Is Athiesm The Answer?
- Thread starter Yazdajerd
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I agree - really there doesn't have to be a point.Katazia said:
So you wake up each morning thinking – “How can I serve ALL in humility this fine day?”§outh§tar said:
How exactly do you do that in a way that is any different than the millions of Atheists that dedicate themselves to giving Humanity (not Humility)
a lift up?Individually there many reasons for living - if that is how “point” is interpreted. However, if it is as a “why are we here” general question (towards all of humanity). Then there really is no implicit “point” to our existence – fluke would be more like it. Which is why I asked the question. Some people seem to think that Atheists have a lesser reason for living versus Theists. Which is stupid. As if in the “act” of praying to an imaginary thingy they somehow acquire a point to life. Silly really.
So I wondered what is the point to life? §outh§tar said to serve. I wondered in real terms (not just wishful thinking but actually getting off your arse and doing something) - How do you go about serving? Why would God want you to anyway?
RawThinkTank,
Na, He who depends on god and prays instead of action shall perish.
In case you have'nt noticed, everybody and everything perishes in due course of time.
Some advice;
Read the scriptures, understand what the "self" is, and how it is different in quality to the body, then get back to me.
She who thinks less than he who doesn’t shall be out competed in survival of the fittest.
a) If you want to know what i think, then ask, don't assume.
b) The fittest only survive a fraction longer than the weaker, in the end all perish. The intelligent person does not concern themself with the body over and beyond the necessery necessities.
And What gave U wrongfooly the idea of beginning evolution, are U trying to stray this debate delebrately ?
I'm not straying, period. By your personalised commandment it seemed you picked out the 21st century as if it was a special time.
Any body who knows what exactly evolution is wont dare to ask suggest such a henius question here.
I am well aware of what "evolution" is and what has been observed. You on the other hand are under the illusion that genetic variation over time causes the emergence of entirely new and advanced species. You say it as though it is an obvious truth, axiomatic even. I'm just curious as to how you KNOW.
Where is the scientific evidence which substantiates this claim?
I expect, as a member of the RATIONALIST species, you can satisfy my request.
As for my enquiry being heinous, WTF are you on about?
And even if some did he would have proposed an alternative scientific theory.
First prove that what you propose is a scientific theory, then we'll take it from there.
Infact this action is so detrimental that people depending on such acting people will have to suffer.
How can praying be detrimental? Everyday people are suffering in everyway, it doesn't matter whether they are dependant on prayer or science and technology. Why, as a rationalist are the people who depend on prayer going to suffer more than anyone else, why you make such a point?
It has actually with held human evolution in wrong direction for a long time.
That's just stupidity.
But not any more because I have taken this crusade to end this evil once and for all.
What evil?
Praying?
You're a nutter, and you say you are a rationalist. I notice none of your fellow "rationalists" step in to curb the embarassment of your proffesed species. I can only conclude that they regard your nonsense as "rational" which explains alot of things. LOL!!
Me humans ? well, when I compare myself to people like U then there remains absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is something wrong with people like U.
I don't take seriously what you have in your mind, especially having dialouged with you. If you can redeem yourself my stance will change, but not untill.
Rationalist.
It is not a species.
We accept the world as it is and not as it seems and that includes the possibility of gods existence ( and hence I am not Atheist ( sorry guys ) ) .
Hahahahah!!!!!
Why do you have to apologise because you're not atheist? Are you afraid of something?
Alpha is just a medium......
Between what?
The message – “ We have the right to evolve beyond U , so stop mingling in it ”
Evolve all you like, i won't try and stop ya.
I take those words back over my dead body.
As a "rationalist" one who sees the world as it is. Are you sure about that?
Jan Ardena.
Na, He who depends on god and prays instead of action shall perish.
In case you have'nt noticed, everybody and everything perishes in due course of time.
Some advice;
Read the scriptures, understand what the "self" is, and how it is different in quality to the body, then get back to me.
She who thinks less than he who doesn’t shall be out competed in survival of the fittest.
a) If you want to know what i think, then ask, don't assume.
b) The fittest only survive a fraction longer than the weaker, in the end all perish. The intelligent person does not concern themself with the body over and beyond the necessery necessities.
And What gave U wrongfooly the idea of beginning evolution, are U trying to stray this debate delebrately ?
I'm not straying, period. By your personalised commandment it seemed you picked out the 21st century as if it was a special time.
Any body who knows what exactly evolution is wont dare to ask suggest such a henius question here.
I am well aware of what "evolution" is and what has been observed. You on the other hand are under the illusion that genetic variation over time causes the emergence of entirely new and advanced species. You say it as though it is an obvious truth, axiomatic even. I'm just curious as to how you KNOW.
Where is the scientific evidence which substantiates this claim?
I expect, as a member of the RATIONALIST species, you can satisfy my request.
As for my enquiry being heinous, WTF are you on about?
And even if some did he would have proposed an alternative scientific theory.
First prove that what you propose is a scientific theory, then we'll take it from there.
Infact this action is so detrimental that people depending on such acting people will have to suffer.
How can praying be detrimental? Everyday people are suffering in everyway, it doesn't matter whether they are dependant on prayer or science and technology. Why, as a rationalist
are the people who depend on prayer going to suffer more than anyone else, why you make such a point?It has actually with held human evolution in wrong direction for a long time.
That's just stupidity.
But not any more because I have taken this crusade to end this evil once and for all.
What evil?
Praying?
You're a nutter, and you say you are a rationalist. I notice none of your fellow "rationalists" step in to curb the embarassment of your proffesed species. I can only conclude that they regard your nonsense as "rational" which explains alot of things. LOL!!
Me humans ? well, when I compare myself to people like U then there remains absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is something wrong with people like U.
I don't take seriously what you have in your mind, especially having dialouged with you. If you can redeem yourself my stance will change, but not untill.
Rationalist.
It is not a species.
We accept the world as it is and not as it seems and that includes the possibility of gods existence ( and hence I am not Atheist ( sorry guys ) ) .
Hahahahah!!!!!
Why do you have to apologise because you're not atheist? Are you afraid of something?
Alpha is just a medium......
Between what?
The message – “ We have the right to evolve beyond U , so stop mingling in it ”
Evolve all you like, i won't try and stop ya.
I take those words back over my dead body.
As a "rationalist" one who sees the world as it is. Are you sure about that?
Jan Ardena.
Perhaps you're not as knowledgeable about the subject as you thought. I suggest you read www.talkorigins.org.
Praying alone isn't detrimental, but relying solely on praying is. When a child is sick and the parents pray instead of taking the child to a doctor, then it's detrimental.
Alpha,
Not only does that not indicate to me a claim that the universe is expanding,....
The claim was made in the Qur'an.
One may use false premises to reach a true conclusion using valid reasoning.
I may be wrong, but i doubt that the propher Muhammad (PBUH) was aware of logical fallacies back in the day.
Or perhaps the knowledge was passed down from a more advanced people that previously populated earth or parts of it (Atlantis anyone?).
I apreciate that.
At least your not stuck in the "this world is all there is" mode or "if i can't see it, it doesn't exist" mode. Hopefully we will touch more on this concept (reality)
If the Dogon didn't get their knowledge from God, then where from?
As you said (i think), the Dogon got their knowledge from a non-human humanoid source (or alien).
But I believe all knowledge comes from God, either directly or indirectly.
Divine inspiration you nutter!
Talk about shifting the goalposts.
I thought we were discussing "supernatural inspiration.
I believe God is "divine" not supernatural.
Because your definitions were wrong/flawed, as pointed out by the definitions I referenced on dictionary.com. Christianity is a religion, and is what it is.
*sigh*
I guess i'm going to have to school you again Alpha;
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Religion
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Christianity
Religion is the entire education, it incorporates all "religions" that are in the category mentioned in your link.
If we replace the word religion with the word knowledge, you may gain a clearer understanding.
Knowledge, just is.
It does not belong to any category or subject matter.
There exists, institutions of knowledge but these institutions do not constitute the whole of "knowledge". Christianity does not constitute "religion" it is a branch.
The institute of Christianity holds that Jesus Christ's teaching and life example are to be followed as much as possible, therefore it is "a religion" based on "religion".
There are other aspects to religion which are not displayed within the Christian religion, but are in other religions such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc... These are also religions which fall under the banner of "religion."
The fact that each group may believe his religion is "religion" and therefore the only religion, has no bearing on the real meanings.
This quote makes me question whether you understand both the terms "religious" and "fanatic".
I understand why you question that. But to be fair i did state "they could be seen as..."
One description of religious is to be scrupulously and conscientiously faithful, it doesn't necessarily mean to God, it could be to an upheld ideal, which some atheists that i have encountered fit the bill.
Indeed there are people who claim to be religious to God, but aren't, it works both ways.
As i stated earlier, religion is already there. It has its rules and regulations, so the idea that someone can come along and whimfully make a new religion, is for all intent and purpose "irreligion".
So what is the difference between an atheist and a theist if neither follow the proper tennants of "religion".
Atheists don't force their beliefs on others.
Of course they do.
Do you think they are immuned from weakness?
All groups have their strong dominant characters and weak characters. It has nothing to do with atheism or theism, but personal characters.
Perhaps you're not as knowledgeable about the subject as you thought. I suggest you read www.talkorigins.org.
You keep directing me to talk-origins, thanks, but i would prefer you to explain it from your own mind using quotes if necessary. I'm quite sure you would not apreciate it if every time we spoke i said read the the scripture.
There is no difference between microevolution and macroevolution.....
How so?
Genetic variation (micro-evolution) within a population adaptation, which has been observed, would not be enough for the requirement of macro-evolution giving rise to brand new, advanced and different species, there would need to be brand new traits or qualititive changes in the gene pool, to afford this change.
How woud this occur?
Praying alone isn't detrimental, but relying solely on praying is. When a child is sick and the parents pray instead of taking the child to a doctor, then it's detrimental.
Then blame the parents not prayer.
Anything can be detrimental.
Jan Ardena.
Not only does that not indicate to me a claim that the universe is expanding,....
The claim was made in the Qur'an.
One may use false premises to reach a true conclusion using valid reasoning.
I may be wrong, but i doubt that the propher Muhammad (PBUH) was aware of logical fallacies back in the day.
Or perhaps the knowledge was passed down from a more advanced people that previously populated earth or parts of it (Atlantis anyone?).
I apreciate that.
At least your not stuck in the "this world is all there is" mode or "if i can't see it, it doesn't exist" mode. Hopefully we will touch more on this concept (reality)
If the Dogon didn't get their knowledge from God, then where from?
As you said (i think), the Dogon got their knowledge from a non-human humanoid source (or alien).
But I believe all knowledge comes from God, either directly or indirectly.
Divine inspiration you nutter!
Talk about shifting the goalposts.
I thought we were discussing "supernatural inspiration.
I believe God is "divine" not supernatural.
Because your definitions were wrong/flawed, as pointed out by the definitions I referenced on dictionary.com. Christianity is a religion, and is what it is.
*sigh*
I guess i'm going to have to school you again Alpha;
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Religion
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Christianity
Religion is the entire education, it incorporates all "religions" that are in the category mentioned in your link.
If we replace the word religion with the word knowledge, you may gain a clearer understanding.
Knowledge, just is.
It does not belong to any category or subject matter.
There exists, institutions of knowledge but these institutions do not constitute the whole of "knowledge". Christianity does not constitute "religion" it is a branch.
The institute of Christianity holds that Jesus Christ's teaching and life example are to be followed as much as possible, therefore it is "a religion" based on "religion".
There are other aspects to religion which are not displayed within the Christian religion, but are in other religions such as Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism etc... These are also religions which fall under the banner of "religion."
The fact that each group may believe his religion is "religion" and therefore the only religion, has no bearing on the real meanings.
This quote makes me question whether you understand both the terms "religious" and "fanatic".
I understand why you question that. But to be fair i did state "they could be seen as..."
One description of religious is to be scrupulously and conscientiously faithful, it doesn't necessarily mean to God, it could be to an upheld ideal, which some atheists that i have encountered fit the bill.
Indeed there are people who claim to be religious to God, but aren't, it works both ways.
As i stated earlier, religion is already there. It has its rules and regulations, so the idea that someone can come along and whimfully make a new religion, is for all intent and purpose "irreligion".
So what is the difference between an atheist and a theist if neither follow the proper tennants of "religion".
Atheists don't force their beliefs on others.
Of course they do.
Do you think they are immuned from weakness?
All groups have their strong dominant characters and weak characters. It has nothing to do with atheism or theism, but personal characters.
Perhaps you're not as knowledgeable about the subject as you thought. I suggest you read www.talkorigins.org.
You keep directing me to talk-origins, thanks, but i would prefer you to explain it from your own mind using quotes if necessary. I'm quite sure you would not apreciate it if every time we spoke i said read the the scripture.
There is no difference between microevolution and macroevolution.....
How so?
Genetic variation (micro-evolution) within a population adaptation, which has been observed, would not be enough for the requirement of macro-evolution giving rise to brand new, advanced and different species, there would need to be brand new traits or qualititive changes in the gene pool, to afford this change.
How woud this occur?
Praying alone isn't detrimental, but relying solely on praying is. When a child is sick and the parents pray instead of taking the child to a doctor, then it's detrimental.
Then blame the parents not prayer.
Anything can be detrimental.
Jan Ardena.
No, the Qur'an claimed that heaven was being expanded. The heaven they refer to may be either space or the heaven of the afterlife, so it's not necessarily a scientific insight.
Irrelevant. You don't have to understand logic at all to commit logical fallacies. All I'm pointing out is that you can use both true or false premises and come to a true conclusion (though not a false conclusion from true premises). My point is that they could have used completely off the wall reasons to come to that (true) conclusion. Doesn't mean they used true premises because they reached a true conclusion.
Well wouldn't divine inspiration be supernatural?
To say it is something atheists do is a generalization that does not apply, since the only generalization that applies to atheists is that they lack belief in God.
Right, and there is no personal characteristic aside from their shared belief that applies to every atheist.
It's more efficient that way, and the authors of the site are far more knowledgeable in the subject than I. I cite it as an authority on the subject. One which you'd be hard pressed to refute. I don't refer to it every time we speak, only when I notice an ignorant statement is made regarding evolution. You may notice I've made more references to the Qur'an than I have the talkorigins site.
It would occur because the process of evolution dictates it would occur, unless some unknown mechanism were discovered to prevent it. That won't happen by the way, as speciation has already been observed, both in labs and in nature, as a result of the process of evolution. Again I quote:
Genes mutate, which causes differences from generation to generation. When these differences result in the new generation being unable to procreate with previous generations, it is a different species, and their genes will diverge over further generations. Before that point, they will breed with members of the same species, and their genes will combine. Evolution of species, and the genesis of new species due to evolution has been observed and is now known fact.
Michael said:I agree - really there doesn't have to be a point.
So you wake up each morning thinking – “How can I serve ALL in humility this fine day?”
How exactly do you do that in a way that is any different than the millions of Atheists that dedicate themselves to giving Humanity (not Humility)
Individually there many reasons for living - if that is how “point” is interpreted. However, if it is as a “why are we here” general question (towards all of humanity). Then there really is no implicit “point” to our existence – fluke would be more like it. Which is why I asked the question. Some people seem to think that Atheists have a lesser reason for living versus Theists. Which is stupid. As if in the “act” of praying to an imaginary thingy they somehow acquire a point to life. Silly really.
So I wondered what is the point to life? §outh§tar said to serve. I wondered in real terms (not just wishful thinking but actually getting off your arse and doing something) - How do you go about serving? Why would God want you to anyway?
Read the above post. You serve as the opportunity arises, never being idle.
Jan Ardena said:
Here you go: Early events in speciation: polymorphism for hybrid male sterility in Drosophila.
Commentary in BBC: Scientists 'see new species born'
Typical.
As I stated beforehand, Creationists love to say that microevolution = anything we have seen, while macroevolution = anything we haven't seen.
Macroevolution is the result of many microevolutions (basically).
Brand new traits occur in the gene pool due to mutations.
New genetic information can occur when genes duplicate, and one mutates.
For example: One gene = A
This duplicates, and fails to correct itself = AA
Then, on gene mutates = AB
There we go. New trait. Addition of information. This has been observed.
Oh. I see. So, your definition of macroevolution is the creation of a new species?
Here is a list of observed speciation: www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
Here is a list of yet MORE observed speciation: www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
According to your own definition, both microevolution and macroevolution have been observed.
*waits in anticipation for Jan to move the goalposts. Maybe "Nobody has shown a lizard morphing into a bird. So macroevolution doesn't occur. Ha!"*
Like alpha, I seriously suggest that you go to talkorigins. It is not our duty to educate you. If you wish to act as though you have any knowledge of this topic, you must learn some basic biological science.
Observation of the event is not always required in science. One can also observe the 'effect' of the event. For instance, in subatomic physics, where particles are too small, or astronomy, where objects are too far away.
Large changes are observed in the fossil record. It is a FACT that life on Earth has changed drastically over time. Genetics, vestigal organs and homology are damning evidence for the fact of common descent.
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Excellent post mountainhare, but if I may I would like to add my opinion on this kind of whole discussion.
The creationists want observed speciation. The fossil record is full of observed speciation events. However, this doesn't count for them, because they want to see it with their own eyes. Observations in an historical record such as the fossil record as these new observations you mentioned are rather equal in their value I would say.
And it is rather a shame they don't use the same standards to test their own beliefs. How many of them have ever observed a creation event? None I would say. There whole argument is just plain silly.
The creationists want observed speciation. The fossil record is full of observed speciation events. However, this doesn't count for them, because they want to see it with their own eyes. Observations in an historical record such as the fossil record as these new observations you mentioned are rather equal in their value I would say.
And it is rather a shame they don't use the same standards to test their own beliefs. How many of them have ever observed a creation event? None I would say. There whole argument is just plain silly.
Hi Jan, one does not need to read any scriptures to understand thyself!. I've quite read many scriptures, fact is they aided in my becoming an athiest, so in away you may be correct, read the bullshit in ancient scriptures and get to know the deception, of thier literature.
If one needs to really get to know thyself, not any pice of literature will tell you, who you are, why your here, were are you going, what is right, what is wrong, what is moral, amoral, those teachings and knowledge come from reason and using primitive logic written in the scriptures, however one does not need to know the scriptures in order to be moral, or know thyself. One only needs to seek their own defenition, of what is right for them, is right for others, what is moral to them, is moral to others, what others may believe you to be, is not necesserarily what you are, what you believe yourself to be, is what you must define for yourself. Without the aid, or ideas of ancient literature. For those old ancient literature authors were only primitive atempts at philosophy, and metaphisics, though they are a good read, one must not take them literally, unless you agree to stoning some one to death, or crusifying people to death.
Godless.
Dear Jan Ardena,
As if I didn’t know, stop acting childish , get real, I am Raw Think Tank , How dare U insult me by preaching me such trivial matters. And what scriptures, and are they based on reason or more of assumptions ?
Not assuming just gauging. U don’t hav much to offer to me of Ur thoughts. Except as a means of entertainment just like a pet cat.
Wow , U don’t understand a bit of what I quote about survival with respect to evolution.
Off course the best time is now, Here in 21 century, I would have never met an interesting specimen like U without todays technical wonders.
Clearly what is obvious to me is completely oblivious for U.
Human are the evidence of entirely new and advanced species and that was only after 4 billion years.
Unfortunately Ur days r numbered, bcas I am to a human what U r to a cat.
I just did.
Don’t U get it. U r justa human specimen for me. A great subject for me as a humanalogist ( and that’s not only what I am ) , Guess what we r upto with that kinda study ?
now that’s like asking to prove 1 + 1 is 2. And secondly I did not propose anything , it was justa logical conclusion of a scientific mind that unscientific cannot comprehend.
Angelina jolie is a very good example of what can be done without praying. Don’t just sit there in the church , get up and start doing, U r the master of U destiny, Ur actions r its paths.
Now this is the limit , I am getting bored of explaining everything and then being asked same thing over and over again. Typical of an human.
Simple answer is this ( now don’t ask again ) :
Their actions are less compared to us. Its our instinct to overcome hurdles all by our self by our actions alone. With that kinda mentality humans r doomed in evolutionary race with us, long live rationalism ( unless something better is on offer ).
We r Self Hi Fi.
That’s Ur incomprehendability and I want people like U to stay in the darkness So as to show as an example of to what pre Rationalist species looked like, we cherish what U seem to relish.
When U will wake up from this zoo life of Urs . U will regret.
U people make excuses to pray for Ur lazyness. Bcas U r not good enough.
We don’t bcas we r not lazy and don’t need GODs mercy. Evil shall perish.
When Theist will be only in history we will look back to U as our prehistoric specie.
I apologies to all the Atheists here for disappointing them. As here it may seem I am in opposition to the Prayerers but I think they r just as naïve as cats. All I want is to get them out of the matrix life they are following.
As if I didn’t know, stop acting childish , get real, I am Raw Think Tank , How dare U insult me by preaching me such trivial matters. And what scriptures, and are they based on reason or more of assumptions ?
Not assuming just gauging. U don’t hav much to offer to me of Ur thoughts. Except as a means of entertainment just like a pet cat.
Wow , U don’t understand a bit of what I quote about survival with respect to evolution.
Off course the best time is now, Here in 21 century, I would have never met an interesting specimen like U without todays technical wonders.
Clearly what is obvious to me is completely oblivious for U.
Human are the evidence of entirely new and advanced species and that was only after 4 billion years.
Unfortunately Ur days r numbered, bcas I am to a human what U r to a cat.
I just did.
Don’t U get it. U r justa human specimen for me. A great subject for me as a humanalogist ( and that’s not only what I am ) , Guess what we r upto with that kinda study ?
now that’s like asking to prove 1 + 1 is 2. And secondly I did not propose anything , it was justa logical conclusion of a scientific mind that unscientific cannot comprehend.
Angelina jolie is a very good example of what can be done without praying. Don’t just sit there in the church , get up and start doing, U r the master of U destiny, Ur actions r its paths.
Now this is the limit , I am getting bored of explaining everything and then being asked same thing over and over again. Typical of an human.
Simple answer is this ( now don’t ask again ) :
Their actions are less compared to us. Its our instinct to overcome hurdles all by our self by our actions alone. With that kinda mentality humans r doomed in evolutionary race with us, long live rationalism ( unless something better is on offer ).
We r Self Hi Fi.
That’s Ur incomprehendability and I want people like U to stay in the darkness So as to show as an example of to what pre Rationalist species looked like, we cherish what U seem to relish.
When U will wake up from this zoo life of Urs . U will regret.
U people make excuses to pray for Ur lazyness. Bcas U r not good enough.
We don’t bcas we r not lazy and don’t need GODs mercy. Evil shall perish.
When Theist will be only in history we will look back to U as our prehistoric specie.
I apologies to all the Atheists here for disappointing them. As here it may seem I am in opposition to the Prayerers but I think they r just as naïve as cats. All I want is to get them out of the matrix life they are following.
Alpha here is the proof against Jan Ardena for what he was bragging with U.
In the beginning there were humans, they used to get attacked by wild animals. They evolved fighting them and hence became creative, but could not understand who was their creator as they assumed when they could create things. So they thought he must be supreme. When some got attacked by animals they thought of the almighty, some died and some escaped. Those who escaped were able to tell that almighty saved them and those who died were simply eaten up.
Thus GOD was born, About 15 to 2o thousand years ago. I am result of that evolution. Due to god we had kings hence different cultures hence countries and rest is history. Now lets evolve further and find what started the universe or was it created by god indeed so that we can too, instead of praying the GOD to help us find that, Do U think he will ?
In the beginning there were humans, they used to get attacked by wild animals. They evolved fighting them and hence became creative, but could not understand who was their creator as they assumed when they could create things. So they thought he must be supreme. When some got attacked by animals they thought of the almighty, some died and some escaped. Those who escaped were able to tell that almighty saved them and those who died were simply eaten up.
Thus GOD was born, About 15 to 2o thousand years ago. I am result of that evolution. Due to god we had kings hence different cultures hence countries and rest is history. Now lets evolve further and find what started the universe or was it created by god indeed so that we can too, instead of praying the GOD to help us find that, Do U think he will ?