how small) cant have.

 

[Alpha]

fairy-tale
Function: adjective
: characteristic of or suitable to a fairy tale; especially : marked by seemingly unreal beauty, perfection, luck, or happiness

fairy tale
n.

1. A fanciful tale of legendary deeds and creatures, usually intended for children.
2. A fictitious, highly fanciful story or explanation.

"The scriptures aren't that great" is your opinion.

And that they are is your opinion. My opinion has evidence to support it. I'm not aware of any for yours, but if you are willing to provide some...

Within the context of the dialouge, it was not a claim. It was a possible alternative response to the question. I wasn't sure whether to put a question mark or not as i didn't intend it to be a question. I suppose it could be called a rhetorical question.

You made a claim. The exact claim was: "Because it is not a concept."
You didn't intend it to be a question, so you made it a statement, fine. Even if it was intended to be a rhetorical question, it's still something you're claiming to be true, regardless of how you're making the claim. How is it not a concept?

That's fair enough, but unless you show when the scriptures were created/conceptualised, don't come to me with "its a FACT" because i will brand you a liar.

And I would call you a moron for calling someone a liar with absolutely zero evidence or reason to believe so.
Which of the following do you contest?
1 - The bible is a book and was therefore written.
2 - In order for a man to write an original book he must have some idea/concept of what he's writing.
3 - The bible was written by men.

Firstly, you only believe that God is a concept, don't band it about as a fact.

Actually, I think only you believe that God is not a concept. I've not encountered anyone else who would contest the issue.

Secondly, the scriptures are the current source of information, they connect essentially with the humans who choose that conection. So how can they be irrelevant.

A source of what information? No relevant information. Scripture is not relevant because we are discussing whether or not there's a concept known as 'God'. It simply has no bearing.

I haven't, i have been trying to get you or someone like you to substantiate the claim that God was created by humans.

Who has made such a claim (in this thread)?

This nonesense is abound in every atheist chatroom and message board. Now please stop evading the question and produce the evidence to support this wide belief. Asking "who other than humans could have created this idea," is not accepted as evidence, but as belief.

Actually, it's neither. It's a (usually rhetorical) question.

Why shouldn't i question it?

'Cause if you don't think humans originated the concept, then who? Aliens? Evil pink bunnies from the moon? I don't think the bible accounts for on the moon or anywhere else, so that kinda rules them out, don't you think? Maybe apes taught us? Doubt you'd agree with that either.

Lets not get casual here. You claim that God is a human concept, is fact. Now prove it, or shut up. If you're honest and say i believe that God is a human concept" you'll hear nothing more from me.

I am being 'honest', and it is a fact that humans have a concept/idea/notion/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-a-thought-of-something of God. I think it obvious that humans originated it. Even if there are aliens out there with the concept of God who originated it before us, we still originated it ourselves (it's irrelevant whether or not we were the first).

It depends on how you use the term "surpernaturally inspired".
There was a film a while back called "Entity", i don't know if you remember. In it the main character was being sexually assaulted by an unseen entity. This film was based on the true accounts of person in real life.

Am I supposed to believe that? More likely the person doesn't want to admit who did it and made up some wacky story. Or went insane because of it. Who knows, I never saw the movie and don't know anything of the story. You didn't answer the question. I mean exactly what it means. How does it matter what is meant by "supernaturally inspired"?

People generate ideas about a vast variety of things so why would the god concept be any different? Science fiction writers create ideas far more bizarre than mere gods. Are you suggesting that their ideas are supernaturally inspired?

You implied only supernaturally inspired ideas could be on par with those in scripture yet there are many ideas that are bigger/better/more useful/weirder/etc. So that implies their ideas are supernaturally inspired, by that reasoning, though they are not.

"Huh? Christianity isn't religion?"

Of course it isn't.

Yeah, 'cause it's so obvious...

Some Christians may beg to differ, i've no doubt, but it is not religion. The point of Christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Lord Jesus Christ. How he lived, was the very embodiment of religion.

I think you don't understand what 'religion' means, or perhaps you don't understand what Christianity is.
- http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Religion
- http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Christianity

Religion itself cannot be blamed for the actions of men.

Religion can indeed be blamed.

Bearing in mind, my above statement, how could Jesus' life and teachings be harmfull?

Religion is a set of beliefs that guide one's actions. How could one's beliefs not be able to be blamed for one's actions?

Yes there is a difference, the supernatural does exist, unless you are saying the accounts of millions if not billions of people past, present and no-doubt future, are nothing but nonsense.

You're confusing the two uses of "supernatural". The supernatural, meaning beyond the laws of nature (as they really are), is meaningless. Supernatural, meaning beyond the laws of nature as we understand them, is something else. Where are you getting these numbers of accounts of the supernatural from? Speculation, or something more?

At the moment you are just like every other (or most) atheist(s) on these threads, just shouting and stamping like little children until you get your own way.

LOL, a pity you see it that way. I've done no shouting or immature behaviour on this thread. And it's not about getting my own way.

I never thought this was a debate to begin with. If you want to debate, then have some real idea about religion, spirituality and God, then use what you know to formulate an argument which brings to light your point.

How about you formulate an argument which demonstrates your claim that there's no God concept, like I've been trying to get you to?

I can see how you come to that conclusion, but i don't think it is as simple as that. Knowledge and awareness are not the same thing.

That's right, but awareness is necessary for knowledge.

"If you're the first, then no one has the knowledge, and therefore the knowledge doesn't exist yet."

a) If it is knowledge, then someone knows, as it the definition of knowledge.
b) You can never know if you're the first, but it is safe to assume there is a first.

That doesn't contradict my statement in any way...

I don't see the point. It would only fall on deaf ears.

Why are you here, at sciforums?

"If there is then speak up."

I don't regard this as knowledge.
I bet your real name isn't Alpha; but who cares?

Indeed, I never claimed it was.
How can you say it's not knowledge? She made the choice for my name, and once she made the choice she obviously knew what she had chosen, and that it was my name. She obviously was the first to know, as she chose it and was the one to first proclaim it. How is it not knowledge? That makes no sense. You really should have explained that, instead of making me waste time asking for an explanation.

Where is the evidence that this chap was the first ever person to discover Pluto?

*Sigh* Try looking. Go read some friggin books. This is hardly relevant. You are simply drawing this out in every possible way to delay the inevitable.

Who's evading?

You.

If you become a good little boy, i might engage in some dialouge with you, regarding the subject.

who are you to judge the morality of my actions?

Who's judging?

You. The statement "if you become a good little boy" directly implies I'm not "a good little boy". That is a judgement of the morality of my behaviour.

To engage in the requested dialouge with you would be pointless. Why? Because you are not interested in the subject, as far as you are concerned, you already have the answers.

You don't seem to understand the point of debate then. I have searched, learned, debated, etc., and believe I am reasonably close to the answers of many of my questions. It is not relevant whether I think I have the answer to the point of discussion. If I didn't think my position was right, then why would I debate it? I am open minded though, and will certainly accept when I'm wrong and lose a debate. You are continuing to evade, and I believe it is because you cannot justify your position. Perhaps you believe you can, but with the continued evasion, that seems less and less likely.

My claim is not dependant. My claim is my opinion and i am prepared to change my opinion if you or anyone can show me any humans who have.

The truth of your claim is dependant.

That you have taken what were seemingly straight-forward questions, then try to brand me as lacking intellectual honesty, is actually intellectually dishonest.

You don't even understand what dishonesty is. You seem to think every time someone makes a mistake/error that they are lying. BS.

you don't actually have anything to say.

Do you?

As for the remark that who created the creator, the question contradicts itself, if the creator was created than it wouldn't be a creator,

Not so, creators are created all the time.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Alpha,

Even if it was intended to be a rhetorical question, it's still something you're claiming to be true,

No it's not. It was an alternative point of view to the question which was raised. A... throwing a suggestion in the pot kind of point. So stop this nonsense avoidance and back your claim.

How is it not a concept?

You have now put the question in reletive mode.
It can be seen as a concept which is how you see it, but to state it as a fact which is what you are doing, means you have to give proof of evidence, which up till now you have avoided.
My position (putting you in the picture) is that i believe that God is real and we are individual parts and parcels of His Being. I don't believe that He is a created concept by and for humans.

And I would call you a moron for calling someone a liar with absolutely zero evidence or reason to believe so.

If you claim a statement is FACT, but provide no proof of evidence to substantiate your claim, and you consider to do so despite appeals, then you are a liar.

2 - In order for a man to write an original book he must have some idea/concept of what he's writing.

You are assuming that the writing of the books of the Bible was the start of God. You are also assuming that because a book is an original, the author must have come up with the contents entirely out of his own mind. You seemingly fail to admit the possibility that the person is being dictated to or inspired.

Actually, I think only you believe that God is not a concept. I've not encountered anyone else who would contest the issue.

I am not concerned with what he/she thinks. I want to proof of your claim that God is an idea originated by man.

A source of what information?
No relevant information.

Not only is this your personal opinion, but it has zero relevance to the discussion.

Scripture is not relevant because we are discussing whether or not there's a concept known as 'God'. It simply has no bearing.

We're discussion a claim that God was an idea created by man, and the scriptures are relevant because they are inspired by God (from a theistic viewpoint).

Who has made such a claim (in this thread)?

So the idea that God was created by the minds of men, was not claimed by you or anyone in this thread, and is therefore a belief?

Actually, it's neither. It's a (usually rhetorical) question.

And if accepted is nothing more than a belief?

'Cause if you don't think humans originated the concept, then who?

Haven't you been paying attention? I don't think it was a concept.

Aliens?

If it was created, then intllegent Aliens (beings we have not encountered) could be a possibility, unless you think such beings do not exist.

I am being 'honest', and it is a fact that humans have a concept/idea/notion/whatever-the-hell-you-want-to-call-a-thought-of-something of God. I think it obvious that humans originated it.

How would humans at that time understand that the universe is expanding, as proclaimed in the Qur'an, when it was only a few years ago it was discovered? Were the early humans (from a macro-evolution POV) intelligently advanced compared with modern humans?

Even if there are aliens out there with the concept of God who originated it before us, we still originated it ourselves (it's irrelevant whether or not we were the first).

LOL! We are discussing the first, haven't you been paying attention. It has been claimed that God was created in the minds of men, and now your trying to switch. I think we both know that that claim amounts to nothing more than a belief.

Am I supposed to believe that?

What you believe is irrelevant in this case. Whether or not you think its true it is a supernatural tale and the writer of the film/screenplay was inspired by the supernatural element.
http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=5947

How does it matter what is meant by "supernaturally inspired"?

What do you mean "how does it matter?" If you mean why does it matter, it matters because in a discussion it is best to have an understanding of what we are talking about.

Yeah, 'cause it's so obvious...

Well obviously not to you.
Christianity is undoubtedly "a religion" but it is not the thing (religion) itself. The NYPD is a government organisation, but it is not the government.

I think you don't understand what 'religion' means,

Religion is a spiritual/essential education to bring the subject to the point of self-realisation and his relationship with God. Religious institutions vary according to time, place and circumstance, but the essence always remains the same. That essence is "Religion."
When religions lose their way, or become userped by selfish leaders it becomes irreligious or irreligion.

Religion is a set of beliefs that guide one's actions. How could one's beliefs not be able to be blamed for one's actions?

If the person is misinformed or acting out of ignorance or their own selfish interest, then the person, institution or governing body is to be blamed.

You're confusing the two uses of "supernatural".

You are the one with this two meanings lark.

1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

Where are you getting these numbers of accounts of the supernatural from? Speculation, or something more?

The evil pink bunnies on the moon.

How about you formulate an argument which demonstrates your claim that there's no God concept, like I've been trying to get you to?

As the author of the statement used, i am telling you that it was not a claim, if you do not believe me, there is nothing i can do about.

Why are you here, at sciforums?

I enjoy arguing with atheists among other things.

*Sigh* Try looking. Go read some friggin books. This is hardly relevant. You are simply drawing this out in every possible way to delay the inevitable.

So i will find proof of evidence that he was the very first person to discover Pluto? That's what you're saying. Right?

You. The statement "if you become a good little boy" directly implies I'm not "a good little boy".

I'm just playin...that's all. I do not know you you could be male or female young or old. There's no way i could know unless you tell me, so don't take these jibes seriously.

You are continuing to evade, and I believe it is because you cannot justify your position.

My position is that i believe in God, my self, my actions and my re-actions justify my position regardless of what i think.
What is your position?

The truth of your claim is dependant.

Upon what?

You don't even understand what dishonesty is. You seem to think every time someone makes a mistake/error that they are lying. BS.

That is like, so not true.

Do you?

Yes, i do have things to say. And i say them. Look at our discussions, we have touched on quite a few things and i've only reffered you to dictionary definitions twice. But the bulk of my dialouge comes from me, not scriptures or scriptoral sources. You will find this consistent with me

Jan Ardena.

 

[Neildo]

The point of Christianity is to follow in the footsteps of Lord Jesus Christ

I just wish they'd hurry up and get to the crucifiction part .

Lol, now that's funny. :lol:

- N

 

[Alpha]

No it's not. It was an alternative point of view to the question which was raised. A... throwing a suggestion in the pot kind of point. So stop this nonsense avoidance and back your claim.

You don't want to support your claim/suggestion, then fine, withdraw it.

It can be seen as a concept which is how you see it, but to state it as a fact which is what you are doing, means you have to give proof of evidence, which up till now you have avoided.

What are you talking about? I need to prove I have a concept of God? How about you prove to me that you exist? Prove you're more than a voice in my head.

My position (putting you in the picture) is that i believe that God is real and we are individual parts and parcels of His Being. I don't believe that He is a created concept by and for humans.

I think what you are saying is that God is not just a concept. If that's the case, then I would ask you to support that claim.

If you claim a statement is FACT, but provide no proof of evidence to substantiate your claim, and you consider to do so despite appeals, then you are a liar.

Then you don't know what a 'liar' is and I don't care if you label me with terms you don't understand. You may believe I'm a liar if I don't back up a claim, but that is not substantiated. You are free to believe what you wish, but the fact is, I believe what I say, and therefore am not lying.

"2 - In order for a man to write an original book he must have some idea/concept of what he's writing."

You are assuming that the writing of the books of the Bible was the start of God.

Oh no I'm not. Don't put words in my mouth. Obviously the concept of God did not first appear in the bible.

You are also assuming that because a book is an original, the author must have come up with the contents entirely out of his own mind.

No, I'm not assuming that either. Stop putting words in my mouth. Stay with me now (as you're so fond of saying ).

You seemingly fail to admit the possibility that the person is being dictated to or inspired.

Being inspired or dictated to does not preclude that the concept was in the author's mind. Keep in mind, if he was inspired or dictated to, then the bible is not an original work of it's authors.

"Actually, I think only you believe that God is not a concept. I've not encountered anyone else who would contest the issue."

I am not concerned with what he/she thinks. I want to proof of your claim that God is an idea originated by man.

LOL, did you even read what I posted? That 'he/she' I referred to is you. I did not claim God is a concept originated by man. I claimed the concept of God is originated by man. You don't seem to realize there's a difference between the concept of something and the actual thing itself. You seem to contest that God exists, but the concept doesn't, while I contest that the concept does exist, but God doesn't.

"A source of what information?"
"No relevant information."

Not only is this your personal opinion, but it has zero relevance to the discussion.

The scriptures have zero relevance to the discussion (of whether the concept of God exists). It's not a matter of opinion, as it is an objective claim which can be verified or disproven.

"Scripture is not relevant because we are discussing whether or not there's a concept known as 'God'. It simply has no bearing."

We're discussion a claim that God was an idea created by man, and the scriptures are relevant because they are inspired by God (from a theistic viewpoint).

That's not my claim. Further, even if the scriptures were inspired by God, it still has no bearing on whether man created a concept of God.

How would humans at that time understand that the universe is expanding, as proclaimed in the Qur'an, when it was only a few years ago it was discovered? Were the early humans (from a macro-evolution POV) intelligently advanced compared with modern humans?

WTF are you on about? How is this relevant? There are any number of reasons they could have come to that conclusion. How did the Dogon tribe aquire their astronomical knowledge before scientists? They claim aliens told them. And it was more than a few years ago that it was learned the universe is expanding.

LOL! We are discussing the first, haven't you been paying attention. It has been claimed that God was created in the minds of men, and now your trying to switch. I think we both know that that claim amounts to nothing more than a belief.

Switch what?

What you believe is irrelevant in this case. Whether or not you think its true it is a supernatural tale and the writer of the film/screenplay was inspired by the supernatural element.

Whether or not you believe it's true is irrelevant, and the writer was not inspired by a supernatural element. The writer wrote a work of fiction based on a true story, so where's the inspiration?

Christianity is undoubtedly "a religion" but it is not the thing (religion) itself.

That is exactly what it is.

The NYPD is a government organisation, but it is not the government.

Not the same thing, not relevant.

You are the one with this two meanings lark.

1 : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a : departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b : attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

Those two definitions pretty much agree with the two definitions I gave. The first one there is 'beyond the laws of nature as they are', the second is 'beyond the laws of nature as we see them'. "...to appear to transcend the laws of nature".

"Where are you getting these numbers of accounts of the supernatural from? Speculation, or something more?"

The evil pink bunnies on the moon.

I knew it! Hehehe

So i will find proof of evidence that he was the very first person to discover Pluto? That's what you're saying. Right?

Er, 'proof of evidence'? Something like that. So what if he wasn't? And hell, even if somehow he wasn't, someone was, and there are other examples, making the proof/disproof of this one not really relevant.

I'm just playin...that's all. I do not know you you could be male or female young or old. There's no way i could know unless you tell me, so don't take these jibes seriously.

Righty then.

My position is that i believe in God, my self, my actions and my re-actions justify my position regardless of what i think.
What is your position?

My position is that God does not exist, and that the idea was created by man, though I didn't claim so in this thread previously.

"The truth of your claim is dependant."

Upon what?

See the claim and response.

 

[SnakeLord]

I haven't, i have been trying to get you or someone like you to substantiate the claim that God was created by humans.

Well I'll cheer you up then and say "god was created by humans".

apollo is quite clearly a human creation, as is odin and one of those elephant headed gods of the hindus. The same can be said of yhwh, jesus, abellio, zeus, vishnu, allah, and superman.

I get the distinct feeling that you're only going to contest one of these. So even though you've asked other people, it seems you can answer your own questions - and indeed substantiate the answer for yourself. Instead of asking us, ask why you would state zeus is a creation of man. Once you've worked out how you substantiate that, you have the answer you seek.

 

[SpyMoose]

Our lord and savior, superman, came from krypton to defend truth justice and the American way, how dare you profane his name by comparing him to some mere Zeus or Jesus.

 

[Alpha]

Because your claims are unreasonable, and there's little difference between them; ie. they're both myths.

 

[SnakeLord]

SpyMoose: I am deeply offended that Superman cares not of the world but only for a city or two in America. I always noticed this with super powerful beings. For some reason they completely ignore the rest of humanity while focusing their powers and time on one reasonably small community.

It isn't only Superman that's like this, but allah, yhwh, jesus and every single deity known to mankind.

If we were to "believe" that these beings have been created by humans, then we could understand - after all, it is unlikely that a muslim would create a deity that's job is to ensure Welsh catholics go to heaven, or that israelites would create a deity that helps the egyptians kill the israelites..

However.. if we were to believe that it was vice versa, and that an all poweful, all knowing and all present entity worked solely for one small selection of people, it would be harder to appreciate as being real in any way whatsoever.

I always felt sorry for jewish children, muslim children and so on that get completely ignored by our beloved santa claus.

It seems gods and other similar beings are the most racist and prejudice of all living things.

 

[RawThinkTank]

In the beginning there were humans, they used to get attacked by wild animals. They evolved fighting them and hence became creative, but could not understand who was their creator as they assumed when they could create things. So they thought he must be supreme. When some got attacked by animals they thought of the almighty, some died and some escaped. Those who escaped were able to tell that almighty saved them and those who died were eaten.

Thus GOD was born, About 15 to 2o thousand years ago. I am result of that evolution. Due to god we had different cultures countries kings and rest is history. Now lets evolve further and find what started the universe, instead of praying the GOD to help us find that.

 

[RawThinkTank]

RawThinkTank,

If I had prayed god then it would have been to stop god existing in the minds of humans.

Hehehehe!
And you say i'm dumb.

How about this new commandment –
“He Who Believes in God TShall Perish In The 21 Century.”

Is this what you personally want?

I guess only dumb people pray as they can’t do things on their own; In evolution Dumb cant survive.

....and the rats that apes evolved from, or was it the first sea worms that evolved in to fish and then amphibians and then rats, or was it the first cell or virus ?

Where is the evidence of macroevolution why you confidently assert your statement as fact?

Now , r u even going to challenge evolution or just getin carried by ur side ?

My close relative is in constant grave pain for last 1 year, Y is god not helping her, she had great faith in him all her life, and prayed all her life every day for 50yrs and now regrets it, and she definitely is a good great person.

Happiness and sadness, pain and pleasure, are all part of life. It doesn't matter how much we seek happiness or pleasure, we only get it when we get it. We must learn to accept whatever condition is put upon us, that is the path to real happiness and is the test of real character.

When U will suffer the same pain , then contact me at RawThinkTank@linux.net

I believe all those who pray r selfish and only selfish motives make them pray, how primitive, they all want something for nothing.

Be careful who you accuse. The truth is you don't know whether all who pray are selfish, yet you judge them. Are you judging them by your own standard?

No prayers is going to give me more than what my actions give me.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Katazia,

You haven’t proved that anything or anyone else could have created such ideas let alone that they have.

I have not claimed that God was not created by humans, i beleive that he wasn't. You on the other claim that He was created by humans, hence, originally a human concept. If you think it is a fact then please state why. If you think it is obvious that He must have been created, then it is your opinion/belief and not a fact.

And until then it is simply foolish to not conclude that humans created these ideas.

We are actually discussing whether God was an idea created by man, so if think you know that this was the case then reveal the fact or admit that it is only a belief.

You must be joking. Go read some history books.

I'm not joking. And i'm asking you. Of course if you're just saying that for effect then leave it alone.

Prove to me that people did not write/design/device/develop these scriptures.

Like i said, i believe that God is not an idea created by man. I don't believe any kind of proof can be formulated as it is not a physical thing.

If you can’t then why isn’t your claim simply a baseless fantasy?

Try and keep this in mind, i'm not the one making a claim, and i freely admit that my believe cannot be proven via scientific method, but you are making a claim and as such are required to substantiate it if challenged. It doesn't matter what you think of my belief or what i think of yours.

The idea of a god is a concept.

Anything and everything in that regard can be a concept. But i am interested in the claim that God is an idea created by Humans, meaning that God as scriptoraly understood, does actually not exist. Now for the last time is this a fact or a belief?

Do you really believe that these fictional stories were the work of gods and not imaginative humans?

That wasn't your question. You asked; Are you suggesting that their ideas are supernaturally inspired? This could mean two things, they are directly inspired by supernatural events, or by supernatural accounts. We do not know which of the two inspired them, but by the fruits of their labour we can know that some kind inspiration took place.
And who mentioned anything about gods in particular?

But humans will have written these scriptures. Prove that there is something else that could have written/designed/devised them.

Stop twisting the subject. You claim that God is a creation of man, back up your claim or adimit it is a belief.

Prove that humans did not devise these scriptures. Your claim has no credibility without some form of proof.

I have made no claim, my position is that i believe. I have read and studied alot of scriptures from different eras. One thing that is striking is that they all say the same thing when it comes to the religion. There is no deviation as to the nature of God, and the nature of spirit, they are all the same. I do not know of any number of human cultures that are prepared to work together for so long especially while fighting wars and so on. Even today we see people fighting over whose religion is right, but yet the very religions they fight over say the same thing. So i fail to see how the sciptures could be inspired by humans.

I have spent a great deal of time thinking about faith and it only means one thing in the religious sense – belief without evidence. The epitome of irrationality.

That is because you are heavily bias and want to see faith in that light.

You mean like a 3 headed invisible puntivirous? Show me the truth in that statement.

Where did you get the idea of 3?
What is a head?
Does this creature have a form?
Why does it have a form?
Where did you get the idea of a form from?
Why did you spell the name like that?
All these question will undoubtedly lead to some kind of basis in your life which you regard as truth. I challenge to describe something which is based soley on imagination without any relation to anything you have every experienced, which may be regarded as truth, or personal truth.

Anything detectable by the senses or mathematics.

This is why we don't see eye to eye. You suppress your human potential, IMO.

Which definition do you mean; humans have created millions of them.

Lets not worry what humans do or don't do, i'm talking about God in the scriptures. There is only one God, He may have innumerable aspects to His personality, but He is the one Creator, Maintainer, and Destroyer of this material world.

If I chose the pantheist idea of God that Einstein used then the universe has no personality other than the perfect order as revealed through physics.

You clearly have no idea of how Einstein saw God, so lets not go there. Okay?


But that is no indication that something imaginary like a god will ever be detected.

Of course not, because it is out modern sciences domain. The best such an art can do is understand that this universe is governed by intelligence and as such can only conclude that intelligence=person=God (Suprerme Being).

No. The “objects” were always there but the knowledge of them didn’t exist until we discovered them.

Whose we? The individual, the entire human race past and present, beings that may live on other planets or maybe even planets within other universes? Could you sort of narrow it down please?

Before we discover something we wouldn’t “know” about it, correct? Now read your definition above “Knowledge means "to know". Now put the two pieces of information together. If we don’t know this something then the knowledge of that something does not exist, right? Assume for the sake of this argument that no one else has discovered it beforehand.

Knowledge means "to know". Not "we know", "i know" or "you know", it means to know. That means it is already known by someone, otherwise we could say anything and regard it as knowledge (which happens regularly). To assume that something has not been discovered, is to act like you KNOW it hasn't been discovered, and if that knowledge is not correct, then how can anything from that point be correct.

Do you see how you confused the existence of an object with the knowledge of the object?

There is no confusion on my part, I regard knowledge of the object as secondary knowledge, and regard knowledge its origin as knowledge.

I didn’t need to be put straight.

On the contrary.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Jan Ardena]

RawThinkTank

I guess only dumb people pray as they can’t do things on their own; In evolution Dumb cant survive.

So what you're saying is that, in the 21st century evolution begins and he who belives in God shall perish?

Now , r u even going to challenge evolution or just getin carried by ur side ?

No i'm not going to challenge evolution, just the absurd idea of macroevolution. So i will ask again where is the evidence.
Alpha, is you're reading, i have seen talk-origin.

When U will suffer the same pain , then contact me at RawThinkTank@linux.net

My response had nothing to do with empathy. I believe it is the best way to get over distress. I am fully aware that anything can happen to anyone (including me) at any time, that no one is exempt from pain an suffering.

No prayers is going to give me more than what my actions give me.

Praying is an action.

I feel sorry for U Jan Adrena, After 1,291 postings U could not evolve even 1/10 of what I am.

Why could i not?
Are you not human, why you are so much more evolved than me. I imagine 1/10 to be hundreds of thousands of years more advanced.

This planet belongs to my specie, we r going to inherit it from humans as we r theirs direct descendants.

What species is this?

So get tha hell off from my planet. We will not go in to the dark without a fight , we will further evolve. Leave or U may face extinction.

Alpha, that picture isn't you is it?

Jan Ardena.

 

[Alpha]

Alpha, that picture isn't you is it?

Why do you ask?

I noticed you haven't replied to my posts...
You mentioned the scriptures you refer to are from the Qu'ran. In that case, how do you answer these contradictions with itself:

---[Have some passages in the Qur'an been abrogated?

4:82
Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.
6:34
There is none to alter the decisions of Allah.
6:115
Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words.
10:64
There is no changing the Words of Allah.
18:27
And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words.

VS.

2:106
Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.
16:101
And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

---[How many angels spoke to Mary?

19:16-19
And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God- fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.

VS.

3:42
And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.
3:45
(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

---[Who was Abraham's father?

6:74
(Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar....

VS.

Genesis 11:26
Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram....

---[How long is Allah's day?

22:47
A Day with Allah is as a thousand years of what ye reckon.
32:5
He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.

VS.

70:4 Unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years

---[Who chooses the devils to be friends of unbelievers?

7:27
We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.
7:30
A party hath He led aright, while error hath just hold over (another) party, for lo! they choose the devils for protecting supporters instead of Allah and deem that they are rightly guided.

---[Will all Christians go to hell?

3:85
Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

5:72
They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

VS.

2:62
Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

5:69
Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

---[How should Jews and Christians be treated?

2:109
Many of the people of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers.... Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command.

VS.

9:29
Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah.

---[Which came first, heaven or earth?

79:27-30
Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. And after that He spread the earth....

VS.

2:29
He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens.
41:9-12
Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... Then turned He to the heaven ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days ....

---[Will Allah forgive anything?

4:110
Yet whoso doeth evil or wrongeth his own soul, then seeketh pardon of Allah, will find Allah Forgiving, Merciful.

VS.

4:48
Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him.
4:116
Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto Him.
4:137
Those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them.
4:168
Those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them.
9:80
Ask forgiveness for them (O Muhammad), or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger.
47:34
Those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.
63:3-6
They believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed so that they understand not. ... Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them.

---[How long did it take to create the heavens and the earth?

7:54
Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.
10:3
Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.
11:7
And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.
50:38
We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six Days.
57:4
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.

VS.

41:9-12
Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days....

---[What was man created from?

25:54
And He it is Who hath created man from water...
24:45
Allah hath created every animal of water.

VS.

96:1-2
In the name of thy Lord Who createth ... man from a clot.

VS.

15:26
We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered....
32:7
He began the creation of man from clay.
38:71
When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire.
55:14
He created man of clay like the potter's.

VS.

30:20
And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely!
35:11
Allah created you from dust....

---[Is Allah merciful?

1:1, 3, 163
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
2:37, 54
He is the relenting, the Merciful.
2:128
Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful.
2:143
For Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.
2:160
I am the Relenting, the Merciful.
2:173, 182, 192, 199, 218
Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

VS.

2:7
Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering.
2:17
Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see.
4:56
Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment.
4:168-9
Lo! those who disbelieve and deal wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road, Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah.
5:33
The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.
7:50
And the dwellers of the Fire cry out unto the dwellers of the Garden: Pour on us some water or some wherewith Allah hath provided you. They say: Lo! Allah hath forbidden both to disbelievers (in His guidance).

---[Does Allah make distinctions between His messengers?

2:253
Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree.

VS.

2:285
We make no distinction between any of His messengers.

---[Did one of Noah's sons die in the flood?

11:42-43
Noah cried unto his son and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers. He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned.

VS.

21:76
And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and saved him and his household from the great affliction.
37:75-77
And Noah verily prayed unto Us, and gracious was the Hearer of his prayer. And We saved him and his household from the great distress, And made his seed the survivors.

---[When did the people repent for worshiping the golden calf?

7: 148-150
And the folk of Moses, after (he left them), chose a calf (for worship), (made) out of their ornaments, of saffron hue, which gave a lowing sound. Saw they not that it spake not unto them nor guided them to any way? They chose it, and became wrong-doers. And when they feared the consequences thereof and saw that they had gone astray, they said: Unless our Lord have mercy on us and forgive us, we verily are of the lost. And when Moses returned unto his people....

VS.

20: 88-91
Then he produced for them a calf, of saffron hue, which gave forth a lowing sound. And they cried: This is your god and the god of Moses, but he hath forgotten. See they not, then, that it returneth no saying unto them and possesseth for them neither hurt nor use? And Aaron indeed had told them beforehand: O my people! Ye are but being seduced therewith, for lo! your Lord is the Beneficent, so follow me and obey my order. They said: We shall by no means cease to be its votaries till Moses return unto us.

---[Can a man treat his wives fairly?

4:3
Marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess.

VS.

4:129
Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so).

And even more are here.